Please make PRR and AC more useful.

[DrawingGuy]

Under current game mechanics with the new "curve" system, it has created a diminishing return on the buildup of your tanks stats - AC and PRR. Unfortunately it's FAR too sharp a diminishing return. Giving up precious slots to fit in more AC may give a small return assuming you can get your AC into the monster's attack bonus, which is far from low in EE... luckily you only have to more than DOUBLE it to have effect survival AC (which is impossible... so that extra 50-100 AC you're gaining by turtling may earn you 10%). Going full turtle vs just using Mountain stance and a PRR item or two? 10% less damage. So here you find yourself giving up evasion and dodge where both cause you to take ZERO damage and face eat 450 damage while the clothy takes 500 if they get hit. Worth it, right?

With the fact that S&B is already a massive DPS sacrifice, the AC/PRR pass killed the turtle tank. 90% of your survival options come naked as anyone can get displacement clickies and either kiting at ranged or 25% shadow fade is much much much better than taking slightly less damage. We already face the issue of massive damage numbers in EE - unless you have a dedicated healer dumping mana on your head, you can't melee tank them anyways, and if you have that, you might as well have a tankish DPS do it. Who cares if he takes 50 more damage per hit if he's doing more than double the DPS?

For AC, increasing the multiplier shifts the AC into the range where it could be effective in EE. Unfortunately that won't stop it's diminishing return, so the gain of 150 to 200 is about half of that of 100 to 150, but it's still a sharper curve making that gain more worthwhile than it is now.

PRR is the bigger item on the table. There is currently no "glass cannon" vs "tank" - everyone gets gut punched for hundreds of damage, so not getting hit is the entire key. That makes dodge, incorps, concealment, etc a BILLION times more important than PRR. The first 50-70 PRR is of course important as that makes up 50-75% of the PRR survival bonus, but anyone can try to get that... but after that, giving up a single point of dodge, incorp, conceal is a massive survivability loss. The days may be gone of all or nothing AC tanking, but we still should have our tanks. Fully armored 200+ PRR turtles should be getting hit for a tiny fraction of what that robed Sorc is getting hit for - not 10% or 20% less... 80% less. The PRR formula really needs to lose its fractioner - a straight (1 – (0.99^PRR)). This would mean that the tank is soaking up 86% of the damage instead of 56%, but isn't that how it should be? Going tank would make a serious difference, and would justify hard hitting EEs. You really would have your glass cannons that take 500 damage getting 1-2 shotted where the tanks only get hit for 100... because, you know, they're tanks.

The PRR change along would bring the decisions between cloth to heavy armor to the forefront, and I know I'd go from 100% of my chars being light/cloth to a mix.

[redspecter23]

I agree there is definitely an imbalance. Robe wearers can get 40% mitigation from PRR quite easily while the best tankish heavy armor users might push it up to near 60%. Those same robe wearers run around with 25% dodge and the heavy armor wearers cap out at just over 10% with massive investment in gear and enhancements. To get that 10% you'll have to be in one or more defender trees, which signifies that you've already given up DPS to begin with. Monks in earth stance GAIN DPS and defense at the same time and give up very little in the way of enhancements to do so.

It doesn't take a genius to realize that robe wearers are far better off. Add in the "monk factor" with robes and it pulls so far ahead that heavy armor is a joke. If the dodge cap is to stay on heavy armor, a PRR cap should be implemented on robes. From what I can see, with earth stance in particular, the devs actually want to reward players with MORE PRR for going with robes. That boggles my mind. Bare minimum, earth stance should have a dodge cap similar to heavy armor if it's going to give out PRR.

[Munkenmo]

I wonder how well it'd work making the PRR formula work more like this.

Heavy Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.75
Medium Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.65
Light Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.55
Cloth = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.45

This change would also need to introduce the ability to hover over the PRR box in our character sheet to see exactly how much mitigation we're getting.

Edit. for those who don't understand the formula, Here's a comparison as to how it would work compared to the live results.

On live 100PRR = ~41% Damage reduction.
This formula would make 100prr :
47% Damage reduction in Heavy armor
41% Damage reduction in Medium armor
34% Damage reduction in Light armor
28% Damage reduction in Cloth.

[rest]

I wonder how well it'd work making the PRR formula work more like this.

Heavy Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.75
Medium Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.65
Light Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.55
Cloth = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.45

This change would also need to introduce the ability to hover over the PRR box in our character sheet to see exactly how much mitigation we're getting.

Edit. for those who don't understand the formula, Here's a comparison as to how it would work compared to the live results.

On live 100PRR = ~41% Damage reduction.
This formula would make 100prr :
47% Damage reduction in Heavy armor
41% Damage reduction in Medium armor
34% Damage reduction in Light armor
28% Damage reduction in Cloth.

Get out of here with that Mo. Math never solves anything.

[Teh_Troll]

We need a second defensive pass.

[oradafu]

We need a second defensive pass.

Why? It would only take an update or two for the Devs to erode any benefit given to Medium and Heavy Armor so that Monks also get it. We saw that play out during the first defensive pass already. And since the Devs won't erode or nerf Monk stuff, any defensive pass will just eventually lead to Monks getting the benefit for less cost while also being granted full Evasion, Dodge and AC.

[PsychoBlonde]

We need a second defensive pass.

Pretty much. Diminishing returns systems *always* favor defense in depth, which is what you get from playing a monk.

I should add, though, that there's no such thing as getting "in range" of a monster's attack bonus any more, because AC is a calculated system now.

AC and PRR aside, though, one SIMPLE change they could make that would produce an effect very similar to the one you want would be to decrease the BASE damage on eE mobs and increase their CRITICAL damage and also their FORT BYPASS. So, your tank can sit in melee with them and eat their basic damage because he's not going to be getting crits. Non-tanks with only 110% fortification are risking a massive crit whenever they get hit.

The evasion/not evasion thing is not as bad as you might think. You can stack the absorption up there, particularly on a turtle tank--and that's without using stuff like Energy Sheath. It's much harder to get your reflex save high enough to matter for eE even on an evasion toon, and Improved Evasion is much harder to get.

[Teh_Troll]

Why? It would only take an update or two for the Devs to erode any benefit given to Medium and Heavy Armor so that Monks also get it. We saw that play out during the first defensive pass already. And since the Devs won't erode or nerf Monk stuff, any defensive pass will just eventually lead to Monks getting the benefit for less cost while also being granted full Evasion, Dodge and AC.

A certain developer who loved monks like they were his own children no longer works for Turbine.

Just hire me to consult, it'll be Trollerific.

[maddmatt70]

We need a second defensive pass.

Yeah probably. One of the biggest surprises of this pass is after the pass they keep handing out sources of PRR, but not dodge cap for medium or heavy armor wearers. Makes 0 sense why they have done this in this manner. When the defensive pass first occurred it was difficult for light armor wearers and cloth wearers to get a satisfactory PRR. Fast forward to now and it is pretty easy to get a high PRR, but dodge and the dodge cap have received not the same treatment at all. The PRR advances have been through gear, the enhancement pass, and feats, and epic past lives but the dodge cap has not increased at all. It really undermined the first defensive pass with this subsequent activity by the devs. It is pretty obvious to me that the devs that worked on the defensive pass no longer work on DDO and the subsequent devs have undermined their efforts. Shame on you devs because we the player base and the players that play S&B characters have been the recipients of this uninformed approach.

[rimble]

Rather than even specifically saying 'make PRR and AC more useful', I'd rather just back up and say 'make Light/Medium/Heavy Armor and/or Shields more useful/viable/competitive'.

[redspecter23]

Yeah probably. One of the biggest surprises of this pass is after the pass they keep handing out sources of PRR, but not dodge cap for medium or heavy armor wearers. Makes 0 sense why they have done this in this manner. When the defensive pass first occurred it was difficult for light armor wearers and cloth wearers to get a satisfactory PRR. Fast forward to now and it is pretty easy to get a high PRR, but dodge and the dodge cap have received not the same treatment at all. The PRR advances have been through gear, the enhancement pass, and feats, and epic past lives but the dodge cap has not increased at all. It really undermined the first defensive pass with this subsequent activity by the devs. It is pretty obvious to me that the devs that worked on the defensive pass no longer work on DDO and the subsequent devs have undermined their efforts. Shame on you devs because we the player base and the players that play S&B characters have been the recipients of this uninformed approach.

I agree that this seems to be the case. Those that put the defensive system in place didn't expect PRR to spiral out of control. It was likely meant to be something given in greater numbers to heavy armor users through enhancements and gear, but what we got was generic gear and enhancements that grant PRR which means everyone can get similar PRR regardless of your armor choice. The fact that similar across the board bonuses to dodge cap were never done just makes it more apparent that those that made defensive decisions didn't consider all the consequences of just throwing around PRR like candy to any and all characters with armor meaning pretty much nothing.

We really should have seen more "+X PRR if wearing heavy armor" or "+X PRR and +X doublestrike" with a shield equipped. Instead we simply got "+X PRR" and "+X doublestrike" with no restrictions.

[Teh_Troll]

Rather than even specifically saying 'make PRR and AC more useful', I'd rather just back up and say 'make Light/Medium/Heavy Armor and/or Shields more useful/viable/competitive'.

i think the OP is meaning "Make Armor more useful."

All but the most insane monk-fanboi agrees it's weak and should be stronger.

I too would actually like to see AC actually matter. it is the least important number in the layered defense when it should be the most. issue is right now . . . guess who can get really high ACs with little to no offensive sacrifice?

You guessed it . . . monks. In the current dynamics having AC work equals god-mode for monks.

The whole system needs an enema.

[Teh_Troll]

Yeah probably. One of the biggest surprises of this pass is after the pass they keep handing out sources of PRR, but not dodge cap for medium or heavy armor wearers. Makes 0 sense why they have done this in this manner. When the defensive pass first occurred it was difficult for light armor wearers and cloth wearers to get a satisfactory PRR. Fast forward to now and it is pretty easy to get a high PRR, but dodge and the dodge cap have received not the same treatment at all. The PRR advances have been through gear, the enhancement pass, and feats, and epic past lives but the dodge cap has not increased at all. It really undermined the first defensive pass with this subsequent activity by the devs. It is pretty obvious to me that the devs that worked on the defensive pass no longer work on DDO and the subsequent devs have undermined their efforts. Shame on you devs because we the player base and the players that play S&B characters have been the recipients of this uninformed approach.

PRR . . . or the defensive value of PRR . . . should have a multiplicative effect depending on armor type/shield worn.

[oradafu]

PRR . . . or the defensive value of PRR . . . should have a multiplicative effect depending on armor type/shield worn.

Or a PRR Cap that works the reverse of the Dodge cap. Which as Madmatt pointed out seemed to be the original intent of PRR from the beginning.

[Teh_Troll]

Or a PRR Cap that works the reverse of the Dodge cap. Which as Madmatt pointed out seemed to be the original intent of PRR from the beginning.

Quite frankly nerf monks they are the problem.

There are ways to address this without nerfing monks if you so desire.

I think a PRR cap is a bucket of meh and the dodge cap wouldn't have mattered if your actual AC had actually mattered.

[maddmatt70]

Quite frankly nerf monks they are the problem.

There are ways to address this without nerfing monks if you so desire.

I think a PRR cap is a bucket of meh and the dodge cap wouldn't have mattered if your actual AC had actually mattered.

Nerfing monks will not solve the problem because light armor wearers also make out like bandits with the way the current devs run things. If they removed monks from the game the new tanks would be ranger/pally/fighter/rogue combinations.

[DrawingGuy]

We really should have seen more "+X PRR if wearing heavy armor" or "+X PRR and +X doublestrike" with a shield equipped. Instead we simply got "+X PRR" and "+X doublestrike" with no restrictions.

This. Like how Docents grant more AC with higher armor feats, all PRR items should grant more by your armor type. Having shields apply a % bonus to PRR would create a scaling bonus for having heavier armors without granting flat large bonuses to clothy casters that would just hide behind a shield and pew their shiradi missiles.

[Teh_Troll]

Nerfing monks will not solve the problem because light armor wearers also make out like bandits with the way the current devs run things. If they removed monks from the game the new tanks would be ranger/pally/fighter/rogue combinations.

Issue being Heavy Armor not paying off enough? If so I think I see your point.

[Feithlin]

I wonder how well it'd work making the PRR formula work more like this.

Heavy Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.75
Medium Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.65
Light Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.55
Cloth = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.45

This change would also need to introduce the ability to hover over the PRR box in our character sheet to see exactly how much mitigation we're getting.

Edit. for those who don't understand the formula, Here's a comparison as to how it would work compared to the live results.

On live 100PRR = ~41% Damage reduction.
This formula would make 100prr :
47% Damage reduction in Heavy armor
41% Damage reduction in Medium armor
34% Damage reduction in Light armor
28% Damage reduction in Cloth.

/signed
Nice proposition.

I think the introduction of margin of success on attack would make any AC significative (I proposed it several times; if you missed it, the idea is simple: for every X points on to-hit roll above the target AC, you get +1 to damage -- X could be anything between 2 and 5).

[redoubt]

I wonder how well it'd work making the PRR formula work more like this.

Heavy Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.75
Medium Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.65
Light Armor = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.55
Cloth = (1 – (0.99^PRR)) × 0.45

This change would also need to introduce the ability to hover over the PRR box in our character sheet to see exactly how much mitigation we're getting.

Edit. for those who don't understand the formula, Here's a comparison as to how it would work compared to the live results.

On live 100PRR = ~41% Damage reduction.
This formula would make 100prr :
47% Damage reduction in Heavy armor
41% Damage reduction in Medium armor
34% Damage reduction in Light armor
28% Damage reduction in Cloth.

Light armor wearers will take a big hit under this system. I specifically chose light armor over robes to get the PRR bonus. I don't know the right numbers yet, but this change would likely have me trying to shift some prr toward more dodge again, which of course would require me to splash monk to boost my dodge cap...