Enhancement Trees

[SirValentine]

The gating of points spent in tree forces us to waste points on things we do not want. From my experience rebuilding my characters and talking with others between 30% and 50% of the points are wasted on unwanted things.

That was my complaint ever since the alpha, too.

I would say leave "arrow" requirements, but completely dump the points-in-tree requirements. Replace it with just a level or total-points-spent requirement or something. But when we said stuff like that months ago in alpha/beta, it still went live. So saying so now is pointless.

[DeKalbSun]

Even in the old system, didn't you have spend AP on things you didn't nessasarily want to open up the Prestige Enhancements? I recall you also had
to take feats you might not want, which could be really annoying for feat starved classes. I think with the new UI it is easier to see where you spent those points, so maybe it bothers you more? Things change. Either you change with them or you don't. Personally, I didn't like the new system at first, but
playing around with it, it has grown on me and seems much easier to comprehend without having to study the wiki to figure out how to build a
character, and I think that might have been one of the goals. I"ve seen a lot of new players on my server lately, so maybe it is working. New players is a
good thing for an old game.

[Coyopa]

That was my complaint ever since the alpha, too.

I would say leave "arrow" requirements, but completely dump the points-in-tree requirements. Replace it with just a level or total-points-spent requirement or something. But when we said stuff like that months ago in alpha/beta, it still went live. So saying so now is pointless.

We have always had to spend points on things we did not want. You really think I wanted Cleric: Prayer of Incredible Life? Or Improved Heal? There was plenty of stuff in the old system you wasted points on, as well. The new system is much better in this regard. It seems like only some strange class splits would be forced to take things they don't really want. Otherwise, on my 12 characters (10 pure classed, 2 tri-classed) I have managed to only take things I do actually want and will find useful. I am working on a potential fighter/monk/paladin split that it seems will be forced to take some things I wouldn't really want that I feel will prove of limited use, but it is either possible and I will figure it out or it is not possible and that'll be that. There will always be builds you cannot make for one reason or another. The new enhancements have simply changed what is possible.

[Qhualor]

The trees are better than the old enhancements. There are less forced enhancements, but there are still some even for pures. One example is that I have a paladin I am leveling up. I want to focus on KOTC, but for some reason there are 2 enhancement choices that improve turns or do extra damage. Granted its useful against undead, but to get to T2 I have to spend points in it to meet the point requirements. There's only 1 enhancement that I care about in that tier for my build and its not enough points spent to access T2. This is something that should fall under a class tree, not a prestige unless they brought back HOTD.

The old enhancements had the problem of being too front loaded and not adjusted accordingly when cap continuously was raised. It was an old outdated system and that's why certain requirements in feats and enhancements, reflecting more from D&D, eventually became less popular or didn't really add to our builds as DDO continued to change offering more variety and choices.

[Flavilandile]

Even in the old system, didn't you have spend AP on things you didn't nessasarily want to open up the Prestige Enhancements?

Yes, but I don't remember having to spend more than 3/4 points like that overall ( out of 80 ) for each character... While now it's between 15 and 40 points that go away for nothing really useful.

[Coyopa]

Yes, but I don't remember having to spend more than 3/4 points like that overall ( out of 80 ) for each character... While now it's between 15 and 40 points that go away for nothing really useful.

If you are blowing half your action points on things you consider "nothing really useful", then some combination of three things is true:

1. You are building your character wrong.
2. Your character is some crazy class split that only benefits from upper tier enhancements.
3. You have a very narrow definition of which enhancements are "really useful".

Personally, I would lay odds it is some combination of #2 and #3. I would be very interested to know what enhancements you've taken on which builds that you consider to be "nothing really useful".

[Lorianna]

This is not true of the sorcerer trees. As soon as you put points in one element it completely locks you out of being able to put points in the opposing element. So you can have at most 2 class trees.

Currently this is correct, though his complaint that you "can't put points in one tree without massive penalties to another" is false. You don't HAVE to take the core abilities at the bottom (the ones that give you extra spellpower to that element, but have corresponding penalties to the other).

Ranting that the pass has "destroyed customization" is silly. Additionally, the claim that "unless you're on your 4th or 5th past life you don't understand how to build a character?" What? I've never TR'd at all, and I know perfectly well how to build characters, thanks.

The OP is just unhappy, and ranting. The new enhancement system is awesome, in my opinion. It gives TONS of options for characters -- sorcerer is just the one class that got limitations imposed, due to the savant PRcs. And of course, that's apparently the only character he wants to play.

[Flavilandile]

If you are blowing half your action points on things you consider "nothing really useful", then some combination of three things is true:

1. You are building your character wrong.
2. Your character is some crazy class split that only benefits from upper tier enhancements.
3. You have a very narrow definition of which enhancements are "really useful".

Personally, I would lay odds it is some combination of #2 and #3. I would be very interested to know what enhancements you've taken on which builds that you consider to be "nothing really useful".

rofl.
I only play pure classes.
Now I will agree on point #3.

[SirValentine]

We have always had to spend points on things we did not want. You really think I wanted Cleric: Prayer of Incredible Life? Or Improved Heal?There was plenty of stuff in the old system you wasted points on, as well. The new system is much better in this regard.

Under the old system, things had a FEW SPECIFIC prerequisites, some of which were indeed useless.

But the new system is VASTLY worse in this regard. Show me ANYTHING from the old system that required spending 40 AP, repeat, FORTY ACTION POINTS, i.e., a full 50% of your AP, on stuff you don't care about, in order to take a single desired enhancement. (Oh, and it turns out that the desired enhancement is bugged and doesn't work.)

The new enhancements have simply changed what is possible.

Well, obviously. It's a whole different unfinished system from the old unfinished system.

[SirValentine]

The trees are better than the old enhancements.

That's not an opinion I share, but no problem, tastes differ.

There are less forced enhancements

That, on the other hand, is not a matter of opinion or taste. It's simply false.

[uncleblue]

Under the old system, things had a FEW SPECIFIC prerequisites, some of which were indeed useless.

But the new system is VASTLY worse in this regard. Show me ANYTHING from the old system that required spending 40 AP, repeat, FORTY ACTION POINTS, i.e., a full 50% of your AP, on stuff you don't care about, in order to take a single desired enhancement. (Oh, and it turns out that the desired enhancement is bugged and doesn't work.)



Well, obviously. It's a whole different unfinished system from the old unfinished system.

Please explain what you are spending 40 AP on that has no value, and the enhancement you unlocked with that.

Because I think you are exaggerating. A lot.

[Qhualor]

That's not an opinion I share, but no problem, tastes differ.



That, on the other hand, is not a matter of opinion or taste. It's simply false.

to better understand, maybe you need to break down your build, gear and goals because im not seeing as many forced enhancements as you claim. granted i haven't experienced all of the trees, but i don't see half as many forced enhancements as i did from the old enhancements with the trees i have seen and played with. i do see desired enhancements for mixed builds that have to take useless or less than optimal enhancements in order to unlock them, but that's a choice by the player and not a problem with the current system.

[Lorianna]

Under the old system, things had a FEW SPECIFIC prerequisites, some of which were indeed useless.

But the new system is VASTLY worse in this regard. Show me ANYTHING from the old system that required spending 40 AP, repeat, FORTY ACTION POINTS, i.e., a full 50% of your AP, on stuff you don't care about, in order to take a single desired enhancement. (Oh, and it turns out that the desired enhancement is bugged and doesn't work.)

What the heck are you buying that requires you to spend 40 points? A capstone? Because that's the ONLY ability in a prestige line that requires 40 points to unlock. And if you're buying an entire tree JUST for the capstone, with no desire to actually, you know, PLAY that prestige line, I really have to boggle.

What capstone is so important to you that you'd voluntarily gimp your character by taking points in things you have no real intention of even using, just to get it?

[uncleblue]

My main is a Monk.

I no longer have to spend 2 AP for +1 Concentration and +1 Balance with my first 2 AP.

Color me happier.

[Krelar]

My main is a Monk.

I no longer have to spend 2 AP for +1 Concentration and +1 Balance with my first 2 AP.

Color me happier.

My main is a Paladin I now have to spend 2 AP on crappy tier 1 stuff if I want to go anywhere in the KoTC tree. (only thing worth taking at tier 1 is 2 AP in the extra smites)

[Lorianna]

My main is a Paladin I now have to spend 2 AP on crappy tier 1 stuff if I want to go anywhere in the KoTC tree. (only thing worth taking at tier 1 is 2 AP in the extra smites)

Extra turns. More turns = more divine might!

[Qhualor]

My main is a Paladin I now have to spend 2 AP on crappy tier 1 stuff if I want to go anywhere in the KoTC tree. (only thing worth taking at tier 1 is 2 AP in the extra smites)

yes I agree. up above I said the same thing but I couldn't think of what T1 enhancements were. this is what I was saying.

[SirValentine]

What the heck are you buying that requires you to spend 40 points? A capstone?

That's right, all capstones are 40. And all Tier 5s are 30, which isn't a whole lot better. Were there ANY single enhancements in the old system that had 40, or even just 30, AP worth of pre-requisites? No, there were not.

...buying an entire tree JUST for the capstone, with no desire to actually, you know, PLAY that prestige line, I really have to boggle.
...
...gimp your character by taking points in things you have no real intention of even using...

That's my point...because you can't just take what you want, with moderate reasonable pre-requisites, you have to spend a huge boatload of points to get a thing you want. It is simple fact that pre-requisites are much steeper. Even if you decide the cost is too steep, that still is the choice offered.

(That much, much higher cost is also, in many cases, combined with much, much, LOWER power than the old Prestige Enhancements had. Now, you get a single ability. Before, you got a whole package of abilities for 4 or even just 2 AP. The rest of the package now all has to be bought separately.)

[Qhualor]

Extra turns. More turns = more divine might!

with 43 cha!

[Coyopa]

That's right, all capstones are 40. And all Tier 5s are 30, which isn't a whole lot better. Were there ANY single enhancements in the old system that had 40, or even just 30, AP worth of pre-requisites? No, there were not.



That's my point...because you can't just take what you want, with moderate reasonable pre-requisites, you have to spend a huge boatload of points to get a thing you want. It is simple fact that pre-requisites are much steeper. Even if you decide the cost is too steep, that still is the choice offered.

(That much, much higher cost is also, in many cases, combined with much, much, LOWER power than the old Prestige Enhancements had. Now, you get a single ability. Before, you got a whole package of abilities for 4 or even just 2 AP. The rest of the package now all has to be bought separately.)

lol. You have absolutely taken trolling to an art form! There is no way you can avoid getting stuff that is beneficial for your build while also getting the capstone - even if you could, no one in their right mind is going to blow 40 AP on enhancements they do not want just to get the capstone. When you look at the old system, there were enhancements that required 40+ AP worth of pre-requisites! The capstones required 72 or 74 AP spent. Most level 12 prestige enhancements required 42 or 44. The pre-requisites now are much less steep than they used to be.

Anyway, bravo on an excellent troll post!