Enhancement Trees

[Philibusta]

I think it'd be cool if someone could come up with a reasonable explanation of why my Ranger18/Rogue2 had to buy a useless Great Crossbow enhancement out of the Mechanic line just to get access to a Disable Device/Open Lock skill boost.....

[Coyopa]

I think it'd be cool if someone could come up with a reasonable explanation of why my Ranger18/Rogue2 had to buy a useless Great Crossbow enhancement out of the Mechanic line just to get access to a Disable Device/Open Lock skill boost.....

Because you thought Improved Traps did something for your trapping skills, when it does not.

+1 to the save DC's of Alchemical Trap Attacks and Magical Traps. Elemental Traps that you place now have a DC equal to 65%/80%/100% of your Disable Device Skill instead of 50%.

As you can see, it boosts the save DC's of traps YOU place and how hard traps YOU place are to disable. It has nothing to do with boosting your disable device skill or your saves against traps. So, effectively, you have spent AP on two enhancements that are worthless for you (unless you are planning on placing a lot of traps, which I doubt). As far as why those two are still related? I think it is an oversight they probably consider too low a priority to change because the Lacerating Shots enhancement used to be an enhancement that increased the speed at which you searched/disabled and the distance you could be from the trap and still find it.

[Lorianna]

That's right, all capstones are 40. And all Tier 5s are 30, which isn't a whole lot better. Were there ANY single enhancements in the old system that had 40, or even just 30, AP worth of pre-requisites? No, there were not.

Yes, yes there were. Many of them. About 85-90% of all the enhancement abilities had point requirements. Many of them required 40, 50, 60 even 70 points to be spent before you could unlock them.

And again, I have to ask: exactly what capstone are you so adamant about taking that you don't want ANYTHING else from the entire tree?

That's my point...because you can't just take what you want, with moderate reasonable pre-requisites, you have to spend a huge boatload of points to get a thing you want. It is simple fact that pre-requisites are much steeper. Even if you decide the cost is too steep, that still is the choice offered.

So you can't just pick the best powers from the various prestige lines and completely min-max your character, and you're upset about this? Come on now. That's not being reasonable, that's being greedy.

(That much, much higher cost is also, in many cases, combined with much, much, LOWER power than the old Prestige Enhancements had. Now, you get a single ability. Before, you got a whole package of abilities for 4 or even just 2 AP. The rest of the package now all has to be bought separately.)

Because the old prestige powers were borked in many ways. Lots of them offered a HUGE amount of power for a trivial amount of points. Others offered more modest bonuses, but had hefty prereqs. It wasn't balanced.

[SirValentine]

Yes, yes there were. Many of them. About 85-90% of all the enhancement abilities had point requirements. Many of them required 40, 50, 60 even 70 points to be spent before you could unlock them.

No, those were total points spent on EVERYTHING requirements, which basically just made them level requirements. If our new system worked like that, no problem. But instead you have to spend 30 or 40 points only in one specific narrow little tree. The actual pre-requisites on the old enhancements were much, much lower.

And again, I have to ask: exactly what capstone are you so adamant about taking that you don't want ANYTHING else from the entire tree?

What, so you can tell me my build sucks or something? Whatever. It doesn't really matter, because they ALL use the same flawed system.

So you can't just pick the best powers from the various prestige lines and completely min-max your character, and you're upset about this? Come on now. That's not being reasonable, that's being greedy.

They are NOT prestiges, not like prestige classes in P&P, nor like the prestige enhancements we used to have. They are merely arbitrary groupings of abilities. Abilities that were generic to a class before, and had nothing to do with a prestige, are now meaninglessly grouped into a prestige-named tree.

Because the old prestige powers were borked in many ways. Lots of them offered a HUGE amount of power for a trivial amount of points. Others offered more modest bonuses, but had hefty prereqs. It wasn't balanced.

Yeah. They should have fixed and finished the old unbalanced unfinished system. Now, we have an new unbalanced unfinished system.

[SirValentine]

When you look at the old system, there were enhancements that required 40+ AP worth of pre-requisites! The capstones required 72 or 74 AP spent. Most level 12 prestige enhancements required 42 or 44. The pre-requisites now are much less steep than they used to be.

Those were points spent on ANYTHING, not specific prerequisites like we have now, where only points in the limited selection of one specific tree count.

Call me a troll all you like, but it's still true. The prerequisites are much harsher now.

[Lorianna]

No, those were total points spent on EVERYTHING requirements, which basically just made them level requirements. If our new system worked like that, no problem. But instead you have to spend 30 or 40 points only in one specific narrow little tree. The actual pre-requisites on the old enhancements were much, much lower.

And much of the current ones are essentially level reqs, too. Except the level reqs are much, MUCH lower.

What, so you can tell me my build sucks or something? Whatever. It doesn't really matter, because they ALL use the same flawed system.

No, because I'm curious exactly what capstone you're so hung up on that you don't want anything else from the entire tree. What about that capstone is so vital to your build that the entire rest of the tree is "garbage" to you?

They are NOT prestiges, not like prestige classes in P&P, nor like the prestige enhancements we used to have. They are merely arbitrary groupings of abilities. Abilities that were generic to a class before, and had nothing to do with a prestige, are now meaninglessly grouped into a prestige-named tree.

They're actually more like P&P prestige classes than the old system were, by a lot. The old system allowed you to get an entire prestige class (more or less) for about 8 points, with varying pre-reqs. PrCs in P&P are entirely new abilities, and you stop gaining your original class abilities while you're in the PrC.

Yeah. They should have fixed and finished the old unbalanced unfinished system. Now, we have an new unbalanced unfinished system.

As I said, I find this system vastly superior to the old one. Just about every character I have has improved, gaining new flexibility, new power, and overall being more fun to play.

[Coyopa]

No, because I'm curious exactly what capstone you're so hung up on that you don't want anything else from the entire tree. What about that capstone is so vital to your build that the entire rest of the tree is "garbage" to you?

This is why I want to know what it is you want. If you're wasting 40 points on junk to get a capstone, then I don't need to know which capstone to tell you your build is garbage. You've already said as much by denigrating the enhancements you selected. So, I am just curious what capstone is a 'must-have' for you such that you are willing to waste 40 AP to get it.

[Lorianna]

This is why I want to know what it is you want. If you're wasting 40 points on junk to get a capstone, then I don't need to know which capstone to tell you your build is garbage. You've already said as much by denigrating the enhancements you selected. So, I am just curious what capstone is a 'must-have' for you such that you are willing to waste 40 AP to get it.

The only thing I can compare it to is someone taking 10 levels of rogue JUST for improved evasion, and saying, "I don't even WANT all those rogue levels. I don't want to deal with traps, I don't want to sneak, I don't want to backstab...I JUST want improved evasion, and the game made me sink 10 levels into useless garbage to get it."

[uncleblue]

Seriously, guys, stop feeding the troll.

He's just winding you up.

[Philibusta]

Because you thought Improved Traps did something for your trapping skills, when it does not.



As you can see, it boosts the save DC's of traps YOU place and how hard traps YOU place are to disable. It has nothing to do with boosting your disable device skill or your saves against traps. So, effectively, you have spent AP on two enhancements that are worthless for you (unless you are planning on placing a lot of traps, which I doubt). As far as why those two are still related? I think it is an oversight they probably consider too low a priority to change because the Lacerating Shots enhancement used to be an enhancement that increased the speed at which you searched/disabled and the distance you could be from the trap and still find it.

*Sigh* I'm talking about the enhancement in the first tier of Mechanic that gives you a +1/2/3 to your Disable Device, Open Lock, and Repair Skills. The enhancement is called "Mechanics", not "Improved Traps". Improved Traps is a second-tier enhancement.

I had to buy the first Core enhancement (Arbalester - "Increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot range by 5 meters. You also gain proficiency with great crossbows.") in order to gain access to buy the Mechanic enhancement to boost my Disable/Open Locks.

Which makes NO sense. I have to what? Learn how to fire a great crossbow, so that I can take training to become better at opening locks and disabling traps? lolwut???

[Coyopa]

*Sigh* I'm talking about the enhancement in the first tier of Mechanic that gives you a +1/2/3 to your Disable Device, Open Lock, and Repair Skills. The enhancement is called "Mechanics", not "Improved Traps". Improved Traps is a second-tier enhancement.

I had to buy the first Core enhancement (Arbalester - "Increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot range by 5 meters. You also gain proficiency with great crossbows.") in order to gain access to buy the Mechanic enhancement to boost my Disable/Open Locks.

To avoid aggravation, please in the future refrain from posting like you know what youre talking about...until you actually know what youre talking about.

Well, that first core enhancement is actually not completely useless to you. It increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot range by 5 meters, even when using a bow or thrown weapon. The proficiency with great crossbows is not the primary purpose of that ability and is there for flavor and to open up different builds. Granted, the point blank shot range probably doesn't matter with thrown weapons, but the sneak attack range certainly does as I have tested this. Now, if you aren't using a bow, then it won't do anything for you. However, that is the price of admission to use abilities in that tree and you may just be surprised by how useful it may prove to be. I had to take the second core ability in mechanic on my rogue to get to the 3rd and I was not at all excited about Tanglefoot. However, that has proved surprisingly useful.

As far as not posting unless I know what I'm talking about, how about you climb down off your high horse there, Napoleon? I'm not a psychic and you did not specify exactly which enhancement you were referencing. Since you specified great crossbows, it's pretty reasonable to infer you're referring to Lacerating Shots since it is explicitly related to great crossbows and because it leads into an ability that talks about traps and disable device.

[Philibusta]

Well, that first core enhancement is actually not completely useless to you. It increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot range by 5 meters, even when using a bow or thrown weapon. The proficiency with great crossbows is not the primary purpose of that ability and is there for flavor and to open up different builds. Granted, the point blank shot range probably doesn't matter with thrown weapons, but the sneak attack range certainly does as I have tested this. Now, if you aren't using a bow, then it won't do anything for you. However, that is the price of admission to use abilities in that tree and you may just be surprised by how useful it may prove to be. I had to take the second core ability in mechanic on my rogue to get to the 3rd and I was not at all excited about Tanglefoot. However, that has proved surprisingly useful.

As far as not posting unless I know what I'm talking about, how about you climb down off your high horse there, Napoleon? I'm not a psychic and you did not specify exactly which enhancement you were referencing. Since you specified great crossbows, it's pretty reasonable to infer you're referring to Lacerating Shots since it is explicitly related to great crossbows and because it leads into an ability that talks about traps and disable device.

First off, sorry about that whole "unless you know what youre talking about" thing. I edited that part out, probably while you were typing your reply cause I realized that was kinda....well....d-baggy. Sorry bout that.

Secondly, I did specify that I had to take the crossbow enhancement to gain access to a Disable Device/Open Lock Skill boost. Improved Traps does NOT boost your Skills, the Mechanic enhancement does.

[Coyopa]

Which makes NO sense. I have to what? Learn how to fire a great crossbow, so that I can take training to become better at opening locks and disabling traps? lolwut???

Actually, it does make sense if you think about it from a flavor perspective: a crossbow is a kind of mechanical device. Mechanic rogues geek out on mechanical devices. Since there are only great crossbows and repeating crossbows in the game, then that makes great crossbows the simplest of these kinds of devices. It makes complete sense that it would be the first kind of these devices a mechanic would learn about and become proficient with. Once they're familiar with those, then they move on to learn about light repeaters and then heavy repeaters, gaining proficiency with those along the way. These proficiencies are ancillary skills that mechanic rogues pick up along the way while they learn the main thrust of their craft: traps and making/disabling them.

[Coyopa]

Secondly, I did specify that I had to take the crossbow enhancement to gain access to a Disable Device/Open Lock Skill boost. Improved Traps does NOT boost your Skills, the Mechanic enhancement does.

Yes, but I have talked to other people in game that thought Improved Traps helped their disable device skill and their ability to resist traps. Granted, there is no way you could possibly have this information since you weren't part of those conversations. Nonetheless, given this information, I am sure you can see why I drew the conclusion I did.

[Philibusta]

Yes, but I have talked to other people in game that thought Improved Traps helped their disable device skill and their ability to resist traps. Granted, there is no way you could possibly have this information since you weren't part of those conversations. Nonetheless, given this information, I am sure you can see why I drew the conclusion I did.

Yeah. Still, though, it makes no sense to me that I had to take an enhancement that is for xbows and point blank shot (i dont think it'll help me that way either, btw, because I don't think I have the Point Blank Shot feat...I may, the toon IS a ranger....) in order to get access to an enhancement for trapping skills. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. I know, thats the way the system is. And it was only one AP I had to spend, so....meh. lol Still doesnt make sense though.

Actually, it does make sense if you think about it from a flavor perspective: a crossbow is a kind of mechanical device. Mechanic rogues geek out on mechanical devices. Since there are only great crossbows and repeating crossbows in the game, then that makes great crossbows the simplest of these kinds of devices. It makes complete sense that it would be the first kind of these devices a mechanic would learn about and become proficient with. Once they're familiar with those, then they move on to learn about light repeaters and then heavy repeaters, gaining proficiency with those along the way. These proficiencies are ancillary skills that mechanic rogues pick up along the way while they learn the main thrust of their craft: traps and making/disabling them.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

[SirValentine]

This is why I want to know what it is you want. If you're wasting 40 points on junk to get a capstone, then I don't need to know which capstone to tell you your build is garbage. You've already said as much by denigrating the enhancements you selected. So, I am just curious what capstone is a 'must-have' for you such that you are willing to waste 40 AP to get it.

Still missing the point by trying to talk about some specific build or capstone. They are all the same way.

The point is that ANY capstone NOW requires 40 points of prerequisites only from one specific tree where they previously had no specific requirements at all. And many abilities that were part of prestige enhancements that previously had only 10 or 15 points worth of prerequisites now have 30 points of prerequisites (while doing less). We had much more flexibility on how to spend our Action Points in the old system.

Yeah, lots of people like the fact that some things got made more powerful. But that doesn't change the fact that we're now straight-jacketed only into these cookie-cutter trees instead of being able to mix and match all of our class enhancements like we could before.

[IronClan]

What the heck are you buying that requires you to spend 40 points? A capstone? Because that's the ONLY ability in a prestige line that requires 40 points to unlock. And if you're buying an entire tree JUST for the capstone, with no desire to actually, you know, PLAY that prestige line, I really have to boggle.

What capstone is so important to you that you'd voluntarily gimp your character by taking points in things you have no real intention of even using, just to get it?

I can answer this, you see I just happened onto their post on the Lam forums in the Warpriest thread talking about spending 40 points in Warpriest because that gives them the capstone of +2 Wis. On their DC casting focused Divine caster that does not melee.

They want +5% better DC so much they are willing to throw 40 points into the toilet.

So yes the answer is they are voluntarily gimping themselves to improve a DC on a casting class that only really sports implosion, greater command and Destruction as useful DC based spells. and they are doing all that to improve their chances of landing the spell by 5%

5% for 40 AP's

PS I guess he's getting the tier 3 and 4 WIS enhancements from that tree too assuming it has WIS and not STR/CON but still that's 18AP's for 5%

[Philibusta]

I hate to kick a dead horse, but...

It seems to me, that SirValentine's problem with the trees, and a lot of other peoples' problems with the trees, could be solved, and a whole lot of build variety could be added to the game, if the Devs would just do one simple thing and change the AP requirements from "AP spent in tree" to "AP spent total".

[Coyopa]

@SirValentine, between this:

Still missing the point by trying to talk about some specific build or capstone. They are all the same way.

The point is that ANY capstone NOW requires 40 points of prerequisites only from one specific tree where they previously had no specific requirements at all. And many abilities that were part of prestige enhancements that previously had only 10 or 15 points worth of prerequisites now have 30 points of prerequisites (while doing less). We had much more flexibility on how to spend our Action Points in the old system.

Yeah, lots of people like the fact that some things got made more powerful. But that doesn't change the fact that we're now straight-jacketed only into these cookie-cutter trees instead of being able to mix and match all of our class enhancements like we could before.

and this:

I can answer this, you see I just happened onto their post on the Lam forums in the Warpriest thread talking about spending 40 points in Warpriest because that gives them the capstone of +2 Wis. On their DC casting focused Divine caster that does not melee.

They want +5% better DC so much they are willing to throw 40 points into the toilet.

So yes the answer is they are voluntarily gimping themselves to improve a DC on a casting class that only really sports implosion, greater command and Destruction as useful DC based spells. and they are doing all that to improve their chances of landing the spell by 5%

5% for 40 AP's

I know you're trolling and IronClan's post proves I'm right. You can claim that level 12 and 18 prestige enhancements had lower AP-expenditure requirements, but this is simply untrue. While there may have been only 10 or 15 APs spent that were directly required to obtain prerequisites required for the prestige enhancement, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that you could not spend *only* those 10 or 15 AP and still get the prestige enhancement. Now, if you could have spent only 10 or 15 AP to get the level 12 prestige enhancement, then I would agree the requirements for the enhancements now are greatly increased. However, this was not the case. You had to spend 42 or 44 AP to get the level 12 prestige enhancement, of which 10 or 15 were directly required by relevant prerequisites. Likewise, you cannot truthfully claim there were no specific requirements at all before because there were. The enhancements explicitly stated you had to spend a certain number of AP before you could purchase them - and these requirements started as early as level 2 or 3 in most cases, escalating as you increased in level.

As far as being strait-jacketed, we simply are not. I have a second life ranger/monk/rogue who uses long swords and is actually a good build now with the new enhancements. With the old enhancements, he was fun, but completely a flavor build that nobody but me would ever have bothered with. My 3rd life rogue is built as an assassin, having been a mechanic for his first life. After changing him at level 21 to be an assassin in his first life, I never looked at mechanic again. However, with the new enhancements, mechanic looks good enough that I am seriously considering making another rogue - and that is something I would never have considered before. I've met assassins who are really enjoying the poison enhancements, whereas I am completely avoiding them. You've got to get a little creative now because there are new possibilities that have opened up. As far as your cleric goes, while I have not seen the Warpriest prestige, I would say that if you've got nothing else in Warpriest you like, then why not focus on a tree you do like and take that capstone since they all offer +2 wisdom?

[Coyopa]

I hate to kick a dead horse, but...

It seems to me, that SirValentine's problem with the trees, and a lot of other peoples' problems with the trees, could be solved, and a whole lot of build variety could be added to the game, if the Devs would just do one simple thing and change the AP requirements from "AP spent in tree" to "AP spent total".

Well, you do realize the net effect would be they would simply return to requiring the much higher AP expenditures in order to take the enhancements, right?