Enhancement Trees

[Daangerousda]

Having logged in to find all my families accounts missing enhancements, I was forced to try and rebuild all our characters. I found the new tree system extremely limiting especially for my sorcerer. I am on my 7th life as a sorc, 3 past life sorc, 3 past life Wizzy, I tried all and hated every single savant and instead ran a full range sorc specializing in Necromancy and Enchantment. Now my build and game play have been destroyed. There is no way to be a full range sorc any longer. People talk about the game offering more options now? I don't see that at all. In fact , now I am forced to be something I don't want , as are my daughters, and I cannot use all elements without huge penalties. I cannot even access arcane enhancements without becoming a savant. All the separate element enhancements are gone, all customization is gone, everyone is the same now , Every single sorcerer is a Savant, sorry, thats just ******** and not DnD. Its just like Rift, Aion, and all games using the tree system. This is not D&D at all . I will not continue investing anymore money in it unless some sort of option to use the old system is re-installed. I find the tree system a mockery of the game, a perversion for simpletons who have not yet learned all their options to begin with. I refuse to be a savant sorc and hate all other class's, so I'm left with nothing the game has to offer me anymore. Fix it please, I don't want to play D&D for dummies. I have spent over a thousand dollars over the past couple years and now you kill my character. Any Sorcerer should have access to arcane enhancements without opting for a specialist, that is DnD rules. Its all about customization, not this presto prestige BS you have going on now. The key to longevity of DnD has always been its vastness in customization. You just killed that.

[Deadlock]

I will not continue investing anymore money in it unless some sort of option to use the old system is re-installed.

If you're asking for a roll-back to the pre-enhancement changes, it'll never happen. Nor should it.

The way forward is to for the enhancement system to evolve and to lose some of the weaknesses.

For Sorcerers that means an extra tree, which could be Acolyte of the Skin.

It could mean upping their Universal Spell Power to 1 USP per point in tree in addition to the 10 savant specific per core ability.

It could mean reducing the penalty from -10 in the opposing element to -5 and the -CL being every 2nd core ability, and their capstone eliminating these penalties completely as they have gained mastery of their element.

Racial enhancements should be based on Total AP Spent.

And the more I put together build options the more I'm convinced that you should get 1 AP per rank for a total of 95 AP instead of 80.

But you'll never see a roll-back on such a fundamental change.

[Daangerousda]

BTW, I have logged in several times the past couple weeks to look for friends , and I see very few, and not a single one likes this enhancement tree system, many have quit , as I have. The servers are dead, and with this copycat simple tree system, even new players will get bored very quickly. The couple friends I did catch online also dislike the system and their builds are broken. They too are being forced to play something they don't want. these are people with characters that have 10 past lives. I'm disgusted at what you have done to the game and hope you bring back the "CUSTOM BUILD" option that made this game great. Funny how 'Custom " build used to be "recommended for experienced players only" . Now its gone, and so are the experienced players. I will not be recommending the game any longer. Look at how dead the game has become, how empty the groups and servers are, and how quickly boredom sets in with this simplification. Its plain to see. The death of the best RPG, MMO is at hand if its not fixed I suspect.

[Soulfurnace]

I love the enhancement pass. It needs work, yes. But it's greatly allowed me to build new things - things I could never have done. I don't play casters (unless staff clerics and unarmed pale masters count?), so I can't comment on that, but in general, my builds all became better.

Not one of my friends is complaining after a few hours spent playing with enhancements. Even the one who had a nerfed main (bard) still likes the enhancement pass - all because it opens up more options, if you feel like looking for them.

Still, you won't get a rollback. Just to say.

[Daangerousda]

If you're asking for a roll-back to the pre-enhancement changes, it'll never happen. Nor should it.

The way forward is to for the enhancement system to evolve and to lose some of the weaknesses.

For Sorcerers that means an extra tree, which could be Acolyte of the Skin.

It could mean upping their Universal Spell Power to 1 USP per point in tree in addition to the 10 savant specific per core ability.

It could mean reducing the penalty from -10 in the opposing element to -5 and the -CL being every 2nd core ability, and their capstone eliminating these penalties completely as they have gained mastery of their element.

Racial enhancements should be based on Total AP Spent.

And the more I put together build options the more I'm convinced that you should get 1 AP per rank for a total of 95 AP instead of 80.

But you'll never see a roll-back on such a fundamental change.

Did someone say anything about a roll back? It was not me, but maybe voiced in your head. Years ago I selected "custom Build" when I created my first life sorc, then Savants were introduced, everyone tried them, I did not like them and quickly respeced to my custom full range sorc. Now The game forces every sorc to be a savant. Is this not clearly sort of idiotic? What was once a prestige you had to learn to do is now mandatory for the class. And the same goes for all the classes in our guild. Not a single character is what my kids want. That is the point. An OPTION (to say again for those with voices in their heads) to use the old style "Custom " build cannot be so hard to create, since it existed before.
I understand you all think making it easier to understand the feats and enhancements should attract a broader range of players. But I don't believe that is why DDO had so many long term players and people investing in the game. The attraction is the learning curve in custom builds. Going from fubar first life to exceptional 4th life custom was a great learning adventure you shared with your friends. That is dead now. Clumping skills into a jumble, stacking them together, only means I'm being forced to take things i don't want to get one I do. Like the Jump skill, now its "tumble, jump, and balance", and I can only take it 3 times. Every single tiny detail that made my character special, and specific to my play style is gone now. How can this even be considered a step forward? The game lost a good paying customer in me and my 2 daughters. We don't like being forced to play your way. So, in response to your "Roll Back" comments, yes that would be best in my opinion, but not realistic. Now the game needs a constant stream of "custom" non prestige class enhancement trees. It needs the customization it once had. And don't tell me the numbers have gone up, and the new system is loved , a real game improvement, because that is a lie. I have met no one who likes it, not a single person. But several that think "Bla" , that is a direct quote.

And if your not a 4th or 5th life TR your very new, you should not know how to make a prestige yet, that was the beauty of it. You see, now any idiot can make a prestige character, its DnD for dummies, but your obviously youthful, because you should be able to see how quickly you will use up the trees and become bored. There is nothing to learn, no way to be different, unique. Your just another prestige exactly like your buddy who will quit playing in a few months out of boredom. I've been a loyal customer for over 4 years, until now. And many others with over 10 past lives are gone now too. Why you think that is? Bring Custom Back, don't force prestige. Allow people to be creative, for better or worse, its their money.

[Deadlock]

Wow, that's a lot of anger directed at someone who replied to your post.

I think I'll just leave you to your ranting.

Have a nice day.

[Gremmlynn]

And if your not a 4th or 5th life TR your very new, you should not know how to make a prestige yet, that was the beauty of it. You see, now any idiot can make a prestige character, its DnD for dummies, but your obviously youthful, because you should be able to see how quickly you will use up the trees and become bored. There is nothing to learn, no way to be different, unique. Your just another prestige exactly like your buddy who will quit playing in a few months out of boredom. I've been a loyal customer for over 4 years, until now. And many others with over 10 past lives are gone now too. Why you think that is? Bring Custom Back, don't force prestige. Allow people to be creative, for better or worse, its their money.

I'm thinking if it took 4 or 5 past lives to figure out what was good and what wasn't, that would be the definition of D&D for dummies.

But what do I know as I'm very new, despite having played for 4 years now, since I've never seen past life feats or a few creation points worth re-leveling for.

[Wanesa]

BTW, I have logged in several times the past couple weeks to look for friends , and I see very few, and not a single one likes this enhancement tree system, many have quit , as I have. The servers are dead, and with this copycat simple tree system, even new players will get bored very quickly.

/not agree

Servers are not dead, servers are full and lagging (!)
Enhancements are better then before.
You don't need to be savant, you can pick any enhancement from any tree. You don't need to pick all core abilities from one tree, you are not forced to fill up one tree complete. Pick what do you want.
There is still option to reset tree anytime you want. You can reset particular tree, not all enhancements. This allows you to fine-tune enhancements as you progress in the game. You can respec. enhancements literally before every quest. You no longer need to visit trainer. (yeah, i know there is a price for reset, but this is not problem for experienced player)

[Soulfurnace]

1) And if your not a 4th or 5th life TR your very new, you should not know how to make a prestige yet, that was the beauty of it. You see, now any idiot can make a prestige character, its DnD for dummies, but your obviously youthful, because you should be able to see how quickly you will use up the trees and become bored.

2) There is nothing to learn, no way to be different, unique. Your just another prestige exactly like your buddy who will quit playing in a few months out of boredom. I've been a loyal customer for over 4 years, until now. And many others with over 10 past lives are gone now too.

3) Why you think that is? Bring Custom Back, don't force prestige. Allow people to be creative, for better or worse, its their money.

(Bolded in red by me, just to list points I'm replying to.)

1) I worked out prestige on my first life. I looked at every available enhancement, worked out they are awesome and got Tempest I at level 6. Not hard. Any idiot, such as I, could make one on a first life. I'm fascinated by the new trees - so many options. Before it was enhancements + 1 prestige per class, with heavy limits. Now it's 6 prestiges (max) - but the definition of prestige has changed. The enhancements are just spread out, but as you can take from more than one tree, you still net a profit 95% of the time.

2) Plenty of ways to be unique. Come up with a different idea, rather than the same old build. I'm working on an unarmed palemaster - new enhancements have given me some serious room for manipulation of ideas.

3) Custom is here - you just don't see it. You see prestiges as something you can only have 1 of. The old enhancements are still there (95% of the time), just in different trees. But seeming you get 6 trees, you can get most, if not all, of what you lost. Most classes, even pure, net a profit overall.

[Zakharov]

Most of you are missing the point - op feels strangled by the new system because there are no general "sorcerer" enhancements anymore, with savant being a side option. Now savant is the only option possible. This definitely is a reduction in customization for Sorcerers.

Most classes fare better but the Sorcerer trees are a prime example of the biggest flaw in this system IMO - no general class trees. That seemed to be the main thing everyone agreed on back when they were first asking for feedback about this system last year but that's not the direction they went.. we have general enhancements and capstones tied to prestige lines which can screw over many generalist builds.

Deadlock mentioned adding Acolyte of the Skin could help overcome this but I hope they don't go the route of dumping all the general-ish enhancement into one tree since it could have many cool potential abilities that there might not be room for otherwise. Wizard has this problem atm with Archmage being sort of the "generalist" tree where they really should have added more unique abilities instead. Sorcerers really need 2 more trees to feel complete and fit all the options I think OP is looking for.

For Sorcerer specifically a couple ways to fix the customization problem:

1. Condense Savant down to 1 tree - it's basically just 1 tree anyway that's been copy/pasted a few times. Then add 2 additional completely unique trees to flesh out the Sorc options. Acolyte is already anticipated but there are tons of other potentials as well.

2. Allow us to invest in all trees rather than locking us out of the opposing element. Maybe I want to spend points evenly in all 4 trees so that the bonuses & penalties even out - then I may have a more general elementalist. Add the 2 extra trees anyway since we need more flavor than just variants on Savant.


No matter what you do with Savant we really need 2 more unique trees for the Sorcerer to feel fleshed out and have a good variety of pure class build options. Yeah there are multi-class options but really every class should have 3 completely uniquely different prestige trees to feel complete. There are clear differences in customization options between classes that have fully fleshed out trees vs those that don't.


Sidenote suggestion: In the far off future maybe Sorcerers should be asked to choose a 'feat' at lvl 1 representing their lineage similar to divine casters selecting a deity. The ancestral lineage could limit and/or open up new enhancement options depending on your background. This could help extend customization options also.

[Coyopa]

...snip some ranting...

Your posts are so full of fail it's funny. Take a little while to read through all the new enhancements, use some of your self-professed creativity and make your characters better than they were before. The only exception to this that I can see might be your sorc since I know they do not yet have all the trees they are supposed to have, but I believe those are slated for the next patch (as is Warpriest for cleric, if I understand the devs correctly).

If your children and you play pretty much anything else, you can not only recreate their build pretty much exactly, but you can get extra abilities you could not before.

As for your statement about anyone without a 4th or 5th level character being a noob, well, you're just an elitist jackalope there, aren't you? The game was never that hard to get to grips with, even with the old enhancement system - and that is coming from someone that took a while to realize there were even prestiges in the game (a paladin, ranger, *and* cleric first life each to about level 12). At this point, I have:

- a 23rd level first life bard
- a 24th level second life monk
- a 16th level second life cleric
- a 20th level first life barbarian
- a 25th level second life ranger
- a 25th level first life druid
- a 16th level third life rogue
- a 16th level second life ranger/monk/rogue (first life was fighter/monk/rogue)
- a 22nd level first life wizard
- a 16th level first life fighter
- a 14th level first life rogue/monk/fighter
- a 20th level first life artificer

TR'ing does not make you a good player. Rather, the breadth of knowledge of classes, quests, monsters, and tactics does. I'd say I am doing pretty well on that.

[Clatterfist]

It's unfortunate that you don't feel like your old playstyle is supported anymore, but I'd recommend taking some time to experiment with the new system and seeing what other sorts of build you can come up with, because the general situation allows for much more customisation and combination, particularly where it comes to multi-classing. Even in the specific case of sorcerer savants, the mere fact that you get universal USP for every point spent means you can do things under the new system that you couldn't under the old one - you mention having enjoyed necromancy, for example...well, now you have access to a reasonable amount of negative-typed spell power. You didn't have that before. You can still take whatever feats you like, you can potentially take tier five enhancements for another class after spending only five levels in it, and you can invest more deeply into more compelling racial trees. Want to give your sorcerer an edge with enchantment spells? Play him as an elf, they can get +1 to enchantment spell DC, +100 SP and +3 spell penetration. You couldn't do that before, either.

I'd like to see a non-elemental sorcerer tree too, but the glass is more than half full, here.

[darkrhavyn]

/not agree

Servers are not dead, servers are full and lagging (!)
Enhancements are better then before.
You don't need to be savant, you can pick any enhancement from any tree. You don't need to pick all core abilities from one tree, you are not forced to fill up one tree complete. Pick what do you want.
There is still option to reset tree anytime you want. You can reset particular tree, not all enhancements. This allows you to fine-tune enhancements as you progress in the game. You can respec. enhancements literally before every quest. You no longer need to visit trainer. (yeah, i know there is a price for reset, but this is not problem for experienced player)

Youre missing his point....before this update you could have a character who never took the PrE and took NO deficits to another elemental damge type...could you jack up caster levels no, but you didn't have to specialize in fire to the exclusion of any benefit to ice. You could specialize in a force line which has NO option now. I get what he is saying as the enhancement pass completely broke a couple of my favorite characters. I simple CANT make them work the way they did...largely because there is no CORE to any class, just PrE trees. LOts of characters did get buffs...but anyone who played a non savant sorcerer simply cant anymore.

[ddo.rsmo.pt]

What the OP is probably saying is that Sorcerer needs to have a tree with Force spellpower and critical increase, so that I can continue to rule Epic Elite content with Shiradi Sorcerer.

If so, I totally agree.

Carry on.

[Deadlock]

Deadlock mentioned adding Acolyte of the Skin could help overcome this but I hope they don't go the route of dumping all the general-ish enhancement into one tree since it could have many cool potential abilities that there might not be room for otherwise.

I'm not arguing for Acolyte of the Skin as a generalist enhancement tree. If it's going to be added, then it should be have it's own unique flavour rather than just a bland collection of generic enhancements.

The problem with making all 4 savants into a single prestige tree is that it means every enhancement becomes a 4 savant multi-selector and just becomes incredibly unwieldy. It's a nice idea having an extra class-specific feat to let you choose your savant line, but I can't see an easy way to implement it.

If there were to be new generic trees, I wouldn't see them being one per class - so you might have an Arcanist tree that has generic arcane stuff and is accessible to Wizards, Sorcerers, Artificers, Bards; a Divinity tree accessible to Clerics, Favoured Souls, Paladins (maybe Bards); a Primalist tree accessible to Druids, Rangers (and maybe Bards again), and a Duellist tree accessible to Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, Paladins, Rangers and Rogues (and maybe Bards).

You'd have more luck trying to get 4 generic trees added than 13 new ones i reckon - the danger is that these trees would be fairly bland compared to other trees with specific flavours.

But I'm not convinced that we deal with the perceived problems in a single class by throwing that amount of time and resource into it.

[Zakharov]

I'm not arguing for Acolyte of the Skin as a generalist enhancement tree. If it's going to be added, then it should be have it's own unique flavour rather than just a bland collection of generic enhancements.

The problem with making all 4 savants into a single prestige tree is that it means every enhancement becomes a 4 savant multi-selector and just becomes incredibly unwieldy. It's a nice idea having an extra class-specific feat to let you choose your savant line, but I can't see an easy way to implement it.

If there were to be new generic trees, I wouldn't see them being one per class - so you might have an Arcanist tree that has generic arcane stuff and is accessible to Wizards, Sorcerers, Artificers, Bards; a Divinity tree accessible to Clerics, Favoured Souls, Paladins (maybe Bards); a Primalist tree accessible to Druids, Rangers (and maybe Bards again), and a Duellist tree accessible to Fighters, Barbarians, Monks, Paladins, Rangers and Rogues (and maybe Bards).

You'd have more luck trying to get 4 generic trees added than 13 new ones i reckon - the danger is that these trees would be fairly bland compared to other trees with specific flavours.

But I'm not convinced that we deal with the perceived problems in a single class by throwing that amount of time and resource into it.

Yes sorry I didn't mean that you suggested Acolyte be the generalist tree but if they add just 1 new tree it could potentially end up being the generalist tree by default, better they add 2 new trees to add more options and have more room for general enhancements to breath.

Combining 4 Savants into 1 tree could work pretty easily without redoing each ability.. just change the very first core ability to be the multi-selector "which element do you want to specialize in?" then once chosen the entire tree switches over to one we already have. They could even leave all the trees as is but taking points in any 1 tree blocks you from spending points in any other - that would have the same effect. This maybe too much work to bother with of course, probably better to leave it as is.

I disagree about general class trees.. they would have worked great as a place for all the general stuff that has now been shoe-horned into prestige trees but it's too late to change it now. The best I can hope for is all the general abilities get fleshed out in new trees so we get back some of the options we lost. This is the big problem with having no general trees - there's just not enough room for all the general stuff in 1 or 2 trees.. each class needs at least 3 trees to fit all the prestige specific + general enhancements.

Once every class has 3 unique trees then I think it would be cool to start adding more of those crossover type prestige trees - like Protection/Warpriest is currently. I don't think any classes should be sharing prestige trees just yet, after they finish Warpriest Clr & Fvs will still feel lacking to me.. they will each need another tree to remain unique (Fvs will need 2).

[Vargouille]

While we understand that there is going to be some pain with large scale changes, in terms of build diversity the enhancement pass has been successful, overall.

Before Update 19, most builds broke down class levels along pure 20, or 18/2, or 12/6/2. There were a few more variations on those themes, but they tended to be exceptions rather than the rule. It doesn't take much searching of the forums to see that there is increased variation in builds today. Some of that may settle down to a some more recognizable builds and breakdowns, but we're fairly confident the variety and uniqueness in builds is likely to be greater in the future than the past.

We do recognize that Sorcerers could use some help, and they are the first class planned to get an entirely new enhancement tree. If there are specific Sorcerer abilities from U18 enhancements that you feel are missing and vitally need to be restored to Sorcerers, do feel free to submit bugs saying so (using the link in my signature).

[Krelar]

You don't need to be savant, you can pick any enhancement from any tree.

This is not true of the sorcerer trees. As soon as you put points in one element it completely locks you out of being able to put points in the opposing element. So you can have at most 2 class trees.

[chrisdinus7]

While we understand that there is going to be some pain with large scale changes, in terms of build diversity the enhancement pass has been successful, overall.

Before Update 19, most builds broke down class levels along pure 20, or 18/2, or 12/6/2. There were a few more variations on those themes, but they tended to be exceptions rather than the rule. It doesn't take much searching of the forums to see that there is increased variation in builds today. Some of that may settle down to a some more recognizable builds and breakdowns, but we're fairly confident the variety and uniqueness in builds is likely to be greater in the future than the past.

We do recognize that Sorcerers could use some help, and they are the first class planned to get an entirely new enhancement tree. If there are specific Sorcerer abilities from U18 enhancements that you feel are missing and vitally need to be restored to Sorcerers, do feel free to submit bugs saying so (using the link in my signature).

Bug reported it several times, but...

Wand and Scroll mastery. There is already plenty of reason to be a WF or Bladeforged sorc. No need to nerf the fleshies.

[oradafu]

We do recognize that Sorcerers could use some help, and they are the first class planned to get an entirely new enhancement tree. If there are specific Sorcerer abilities from U18 enhancements that you feel are missing and vitally need to be restored to Sorcerers, do feel free to submit bugs saying so (using the link in my signature).

When you say that Sorcs will be the first class planned to get new enhancement trees, does that mean we can expect more tree for other classes? Or will this be another started system that stops unless a new class appears and only the new class gets "new" trees.

The reason I ask is that we were told something very similar with Epic Destinies. We were told that even though there was only 10 EDs originally, but there would be more EDs in the future. We've received a single ED since then, the Druid one. We are still missing an ED for Clerics and Artificers. It was also hinted that the EDs would fill more than just one prestige class's role, such as the ShadowDancer being mostly for Assassins only, with a dash of Ninja Spy on the side.

So are you sure there really are going to be more trees for classes? Or is this one of those things just to float out there to keep players interested just a bit longer without actually producing more?