Get Rid of Points Spent in Individual Trees

[stricq]

A huge fix for this new enhancement system would be to get rid of the points spent requirements for each individual tree and just be across all trees. This would be a huge improvement.

[Gremmlynn]

I agree for the most part. The only place I would like to see them remain are for the core PRE abilities of the tree. Not the currently designated "core abilities", but something resembling the current PRE enhancements on live.

Also revamp the points spent costs for all other enhancements based on their actual value, not whatever the cost was for the empty position in the tree they where shoved into. Many of the higher tier enhancements are old low level enhancements that just got moved up due to the limited space at the bottom of the new matrix. While some higher level one's moved down simply to make their long prereq chains fit.

[Truga]

This is how it used to work, and this is how it still should work. If I want a PrE, I'll invest in that tree. If I just want a couple abilities from it, I shouldn't have to sink in 40 points to get the top ones... I have a pure rogue. By what logic should I spend 40 points in a tree I don't want to get faster sneaking, for example (if faster sneaking ends up being on top..).

[SirValentine]

/signed

I'd still be disappoined that they've nerfed Cleric to heck and back, but at least then the basic system would be workable. As is, this is a big step backwards for the game as a whole, due to the lack of flexibility.

[Viisari]

This is something that needs to happen. For stuff that's supposed to be for that specific prestige only make clear progression lines (many already have this) that can require points spent in the tree, for others that aren't really tied to that prestige specifically just require total AP spent.

[Tid12]

/signed.

[CarpeNoctu]

/signed

[darthhento]

Yes! Remove the "in tree" from the "Points spent in tree" and give us back the flexibility.

[ddobard1]

the AP´s "economy" is delicate, else there will be characters almost equal in enhancs wise!

[darthhento]

the AP´s "economy" is delicate, else there will be characters almost equal in enhancs wise!

And you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Have you even tried to rebuild your favorite class/race combo on Lammania?

[SamuelTheFree]

This or a small variant was what I was thinking about before bed.
I think removing the "in Tree" option would be the best way to resolve the flexibility.

From a constructive point of view, I also would expect this to be coupled with a revamp of the enhancement costs in some cases.

A slight alternative I had thought of as well was to change it so that it counted the AP points spend in any tree for the same class.
I have not spent too much time with that idea yet but I think it also has potential.

[ddobard1]

And you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Have you even tried to rebuild your favorite class/race combo on Lammania?

nope,

thats my opinion based on the trees I saw and the posts I read on the forums

only my toughts

[Archangel666]

nope,

thats my opinion based on the trees I saw and the posts I read on the forums

only my toughts

Well, just to give you an idea of how it actually works.

Lets take my Ranger. She's Human because I wanted the Healing Amp to make the most of her Cure Serious Wounds spell (Which is the best a Ranger can cast).

Do you know how many Action Points we get? 80.

Do you know how many Action Points it costs to get all three Tiers of Healing Amp? 22.

So that leaves 58 Action Points left to spend on the PrE which are equally as expensive.

[ddobard1]

.....Do you know how many Action Points it costs to get all three Tiers of Healing Amp? 22.

So that leaves 58 Action Points left to spend on the PrE which are equally as expensive.

the 3 tiers are powerful so they should be expensive..... doesnt shock me that a character must spend around 25% of AP to get the 3

if it was cheap all will take the 3 and we will be equal in healing amp

we can always only take 1 or 2 tiers depending on our builds and that is customization!

[blerkington]

the 3 tiers are powerful so they should be expensive..... doesnt shock me that a character must spend around 25% of AP to get the 3

if it was cheap all will take the 3 and we will be equal in healing amp

we can always only take 1 or 2 tiers depending on our builds and that is customization!

Hi,

At the moment it costs 12AP to get the third tier of healing amp for a human.

We already have customisation, what is happening here is that the ability is becoming almost twice as expensive to purchase.

How is that an improvement and why would we want it?

Thanks.

[Archangel666]

the 3 tiers are powerful so they should be expensive..... doesnt shock me that a character must spend around 25% of AP to get the 3

if it was cheap all will take the 3 and we will be equal in healing amp

we can always only take 1 or 2 tiers depending on our builds and that is customization!

I don't want to be rude to you, but you're very, very wrong on how it works.

You're lucky if you can afford a single top Tier and get half way to a second one.

Please try it out before you support something like this. You'll quickly see what we're talking about.

And as for only taking one or two Tiers of Healing Amp.

That doesn't work either because:

A: It's Cure Serious Wounds. It's never going to heal you for much without helping it extensively.

and

B: The Ranger Devotion line has been removed which means that you now have to drop a stat to boost INT so that you can afford the Heal Skill.

On Live with my Ranger a Maximized Cure Serious Wounds heals me for 250-300+.

On Lamm it heals me for 180 ish.

The above was tested with a Heal skill of 9, 30% Human Healing Amp (Which cost me 22 bloody AP!), 30% PDK Gloves and an Epic Mask of Comedy.

How much do you think that would heal my Ranger for with less Healing Amp?

[Nibor]

After spending the evening thinking about this, I strongly believe this is the way to go.
The "core" abilities should have "in-tree" AP spent pre-reqs - that represents the prestige-style investments to getting the prestige boosts (and we all know there's a lot of chaff in those pre-reqs today, so it's fair to continue tomorrow).
The other enhancements should be gated by specific pre-reqs and level - require a specific # of levels in a class, require a specific overall level. The easiest way to gate by "overall level" is to just require a certain number of APs spent total, which is what is done now. It's possible that the AP gate should be higher for the top row or rows, which would be fine, as long as it's overall AP spent, not in-tree.

This allows people to have the flexibility to just pick up specific chains of enhancements without huge investments into the tree, and the core abilities give incentive to invest heavily in single trees. Abilities like getting spellpower per point invested into the tree gives good incentive, for example - although perhaps a bad example since spellpower is one of those things that people were used to getting as a specific pickup.

For example, Kensai tree.
Keen Edge should probably be the Lvl 18 autogrant - require investment in the tree, as before. Limit this ability to those who chose to spend a lot in Kensai.
One Cut should probably be in the tree somewhere, requiring pre-reqs but not necessarily huge investment into the tree. Even a straight swap with Keen Edge would be fine; with "overall AP spent" pre-reqs you couldn't get it early and with a tree of Weapon Spec pre-reqs you'd be required to invest a little before it was unlocked. You could grab it from the tree and but spend your focus on a different tree, making it splashable as long as you have at least 5 Fighter levels.

[Ape_Man]

/signed.

At least on the Racial tree at a bare minimum. It is colossally stupid how much you have to spend on worthless human AP to unlock all the healing amp.

[IronClan]

/signed

this is clearly the way to go, the current "in tree" requirement as far as I can tell pretty much forces me to spend AP's on things I never would have picked before, thus leaving almost all of my builds short of AP for the things they already have on live. Meaning the current implementation breaks nearly every character I have, possibly obviates the race I chose, or makes pointless the class split I planned out for them.

If we don't get them to change this I think we're looking at a Star Wars Galaxies sized disaster. They're going to say that they will "reduce the cost" of in tree spending, but I have builds that don't have 2 AP to spare after PrE's... those builds will be messed up even with only 4 or 5 AP's worth of "junky prerequisites" I don't want. Multiply these "throw away" AP's by 3 trees all of which require me to take unwanted stuff just to open up things I already get, and we're talking about mangling nearly every character in the game.

[BruceTheHoon]

We've discussed the changes in 3 separate groups of players and always came to the same conclusion: AP in tree requirements need to go.

If you want to be more restrictive, use more icon arrows, but then please, use them to connect the enhancements sensibly.

Great example of what not to do with arrows are some racial core enhancement lines (human & drow come to mind), where completely unrelated enhancements are being forced as prerequisites (i.e.: drow SR is prerequisite for charisma... why?).