It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Chai]

You do not read very well do you. In regards to your shrouds, reread my posted period. From dq until the shroud. The rest of your perspective is foreign to me.

Regardless, your expertesque attitude of claiming things as fact because you have been playing for 6 years only further eludes to the thought that an inferiority complex is resisting it's bindings.

First time we beat Von was because of a barbarian the casters were dead. first dq was a ranger. The casters were dead. The first shroud on elite we did was heroed. The first Vod we completed was a 17 minute melee with one hell of a healer.

Your TRUTH is false. Spin yourself a reality that is comfortable to you. I prefer the Cold truth.


Coldest

Accusations of not reading are well rehearsed claims of those who understand they have already lost the debate. Once someone runs out of ammo to go back and forth with they will begin the accusations of reading comprehension failure and such. Its pretty pattern based and predictable on these forums. This train is never late folks. One could set a watch to it.

No sir, my disagreement with you doesnt equate to any lack of reading or lack of understanding of the issue. To claim such is plain absurd.

[karsion]

This thread is still going?


wow....you guys need to play more, spend less time here.

Trust me, you'll enjoy it.

Exactly my thoughts, was amazed that this thread is still alive

[Drekisen]

Green-skinned gnome psionicist? Or the hulk has seen much much better days?

Most definately the prior....although the latter has some uses too....like breaking the computers of the people who have a problem against "endless SP potions".

HULK SMASH!


Everyone knows even Yoda likes to indulge.



and do you really wanna try and take away this guys drink....I didn't think so

[Alavatar]

Exactly my thoughts, was amazed that this thread is still alive

You had me so excited for a moment because I first read your name as "Kargon"! But, then severe disappointment because you are not Kargon.

I miss that guy. And the Magical Pony. And Mystic Theurge.

[Forzah]

Accusations of not reading are well rehearsed claims of those who understand they have already lost the debate. Once someone runs out of ammo to go back and forth with they will begin the accusations of reading comprehension failure and such. Its pretty pattern based and predictable on these forums. This train is never late folks. One could set a watch to it.

No sir, my disagreement with you doesnt equate to any lack of reading or lack of understanding of the issue. To claim such is plain absurd.

Off-topic:
Maybe I'm wrong, but do you have some form of autism by any change? There's something in the way you post and interpret things that has some really autistic feel to it, but I can't put my finger on it completely.

[ninjadwarf_uk]

There are only really two significant questions here.

1 are turbine making more money from selling these potions than they are losing from those annoyed enough by their sale that they stop spending / playing.

2 are more people having fun from the potions being available and used than are not having fun because of the use of the potions.


Now since the potions are still available on the store and based on previous Dev posts, I'm pretty sure they have solid metrics on what goes on in game I would suggest the first question is answered by the first option.

Based on this thread is day that the second question is also answered by the first option, though that's a bigger assumption.

Draw your own conclusions

[Qhualor]

After reading all this, I still have to say...so what? As long as you are not required to eat store sp pots like tic tacs, then who cares if some small portion of the population would rather spend money chugging their way to victory instead of learning the quests better or farming better gear. I don't care what other people do as long as I am not required to do it also.

Your response only reinforces my point. Noone can give a good reason why they must buy from the store other than

1) its money for Turbine

2) its my money/TP i can do with it as i please.

3) it doesnt affect me, why should i care what others do?

Noone wants to admit they feel like they need store items to beat a quest. It suggests they arent very good and need outside help. I would rather group with people who are willing to learn and play the best that they can, even if it means failing over and over, than to group with people who need to power their way through content because in game resources isnt enough for them and they dont have the "time" for failure. Nobody is going to put up a sign that they p2w, so you wont know until you are already in a quest with them.

[Alavatar]

Your response only reinforces my point. Noone can give a good reason why they must buy from the store other than

1) its money for Turbine

2) its my money/TP i can do with it as i please.

3) it doesnt affect me, why should i care what others do?

Noone wants to admit they feel like they need store items to beat a quest. It suggests they arent very good and need outside help. I would rather group with people who are willing to learn and play the best that they can, even if it means failing over and over, than to group with people who need to power their way through content because in game resources isnt enough for them and they dont have the "time" for failure. Nobody is going to put up a sign that they p2w, so you wont know until you are already in a quest with them.

I recommend against over-generalizations.

If I need to I will use store-bought items (res cakes, SP potions, etc.) to complete a quest. It is infrequent, but it is there. If someone asks I won't hide the fact that I used store-bought items.

But, most people don't care and don't ask. And it isn't like it's a requirement to broadcast that you are using the store-bought items. Do you ask every time you see someone's SP bar move in the positive?

One more thing I would like to add is that SP potions are not unique to the DDO store. They have been around since Mod 3 (I think that was the Desert update?), so using them does not necessarily mean they are from the DDO store.

[jsm123]

So this game has become too easy? Because people that have money spend a lot of it on buying SP pots, rez cakes, etc?

I'm sorry, but that's a little arrogant. Those of us who actually work hard for the little money we have and are not able to "no-life" the game do not feel the same way.

Why would you waste so much money on things that make the game less of a challenge? Do you really need 20000 Turbine Points? Come on.

Either way, if the pots were to change like that, no skin off my bones. I rarely ever use pots. I will drink a pot, on average, once a month.

EDIT: I would like to add that I really don't care how someone plays as long as they are doing their best, having fun, and not being a jerk. So what if you join a fail PUG that only made it half-way because of you? In today's society, practically everyone has the notion that we must do things faster and sooner. IMHO this is, with lack of a better word, stupid and passively greedy.

[Ape_Man]

43 pages of people defending their easy-buttons. Carry on.

[MrkGrismer]

Noone wants to admit they feel like they need store items to beat a quest. It suggests they arent very good and need outside help. I would rather group with people who are willing to learn and play the best that they can, even if it means failing over and over, than to group with people who need to power their way through content because in game resources isnt enough for them and they dont have the "time" for failure. Nobody is going to put up a sign that they p2w, so you wont know until you are already in a quest with them.

Perhaps nobody wants to admit that because nobody actually feels that?

You seem to conveniently be forgetting what most are saying here: "If you don't like how somebody else plays, don't play with them."

So when is somebody going to ask that players be limited to 2 hours of play per day? Afterall, it isn't fair to those players that can't dedicate their lives to playing ddo for other players to be able to put in more than 2 hours of play per day. (note, I am being sarcastic, I am not advocating this)

[smatt]

SP potions are fuel for the tools. The tools are the spells. A better analogy over time would be changing up from the F9F Cougar to the F22 Raptor. Casters gained new tools. They didn't ignore them to continue alternating between burning hands and acid spray. SP potions would be the equivalent of reloading armament and refueling without stopping, and doing so repeatedly. The F22 can do a lot more with that ability than the F22 that cannot, making that ability very powerful. The Raptor with that ability would still be a big upgrade over the the Cougar and that ability would be more effective on the Raptor.

Also, a hammer in the hands of someone learning to use it is not as effective as a the hammer in the hands of the person who knows how to use it. Even tho I would consider the hammer a poor analogy changes to the person swinging it still makes it more effective even if it is the same hammer, similar to the changes going from a caster years ago to a caster now.



You need to feel over powered to have fun?



You are ultimate responsible for your own fun. Turbine is ultimately responsible for the enjoyment of as many players as possible. That can mean someone has to suck it up sometimes. Could be me, or you, or they might come up with something else that makes us both happy, who knows? But sometimes changes make the list of things to change and it's not always what we want. I've been hit several times over the years that way and I rebounded.



So why should a player be forced to roll a caster to do that then? If I follow the logic behind being able to play how I want when I want and the only thing I need to concern myself with is whether I have fun why would you expect me to be forced to play my caster to do it?

The reason SP totals exist in the first place is still because players are not supposed to have the options of simply having 200,000 spell points to throw down the throat of any mob he or she wishes. If that were the case he or she would already have those spell points, or spell points wouldn't exist in the first place, or spells would not be as effective as they are.

I agree potions are not limitless, but the limits themselves are slack enough to make the SP available to blow as more than enough and on a whim. I think that is counter-productive to the actual game design, mechanics in place, and actual intent. Those are also reasons to change it.


The reasons players say we shouldn't change it have amounted to:

1) you can't tell me how to play
2) i can blow threw SP potions if I want to
3) we need the money spent in the store (which, based on changes to make casting cheaper also indicator this is not a design goal)
4) what's it to you if we want to play that way
5) i'm responsible for my own fun
6) Matt should stop forcing his playstyle on others
7) because not many ppl are affected we should ignore it
8) players who do that should pay for improvements to my game
9) there's also healing available so if my thing gets change your thing should be changed take that you dirty melee
10) other player agree with me so i must be right
11) this thread is only awesome because i am here
12) etc etc etc


The change makes sense because:

1) it helps with balance concerns among players
2) it helps development balance content for players
3) it establishes a better expectation among the community on what to expect
4) it help ensure more players feel like they were able to contribute in place of watch one person who decided to join a group to show off how he can solo
5) it prevents players from spending plat or TP unnecessarily as they learn the game
6) it promotes learning conservation and tactics over brute forcing
7) it reinforces the existing game mechanics instead of bypassing them
8) spells have become cheaper and more effective over time
9) epics have cheap SP options and PrE's have cheap SLA's and echoes now exists
10) the devs have been moving in the direction of not keeping meta's going full tilt with the expectation players would use efficient options and meta's for a more expensive, inefficient burst; something players seem to resist but restricting SP potions follows that same direction
11) shrines are more plentiful and already provide an in game control mechanism that's easy for them to manage expected SP usage when they design quests making SP potions less necessary for emergency use

Following the thread the reasons for the change look more reasonable than the reasons against it.

*Sigh.... What a perverted view...

[Alavatar]

43 pages of people defending their easy-buttons. Carry on.

43 pages of trolls continuing to troll. Carry on.

(Disclaimer: Both sides are guilty.)

[Chai]

Exactly....if you don't like the way someone else plays that's what your squelch list is for.......oh that's right....your types are already full....oh well.....too bad...maybe spend more time on doing the proper work first...like making a suggestion instead to expand the amount of people you can squelch so you don't have to be bothered with mnemonic-holics.

Better luck next time.

This is the strawman argument right here. Trying to act like the issue is personal based on how one player thinks another player should play, is false. Wanting to preserve game balance has absolutely nothing to do with being bothered about how others play. It has to do with realizing that an unlimited supply of purchasable mana potions disrupts game balance, and this can go one of two ways.

1. Game balanced on not needing pots with limited supply of pots.
2. Game balanced on needing pots to win. (this is not an issue of absolute, but an issue of degree)

Since the most players proved that they will just gravitate to the easiest difficulty which wont require mana potions, Turbine went in and took care of that issue in the most recent endgame raid by allowing the boss to get rid of unused mana for you, in the most punitive fashion possible. Not going to use your mana enough to need to milk their cash cow? They are more than willing to unburden you of all that excess SP, then sell you more of it.

But Ill play your straw man game. If youre not so bothered by how others play, why not support pure melee having a heal spell they can use in an unlimited fashion (or say..a heal potion that hits for 150 before amp is calced sold in the store in stacks for the same price as mana pots)? Think this is absurd? This is far less powerful than casters having an unlimited supply of mana. Any one of my casters can still clear quests faster than any melee even if they had unpenalized limitless healing. This is my dog in this fight no one has an answer for. Every time I ask this question, people gloss right over it and post some lame accusation of reading comprehension failure or something. They fully well understand that theres nothing they can truthfully say about this scenario that will not support my stance on the issue regarding game balance. Theres a reason why they gloss over it. They were in the threads regarding giving melee some easier to get self healing waving their game balance flag around as justification for not allowing more sources of easy to get self healing. Yet they are more than willing to support endless mana supply. The forums are starting to smell like a waffle house again. When I point these direct contradictions out is usually when the hilarity ensues.

[smatt]

SP potions are fuel for the tools. The tools are the spells. A better analogy over time would be changing up from the F9F Cougar to the F22 Raptor. Casters gained new tools. They didn't ignore them to continue alternating between burning hands and acid spray. SP potions would be the equivalent of reloading armament and refueling without stopping, and doing so repeatedly. The F22 can do a lot more with that ability than the F22 that cannot, making that ability very powerful. The Raptor with that ability would still be a big upgrade over the the Cougar and that ability would be more effective on the Raptor.

You are ultimate responsible for your own fun. Turbine is ultimately responsible for the enjoyment of as many players as possible. That can mean someone has to suck it up sometimes. Could be me, or you, or they might come up with something else that makes us both happy, who knows? But sometimes changes make the list of things to change and it's not always what we want. I've been hit several times over the years that way and I rebounded.

Changes in game mechanics happen... But for them to be good changes they have to actually provide a better game for MOST of the people out there. They have to appeal to the majority of customers and possible customers.

The reasons players say we shouldn't change it have amounted to:

1) you can't tell me how to play
2) i can blow threw SP potions if I want to
3) we need the money spent in the store (which, based on changes to make casting cheaper also indicator this is not a design goal)
4) what's it to you if we want to play that way
5) i'm responsible for my own fun
6) Matt should stop forcing his playstyle on others
7) because not many ppl are affected we should ignore it
8) players who do that should pay for improvements to my game
9) there's also healing available so if my thing gets change your thing should be changed take that you dirty melee
10) other player agree with me so i must be right
11) this thread is only awesome because i am here
12) etc etc etc

The change makes sense because:

1) it helps with balance concerns among players

It does? How?

2) it helps development balance content for players

When they first started sellign SP pots int he store I ws concerned that Turbine would start designing content around them. They haven't done that, in fact just the opposite has happened. The quests that have come out since Unlimited/FTP/Store in fact have FAR more shrines on average than the previosu quests. I have seen 0 evidence that the Devs are designing and or balancing content around SP pot usage, let alone any other consumable.

3) it establishes a better expectation among the community on what to expect

What? How does it do that? Again, wheo the hell cares what another player does or doesn't do, spends or doesn't spend? Perhaps players like you and Matt feel you uber game skills are lessened by all the poor nuuuuuuubs.... (Hint: I doubt even 1/10th of 1% of the palyers out there care hwo good you or anybody else is.

4) it help ensure more players feel like they were able to contribute in place of watch one person who decided to join a group to show off how he can solo

This type of behavior will happen no matter what is done.

5) it prevents players from spending plat or TP unnecessarily as they learn the game

LOL, really? Items ae in the game for that very reason.....

6) it promotes learning conservation and tactics over brute forcing

Again, if people want to learn they will, most people who play long enough DO learn....

7) it reinforces the existing game mechanics instead of bypassing them

People will always find a wway to bypass game mechanics IF they so desire.

8) spells have become cheaper and more effective over time

Not really... But so have melee options in equal fashion.. Melees are FAR more powerful than they have been in a long time.

9) epics have cheap SP options and PrE's have cheap SLA's and echoes now exists

Sure for the palyers that get that far into the game. I barely ever use a SP pots in Epic content... However I do use them in lowbie land...

10) the devs have been moving in the direction of not keeping meta's going full tilt with the expectation players would use efficient options and meta's for a more expensive, inefficient burst; something players seem to resist but restricting SP potions follows that same direction

No it would limit the options of newer, more casual players. That's a bad idea for a game that is hanging on by a thread and depnedant on the 6 months at most player base. You really sem to have a poor grasp on the business side of all this.

11) shrines are more plentiful and already provide an in game control mechanism that's easy for them to manage expected SP usage when they design quests making SP potions less necessary for emergency use

There are plenty of shrines for the experienced player and as I said before as newer players learn to play, their SP pot usuage tends to go down as far as I can tell. Surely there will always be the people that drink like there's no tomorrow though.

Following the thread the reasons for the change look more reasonable than the reasons against it.

That's because the reason you listed to leave things as is, is pure propaganda... Maybe we should call yo the Fox news fo the DDO forums

[smatt]

Its not only the newer players. Its the players who value time as the new standard for them getting things done. I know quite a few older players and even a few founders who are loaded up on mana potions and use them all the time.

So what? I dont believe anyone who says this understands the impact this has on the game. Or maybe they do understand and arent willing to admit it. The reason I say this is because I see alot of names in here trying to disagree with me who have a history of harping about bad PUGs and such. Easy buttons breed less quality play and higher attrition loss of skilled players. Thats a bad combination, because alot of those higher end guilds who used to field 20 players a night now only field 7 or 8 and they are filling the other 4 spots in their raid from the very PUG pool that has gotten alot worse over time, in major part due to the easy buttons they temselves have supported over the years.

Wow, for someone that's been around so long you seem 100% clueless to the FACT that the onyl thing keeping this game in a development cycle are the 1-6 month new players.... The ones who will play for 6 months at most and then run along to the next game.... The VET side of the game only provides enough revenue to keep the servers open, not to keep it in development. The existance of SP pots allows new players the option to yes, buy their way through content and classes that have a very steep learning curve. This game was a failure in it's early days... If nto for FTP it would've died and went to wherever dead games go.

[gradeyshane]

Wow, for someone that's been around so long you seem 100% clueless to the FACT that the onyl thing keeping this game in a development cycle are the 1-6 new players.. The ones who will play for 6 months at most and then run along to the next game.... The VET side of the game only provides enough revenue to keep the servers open, not to keep it in development.

This makes me LOL.

Thats all.

[GermanicusMaximus]

So what? I dont believe anyone who says this understands the impact this has on the game. Or maybe they do understand and arent willing to admit it. The reason I say this is because I see alot of names in here trying to disagree with me who have a history of harping about bad PUGs and such. Easy buttons breed less quality play and higher attrition loss of skilled players.

Chai, if you really believed this you would stop being an apologist for overpowered melee toons. Melee toons represent the absolute lowest skill level in this game, and overpowered melee toons are the game's biggest easy button.

This game used to have an acknowledged player skill hierarchy, where people started out as melee players and progressed to the higher skill levels required to play casters. The changes that came with MotU killed that player progression, and left this game dead in the water. It was apparent this would happen, at least to any intelligent person who gave the issue any serious consideration.

We are now 5 months into the Melee Easy Button phase of DDO, and the game has lost far too many skilled players, and many who are left are bored silly. Why? Because even though we now have 5 epic levels and Epic Destinies, we in reality have less player progression than we did in May. What we do have is a lot more senseless, joyless XP grind.

Time is getting late. The revenue attrition is starting to bite. DDO is cutting things like German and French language support because the remaining number of players can no longer support the cost of running the game as is, and DDO has no choice but to start tossing things (and the players who want/need them) overboard.

Its time to go back to the formula that made this game work from the launch of micro transactions up until the launch of MotU. That was the golden age of DDO. The MotU phase of DDO is a nightmare. The best we can say about it is that it won't last much longer, one way or the other.

[MrkGrismer]

Since the most players proved that they will just gravitate to the easiest difficulty which wont require mana potions, Turbine went in and took care of that issue in the most recent endgame raid by allowing the boss to get rid of unused mana for you, in the most punitive fashion possible. Not going to use your mana enough to need to milk their cash cow? They are more than willing to unburden you of all that excess SP, then sell you more of it.

Speaking of Strawmen...

I was wrong about which dev said it but:

We're working really hard on this raid right now. There will be some changes, some of them you might not even hate.

But spell point damage stays. Its function is punitive: if you get zapped for spell point damage (and you have a mana bar), then you were clearly in the wrong place at the wrong time. Further, this damage is much, much higher on elite and hard. It's statted as "something skilled players will never get hit with". There's a pattern for people to learn and follow. This is raid content and it will require people to exhibit a certain level of skill to be successful.

Healers, on the other hand, will have the easiest time avoiding this damage altogether. We left plenty of rocks and other random phallic objects for you guys to hide behind. I expect casters and ranged dpsers to have a harder time with this.

Paladins and melee fvs will still be viable because there will be plenty of things for them to tank and beat down, besides Lolth, and the raid will require multiple tanks. It's just one of these tanks should probably not have a mana bar if he or she likes blue pixels on their screen.

Actually, I would consider the dedicated person "tanking" Lolth's beams for the raid to be the off-tank. I would actually expect monks and rogues (or rogue splashes) to be the best tanks for it, because of evasion and all the elemental damage. There are also a bunch of other tricks to mitigate her gorgeous eyes, but the important part is, that if the other 11 people in the raid are on top of their game, they can all have blue bars and nobody will get hit by spell point drain even once.

The potions from the store argument is silly and invalid. We sell HP potions in the store too, should our raid bosses stop hitting you in the HP? I mean, what's up with that? Next thing you know, they might even kill you.

Your post indicates you have not played the raid. This is a feedback thread.

For the last time, spell point damage in this raid is not meant to suck TP right out of your account. It's punitive mechanic (yes, we know) specifically made to punish mistakes. A healer, caster, divine caster, ranged dps, melee dps, etc etc = a skilled player will not get hit by this. We don't expect you to stand there next to the tank and just take it in the face over and over again. If you're doing this, and then chug store point potions, you're doing this wrong. This is a tool we use, in this particular instance, to let you know that you're standing in the wrong place and you should probably move. I will not stoop to explain the basics of playing an action MMO here. I presume that a player who has leveled a 20 character has minimal situational awareness to "not stand in the fire" during boss fights. And in this case, the fire is burning your spell points. When you stand in the spell point fire, you make a designer do a double facepalm and then stab a kitten with a spork. Please think of the sporks*.

In closing, the signal to noise ratio so far has been abysmal, I see very little actionable feedback. To summarize the thread:

1. I/We/Everybody/Some Players hate escort quests
2. Spell point damage really?
3. I/We/Everybody/Some Players hate mazes
4. There was one person who wondered about something being WAI, and it was.
5. Too annoying/Not enough challenge

We now return you to the regular scheduled broadcasting.

* No actual kittens/sporks are being stabbed/harmed here at Turbine, do not try this at home.

Maybe in the next raid we can fight a giant straw man.

[Vint]

So what? I dont believe anyone who says this understands the impact this has on the game. Or maybe they do understand and arent willing to admit it. The reason I say this is because I see alot of names in here trying to disagree with me who have a history of harping about bad PUGs and such. Easy buttons breed less quality play and higher attrition loss of skilled players. Thats a bad combination, because alot of those higher end guilds who used to field 20 players a night now only field 7 or 8 and they are filling the other 4 spots in their raid from the very PUG pool that has gotten alot worse over time, in major part due to the easy buttons they temselves have supported over the years.

Aren’t you one of the guys that take the first 5 or 11 to hit the LFM? When one of these people join your group that is spamming firewalls on orthons do you tell them no, and explain why? Do you explain the importance of using trip as damage mitigation?

If you are not giving the feedback or advice, you are just an enabler to these people. They come in and get backpack rides and learn nothing.

There is no difference in this and you wanting to limit sp pots. You and the pots are both enablers. Once Maddmatt and everyone else is on board to quit being an enabler in game and make all puggers (not just chuggers) accountable, then I will listen.