It is time to put a timer on mana pot usage

[Ape_Man]

P.S. biscuits burn.

Wash it down with some SP pots, they let you power through the pain.

[voodoogroves]

P.S. biscuits burn.

A cat can have kittens in an oven, but that doesn't make them biscuits.



Am I the only one that thinks this conversation is circular and is incapable of completing?

[Gkar]

A cat can have kittens in an oven, but that doesn't make them biscuits.

So are you saying that ******* aren't edible?

Edit: **** filter not letting me use the p name for little cats

[Ape_Man]

Am I the only one that thinks this conversation is circular and is incapable of completing?

Completely circular. Both sides are convinced they are right and neither will concede. it's like congress.

[Qhualor]

Perhaps nobody wants to admit that because nobody actually feels that?

You seem to conveniently be forgetting what most are saying here: "If you don't like how somebody else plays, don't play with them."

So when is somebody going to ask that players be limited to 2 hours of play per day? Afterall, it isn't fair to those players that can't dedicate their lives to playing ddo for other players to be able to put in more than 2 hours of play per day. (note, I am being sarcastic, I am not advocating this)

I would if it actually said it in the lfm that i request to join. Noone is going to join a group and say, "hey guys. Before we begin, i just want to say i have a stack of sp pots from the DDO store and some res cakes from the store." Its really not that easy and in a lot of cases, you wont know until and if the group goes south if someone is willing to use store products for their completion.

[MrkGrismer]

I would if it actually said it in the lfm that i request to join. Noone is going to join a group and say, "hey guys. Before we begin, i just want to say i have a stack of sp pots from the DDO store and some res cakes from the store." Its really not that easy and in a lot of cases, you wont know until and if the group goes south if someone is willing to use store products for their completion.

You can always post an LFM that says "Do not join if you are gong to you SP pots or res cakes. Also, F2P content only, since buying anything from the ddostore is P2W."

[Sonos]

I would if it actually said it in the lfm that i request to join. Noone is going to join a group and say, "hey guys. Before we begin, i just want to say i have a stack of sp pots from the DDO store and some res cakes from the store." Its really not that easy and in a lot of cases, you wont know until and if the group goes south if someone is willing to use store products for their completion.

And then! Boom! Squelch. Problem solved, and now we move on.

[Sonos]

Stating that none of us
A) work for Turbine
B) are part of their accounting region to actually see numbers.

result:

FACT god states everyone is speculating and knows very little while trying to sound hyper knowledgeable while standing on a strawman set on fire.

P.S. biscuits burn.

Because it is so outside the realm of possibilities that one of the best selling items in the DDO store besides some Korthos grog is funding new content? I don't think that constitutes as knowing very little.

Oh sure it's possible that DDO subsists off of packs and the expansion but I don't feel it's totally justified to condescend people that have a pretty good idea that SP pots are a lucrative source of income.

[Chai]

Given how much DDO is struggling from a revenue standpoint right now, I'd say that in reality only (1) matters. Anyone who seriously believes that DDO is going to agree to lose revenue by putting any significant impediments on mana pot usage is just kidding himself. The fact that this thread can endure for so long in the face of cold reality is a testament to the extent that some forum posters consider reality to be completely optional.

The economic factor is something I have been pointing out the entire time, since 2009 when more and more P2W was injected into the system periodically.

Concerning your comment about some posters considering reality to be completely optional: Its the devs themselves who pull out the "game balance" card in order justify specific decisions made in order to preserve this "balance" - and then completely violate their own designed reality they created by selling balance circumvention mechanisms in the store. The only reason reality is optional as you put it, is because there a choice to either:

-Deal with the reality that there are specific limitations and barriers designed into the game to preserve balance.
-or-
-Pay into the system in order to circumvent that balance, making the reality of said limitations optional.

Without P2W taking over the game, reality would not be optional in the first place.

[Chai]

The second sentence here is not a fact.

Going back to CiTW. As uber of a player as you consistently try to and feel the need to remind people of, you should know to stand under the rock during the SP draining moments. This argument should be settled and dead that because of one raid that has this mechanic, it must follow that this will become the norm? No.

The same people trying to deny that people guzzling mana potions has become the norm are also trying to parrot that they are a huge source of income which helps Turbine fund their game. This is a direct contradiction. Either people are buying them en masse or they arent. Which is it?

[Chai]

You can always post an LFM that says "Do not join if you are gong to you SP pots or res cakes. Also, F2P content only, since buying anything from the ddostore is P2W."

How many times does it need to be posted that not supporting P2W has nothing to do with caring about how others play? People will continue to pass this old cob web loaded straw man off each time P2W is discussed. Game balance is the topic here, not how others play.

[Chai]

Broad brush.... Meet Grand Canyon sized wall....



Where are you Chai.. I want to join all your groups just so I can "Chug to win" , in fact I'm going to chug even with a full blue bar.. Just because

If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge the blades!!!

[Aashrym]

1) players can be concerned the game is about to end, doesnt make it so strawman. i never stated the game is about to end. i believe i stated the impact was small
2) We have always had mana pots, its ok for challenging content to push us to use it sometimes. we haven't always had mana pots and they do the opposite of challenging us by making it easier to overcome said challenge
3) My expectations are no different on the use of them now then they where in year one if yours are you have issues. if our expectation are different that puts us on equal footing and mine don't have issues just because they are different from yours. that's just like saying your expectations are different from mine so yours are the ones with issues.
4) Your choice to stick with a group with someone like that, one can argue that same event occurs every time a TR with GS item joins a group of newbs while lvling, ive seen that drive off far more people then mana pots first hand over the years one can argue that but it's irrelevant to do so since the TR would still be more hands down effective blowing through SP pots than one who didn't because being a TR hasn't changed the fact that SP potions can be extremely powerful. red herring
5) one of the most meaningless things to say, spending TP is always a need in DDO, the day it stops being that is the day DDO dies once and for all, deal with it! players quit if playing isn't fun and don't have fun if they are required to spend a lot of money just to play. thinking they need to spend more than the cost of a subscription just to play a caster is not good for them. telling me to "deal with it!" is what I am doing. I'm dealing with the discussion by discussing. If you don't like it don't participate.
6) Funny brute force is apparently the right way to play the game according to the masses of warriors on the forums telling clerics to shut up and heal, We always brute force unless we are exploiting poor AI that is how MMOs work not always and still a red herring on AI issues. AI can have issues but that is irrelevant to the difference achieved with SP potions
7) As I have said mana pots have always been here, having access to them on the store simply takes the advantage out of the hands of farmers and uber rich vets you said it but you were incorrect then too. The mechanic to which i am referring is the finite spell points on a given character and limiting sp potions does reinforce that mechanic regardless of how long you might think sp potions have been around
8) And mana pots more abundant, because spell casters need to cast spells to have fun, this is Diablo style DDO, deal with it I am dealing with it. I'm discussing it. If you don't like that you don't need to participate, but don't think telling me to "deal with it" would actually change my opinion. Don't tell my how to post from my account.
9) Has no bearing on a thing as not all people use PRE and ED are purely for the 20+ game. Argue all you want but even those choosing to be gimp have the right to pay for the power they need to enjoy the game Of course it has bearing. 300 extra SP is 15 energy bursts instead of 20 acid blasts and that same 300 extra SP became that much more potent suddenly. I disagree that players have the right to simply pay for more power.
10) no the main reason was people argued META had become must haves, a must have feat is either OP or something that should become a standard built in feature, they wanted to make using META a choice not a must that is all If you say so. I'd ask for a dev quote but the choice to always run with meta's on and continue spamming because of the ability to add SP on a whim is can still get carried away regardless
11) SP has for a long time been virtually unlimited for those not bound by the xp per minute thought such as you. Know why? 2 clerics with regen turns plus DV equal they and no other caster around them will ever be empty. Play PD and you see such slow but unstoppable tactics all the time, its no more or less a way to play then a mana pot chugger but equals the same result it does and that's why I stated earlier that the overall impress is SP are too available these days.

Calling my post tripe doesn't make it untrue or make you correct. It's just an insult.

[MrkGrismer]

How many times does it need to be posted that not supporting P2W has nothing to do with caring about how others play? People will continue to pass this old cob web loaded straw man off each time P2W is discussed. Game balance is the topic here, not how others play.

You keep using that phrase, but yet the Devs have contradicted you. They do not balance content with ddostore items in mind.

Let me repeat:

The potions from the store argument is silly and invalid. We sell HP potions in the store too, should our raid bosses stop hitting you in the HP? I mean, what's up with that? Next thing you know, they might even kill you.

[Sonos]

Deleted

[Sonos]

The same people trying to deny that people guzzling mana potions has become the norm are also trying to parrot that they are a huge source of income which helps Turbine fund their game. This is a direct contradiction. Either people are buying them en masse or they arent. Which is it?

The same people? I'm not sure you are understanding nuance. It is certain that people are buying pots, one needs only to click on bestsellers to see that. But to the extent that you keep espousing no. You keep comparing pots to smokes and assume that everyone that is buying pots is spending $100's of dollars each a month.

I'm not sure why I even respond to someone that claims they have never drank a pot on their arcane ever but here goes:

There are a few, myself included that have in the past guzzled a lion's share of pots, some bought some acquired. As I've learned the game and tactics more, I am using far far less pots, a bauble cast is mostly all that is needed. The beauty is, I was able to learn at my own pace without some "duddley-do-rights" dictating how my game should be played. It also helps that I have acquired other means of SP generation and running with groups that are not dependent on each other for very much.

Running in these groups, I don't feel like I have to carry them, ie I don't have to solo the quest for them, we have equal share in the completion of the quest. This comes with time and know-how, some are faster at this than others but if you play the game long enough, it is evolutionary.

Having said that, if I enter a raid or epic quest where I don't find out until it's a bit late that I will have to do the heavy lifting, I should be able to use my consumables as I see fit. I could recall and end up on everyone's squelch list or I can just finish the quest and be on my merry way.

My gameplay has never affected your gameplay, so please stop trying to affect mine.

[SiliconScout]

I think that there are a small number who guzzle them (I know of one who did it until his CC maxed out) and a medium number have bought them occasionally (my wife for example, averages about stack or so a year). Some, perhaps many never buy them (me!).

Assuming majors (most AI have seen that bought them bought majors) that is about 15 cents a potion.

now some won't be bought int he stack of 100 so the average is likely to be slightly higher, probably coming in around 6 potions = $1.00 range.

EVERY dollar they spend is one less than the rest of us need to spend.

Many say that the content is being balanced with this becoming a requirement and THAT is why it's a problem.

Pray tell show me this? I have solo'd nearly every quest, and all the new content just fine on my wizard without needing potions, and that includes at level Coal Chamber. Throw me in a group and it's usually easier (though sometimes not so much). The point being I haven't seen content, even new content requiring me to use pots.

If anything, especially with echo's of power, the requirement is less.

So if the argument is that it is breaking the game I have to say that no.. no it really isn't.

Now having said that I think that there is a separate argument that it's pay to win. And while I see that as being somewhat valid, in my experience and the experience of the many players I have asked it's more of a pay to not wipe rather than pay to win. It doesn't help that Torc actually pull or give you a guaranteed seal of the antique great axe. The raid timer reset is far more of a "pay to win" mechanic.

You can argue it's a crutch allowing mediocre players to compete with better players and stay in the game. I have to say so?? If he's spending $1.00 a quest to keep up to me and I don't need to spend any then why do I care, more power to ya buddy!

The only argument that I can honestly accept is that it COULD lead to balancing quests so as to require mana pots. Yes this is a danger, and no I don't expect DDO to head down that road though I am more wary than I was in the past given the amount of advertising they are starting to sneak into the game.


TL;DR
This thread is much ado about nothing, timers won't prevent the dangers that concern everyone only the cessation of selling store pots would do so. At this point though everything is "fine".

[Aashrym]

1. Would you remove res cakes and want to nerf monks as well?

3. I promise you, people will not learn their Shroud puzzle or become more competent in my group because of this. If anything they will still blow their mana and not be able to contribute to the party.

4. People dont want to contribute. Who has the ring and voice? As everyone remains quiet and not wanting to learn. They just got off of work, stressful day, and could care less about learning any **** thing.

5. Dont spend tp? This game will be funded by rainbows and unicorns. If this is the case, tell Turbine to quit selling the starter sh** weapons for 300 tp. Now that is a rip off to new people.

6. Look in my bio. How often do you see someone trip, bluff or use diplo? Very few do. People will still not use tactics because of this.

8. They have become cheaper, but you dont remember a huge nerf (or three) to blue bars a while back? If they are that cheap then people must not need pots then. right?

1) I would actually remove rez cakes or restrict their use but that's not actually relevant to SP potions being extremely powerful. Monks I would have to give more thought to because while I do play a monk I mostly play bards and casters. Which aspect of the monk are you referring to?

3) They might not, but they'll learn to use doorways, terrain, and tactics more often. I don't expect them to suddenly become awesomely great players, just promote a bit more learning and less just drink a pot times

4) As much as a player might think it's all about him or her it's not in the long run. It's about the game and all of the players in it.

5) Strawman. I didn't say don't spend TP. I said don't spend unnecessary TP. Because anyone who thinks they need to spend $x extra just to play over other classes who don't can become frustrated and not enjoy the game. There is a difference between spending and wasting.

6) Right now they don't need to. They can just drink a pot. They might have more incentive if they couldn't.

8) That is right. They are cheaper and players don't need pots. Some players think they need pots and that is not true. The spells became cheaper in U9 and the the SLA's are very cheap. The ability to simply drink a pot means cheaper spells don't really matter and person can just continue to use meta's. With the spell power changes most spells were actually improved outside of meta's. To which nerfs are you referring?

[Elaril]

I'm not sure why I even respond to someone that claims they have never drank a pot on their arcane ever but here goes:

The cool thing is that, if you put a poster on forum ignore, you don't have to read their posts. As an added bonus, those of us who ignored them long ago, do not have to read the inane drivel that they constantly spew. I have ignored a grand total of two posters on the forums during my time here. One, I un-ignored, because he is humorously full of himself and constantly wrong, which is too funny to ignore, and the other is still ignored.

[Coldest]

Your false statement:

Melee never ruled.

My response particularly in bold:

To people new to this game, the above post and is not truth.

You are not a good representation of people who have played this game for 6 years.

From launch through Von 1, melees, with the right weapons(vorpal scimitars or kukris) made casters unnescessary, from running Tempest spine to farming the Giant caves.

From DQ up until the shroud, the best melee, with the right weapons(WoP Rapiers) were better than the best arcane in the hardest contents and most.

Pardon the interuption Gunga and Chai. Also, you are pages ahead of me( I'm on pg.30), but "Melee never ruled." is just spin from a person who has an agenda.


Coldest

Your counter that is an outliar:

I always thought it was hilarious when people would complain about "not enough DPS" in the beginning of a caster majority shroud back then, and then babble on about how it was one of the smoothest runs they ever been on afterward.

Hence:

You do not read very well do you. In regards to your shrouds, reread my posted period. From dq until the shroud.

And then:

Accusations of not reading are well rehearsed claims of those who understand they have already lost the debate. Once someone runs out of ammo to go back and forth with they will begin the accusations of reading comprehension failure and such. Its pretty pattern based and predictable on these forums. This train is never late folks. One could set a watch to it.

No sir, my disagreement with you doesnt equate to any lack of reading or lack of understanding of the issue. To claim such is plain absurd.

You claim melee never ruled. I called you out as being false and a very poor representation of someone who has played this game for 6 years. What exaclty is your disagreement with me?

Do you think to bully people into having your history become theirs? Your history is spun. Nobody likes spin but the spinner.


Coldest