Guild Renown Changes

[OpallNotten]

I am working on a post (not this one) to describe how this will effect me and my guys.

Guild <o>
6 Active
Level 72


What this does is allows all those guilds that managed to hit high levels very quickly after Guild Renown was introduced to keep getting higher levels even though they could have been dominating this entire time if they worked at it.

I am level 72.
It took me a little over a year and a half to get here. I worked at it.

Decay is not the problem here!
Decay is what keeps those large guilds in check.

This does effect small Guilds.

Let us not forget the LEADERBOARD on the MyDDO page.

This has always been the driving factor for <o>. It is a competition.
But now the large Guilds will have that handed to them.
I hope this is only a test. If this actually goes live.......It will be a sad day for people that seen Guilds the way they were meant to be seen.
Not as a buffing bonus
As a COMPETITION!

[Dekh]

Greetings! We are putting forth modifications currently trying out some temporary adjustments to the Guild Renown system and monitoring the outcome and feedback this week. The intent is to address concerns from guilds and guild leaders regarding the impact of optimizing guild size in order to gain or maintain guild levels. We’ll be making additional balance changes that we think you and your guildmates will appreciate, but for now we have applied the changes without downtime. As of today, you will notice two changes to your renown rates:

1. Renown decay no longer takes guild size into account. This should ease the pressure for guild leaders to “kick” members from the guild to offset daily renown decay rates. Renown decay now only takes a guild’s level into consideration rather than its size.
2. Renown ransack has been increased. Previously when a guild earned levels in a day, it would gradually reduce the renown drop rates. We’ve increased the rate so that a guild can only earn roughly 3 levels in a single day. This should prevent large guilds from completely dominating the field in terms of levels per-day.

There are some balance Pros and Cons to this method, but we’d like guilds to give us feedback about their experiences using the new settings this week. If players like the settings, or feel it is workable with minor tweaks, then we are ready to keep them! If players find the changes make matters worse, then we are scheduled to revert them. So this week, we encourage guild leaders/members to use this thread to give us feedback about how the changes are impacting your guild leveling dynamics. Important feedback for us is points where frustration has eased (or increased). Thanks for your participation as we work to improve our guild leveling system!

These new changes will kill all the guilds who have invested on the quality and not on numbers of their members.

My guild got only 11 very active accounts and we have achieved 93 guild levels in less than 1 year ( see Obscura Consilium - Sarlona), so now we will get the same renow decay of a guild level 93 with 200 accounts right?

Well, this does not seem respectful for all people who put diligence and sacrifices to obtain prestigious levels.

[DocBenway]

As a guild of 6, this change will keep you exactly where you were under the usual system. No decay easing for anyone under 10 in size.

...
I hope this is only a test. If this actually goes live.......It will be a sad day for people that seen Guilds the way they were meant to be seen.
Not as a buffing bonus
As a COMPETITION!

Guilds existed long before artificial numbers were attached. The "meaning" of my guild never had anything to do with competition or buffing bonuses. Guild ships and buffs were introduced well after the guild was formed.

Any competition aspect was introduced with renown. So the semantic nitpicker in me thinks that "meant to be" is not the proper term. "It will be a sad day for people that seen Guilds as competitors" would be more accurate.

[DocBenway]

My guild got only 11 very active accounts and we have achieved 93 guild levels in less than 1 year ( see Obscura Consilium - Sarlona), so now we will get the same renow decay of a guild level 93 with 200 accounts right?

Well, this does not seem respectful for all people who put diligence and sacrifices to obtain prestigious levels.

You have it wrong, you will get hit as though you were a 10 account, rather than the 11 you have now. That 200 member guild will also get hit as a 10 account. Everyone is 10 accounts and uses 20 * LevelMultiplier on the Wiki.

[OpallNotten]

Definition of LEADERBOARD

: a large board for displaying the ranking of the leaders in a competitive event

[DocBenway]

Definition of LEADERBOARD

: a large board for displaying the ranking of the leaders in a competitive event

That didn't exist until renown was introduced at the end of June 2010. It was introduced with renown. Any competition is not an actual part of the game as there is no in game Coin Lord Stanley Cup for being "top dog."

I just had issue with declaring guilds had competition inherent in their meaning when this wasn't the case. The competition is in the minds and spirits of the competitors themselves and that great if that's what turns their crank. What any other guild has has no bearing on my own guild's success/failure.

I take no issue with their being competition for some people, I take issue with that competition being some necessary and quintessential part of any and every guild axiomatically.

[OpallNotten]

I am not trying to argue with you Doc.

I am not alone in thinking it is a competition. There are plenty more that think/feel this way.

All I am getting at is handing victory to Large Guilds that do not deserve it, IMO, is just wrong.

Decay should stay. I like that decay has kept those Guilds in check.

[Tshober]

If this actually goes live.......It will be a sad day for people that seen Guilds the way they were meant to be seen.
Not as a buffing bonus
As a COMPETITION!

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that most people do not view guilds as a competition. At least everyone I hang out with wants and expects guilds to be about cooperation and helping and socializing. If you have been trying to compete with my guild, then you have been competing with an "opponent" who did not know it was a competition and does not want to compete. But congrats on "winning".

[DocBenway]

I am not trying to argue with you Doc.

I am not alone in thinking it is a competition. There are plenty more that think/feel this way.

All I am getting at is handing victory to Large Guilds that do not deserve it, IMO, is just wrong.

Decay should stay. I like that decay has kept those Guilds in check.

Yeah, not an argument but a quibble over definitions that still would never happen prior to renown and the decay thereof.

I just searched the thread to see if I was skimming over references to it while perusing the thread, to get a feel for the amount of support that the competitive aspect is showing. There were 3 posted results (will be 4 with this post) that contained the word leaderboard 1, now 2 are me replying to you, the other 2 are yours.

I would ask that you direct the others you know that like the competitive aspect and how this change gives larges guilds a 30 fold advantage or more, to this thread to post since that aspect of the renown system is being sorely underrepresented.

[Tshober]

These new changes will kill all the guilds who have invested on the quality and not on numbers of their members.

Kill?

Has your guild been rendered unable to advance? NO

Has your guild's advancement been slowed even a little bit? NO

How, exactly, has your guild been harmed?

[madmaxhunter]

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that most people do not view guilds as a competition. At least everyone I hang out with wants and expects guilds to be about cooperation and helping and socializing. If you have been trying to compete with my guild, then you have been competing with an "opponent" who did not know it was a competition and does not want to compete. But congrats on "winning".

Yup, and I'll add, my guild has been around since before there were airships. Have had many wonderful players come and go, and am now level 71. Dekh makes a guild to be in the "sweet zone". recruits power players , makes low 90s in less than a year and then says it's a competition? Competition with a helluva handicap system.

Edit: for correction (sorry Opal)

[OpallNotten]

Yup, and I'll add, my guild has been around since before there were airships. Have had many wonderful players come and go, and am now level 71. Opal makes a guild to be in the "sweet zone". recruits power players , makes low 90s in less than a year and then says it's a competition? Competition with a helluva handicap system.

I am Level 72...not 90.....

My guild has been around since 2006. Started small. Stayed small.

It has taken <o> 1 1/2 + to get to where we are at. <o> was left dormant for the 1st year and a bit.

And have you been to MyDDO? It clearly says LEADERBOARD.....just sayin.....

[madmaxhunter]

I am Level 72...not 90.....

My guild has been around since 2006. Started small. Stayed small.

It has taken <o> 1 1/2 + to get to where we are at. <o> was left dormant for the 1st year and a bit.

And have you been to MyDDO? It clearly says LEADERBOARD.....just sayin.....

So sorry Opal, I retract all that, reading this many posts my eyes got crossed. 93 was Dekh.

[OpallNotten]

So sorry Opal, I retract all that, reading this many posts my eyes got crossed. 93 was Dekh.

lol I understand

Lots to read in this thread.

[Beethoven]

These new changes will kill all the guilds who have invested on the quality and not on numbers of their members ...
Well, this does not seem respectful for all people who put diligence and sacrifices to obtain prestigious levels.

My wife only gets to play 2-3 days, consequently there are weeks were she likely causes more decay than she pulls renown. You basically accuse her of being a low quality player because of it. That's not very respectful either, now is it?

It will be a sad day for people that seen Guilds the way they were meant to be seen.
Not as a buffing bonus
As a COMPETITION!

Certain players spent half the effort 'competing' they spent using the system as cheap excuse to snuff their noses and throw insult the rest of Turbine's customers you might have a point. There has been no mechanism and no system causing an equivalent amount of strife, flame-wars and people coming out of the woodworks to tell others how they doing it wrong than this. You really wonder they change it?

Also, I disagree that you can measure the /quality/ of a guild solely by the amount of chest openings. The quality of a guild has always been and likely will always be measured by the reputation of their members. There are several guilds on Sarlona who built up a reputation as being good and that carries far more weight than the number attached to their guild tag.

You want to compete, I always found there are way better ways to do that; ie: fastest raid completions, achievements of individual members and/or establishing a reputation on your server that makes people recognize the guild tag (there have been guilds who made a point to take a couple pugs on guild raids to teach more and newer players, who hosted regular raids such as Titan, Abbot and Lob, and who got in touch with other guilds to form alliances to help individual members get completions and the latest gear and they got recognition for it).

[Dhalgren]

Guilds are about cooperation. Leaderboards are about competition.

Personally I couldn't care less about the leaderboard.

[Gremmlynn]

Because small guilds get significantly less renown/week now than large guilds. If everyone in a large guild with 100 active players earns a measly 2k renown a day, the guild will get 200k renown. It would be a struggle for a 6-man guild to amass that much in a day.

Nobody is getting less renown/week than they were before. I really don't see what the rest has to do with anything as everyone is playing against the system, not each other.

That's not even mentioning, that I have never seen a large guild with 100 active players. More likely 10 active players and maybe about twice that number of others playing on any particular day in a 100 player guild. Which is why the old system wasn't working. It simply wasn't in the interests of those 10 active players to act as the glue that holds the guild together for the other 90. So we end up with 10 satisfied customers and 90, likely, former customers.

[OpallNotten]

Guilds are about cooperation. Leaderboards are about competition.

Personally I couldn't care less about the leaderboard.

I understand your point of view.

But then why did they title it a "LEADERBOARD"?

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=22372&storypage=2
Note that even he says once you reach a certain level it's more about bragging rights.

[FranOhmsford]

These new changes will kill all the guilds who have invested on the quality and not on numbers of their members.

My guild got only 11 very active accounts and we have achieved 93 guild levels in less than 1 year ( see Obscura Consilium - Sarlona), so now we will get the same renow decay of a guild level 93 with 200 accounts right?

Well, this does not seem respectful for all people who put diligence and sacrifices to obtain prestigious levels.

And yet again the real issue gets lost:

You're Lvl 92 - You will have no problems finding 20-30 active players to join your guild! Even if you're only looking for the right players!

My Guild is Lvl 44 - We have 21 Actives {Up to 1 Month offline} BUT only 2 of whom play regularly - I am the only one who plays every day.
We have less decay now yes BUT it will still take us forever to get up to Lvl 55+ Never mind the 70s or 90s.

Many Guilds of Lvl 30-50 will simply fall by the wayside as the active players get poached by the Tiny Guilds like yours that have already made the highest Levels.
The Tiny Guilds who no longer need to keep their account size so low!
They can recruit now and remain "family orientated" - 30-50 Members will become the Norm, 75 -150 Member Large Guilds will also be popular.
The rest of us will fall by the wayside as no-one with any sense will join a Lvl 30-50 Guild if this change goes into full effect.

BTW of course we're not seeing these things happening during the test - It's a week long test - No Guild leader is going to be foolish enough to start filling his/her guild up yet!

[DocBenway]

http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=22372&storypage=2
Note that even he says once you reach a certain level it's more about bragging rights.

The source of the quote also brought us such classics as "I can take paralyze off of this weapon and put it onto that one" and everyone's favourite "Half-Elves are the most beautiful race in DDO!"

Just sayin...


But seriously ask other guild leaders you know that like the competitive aspect to post, since up until this point in the thread it's gone unmentioned and seems to be something you value in the system. It is important to get as many aspects and supporting viewpoints of those aspects of the system out in the open while the developers are actively looking into Renown.