Time to retire our torcs?

[Devachan]

Before update 14 I used my torc (not epic upgraded btw) as an always-on item for my pale master. Since update 14 I find its use a lot more situational and I am finding myself looking for an alternative main use for my neck slot. The same goes for concordant opposition, by the way (situational use nowadays more than always-on).

Epic hard is now easy enough that I find I rarely need to sit back and soak arrows or melee hits to regain spell points. On epic elite, the mobs hit so hard that you can't soak more than a couple of hits anyway, so you get a bit of incidental sp regen on epic elite but not enough to make a big difference.

So it leaves me wondering whether there is a better item for the neck slot than the torc. A good answer is probably 'the epic-upgraded torc' for the greater spell pen (if only it went to lvl 9 spells). Aside from that, does anyone have any ideas on what is better than the normal torc?

[Buggss]

Probably gonna end up like the Kundarak fom boots, a good item for leveling a TR but of limited use at end-game.

I'd say that was much more useful than a small improvement from epicing it but meaning you can't use it earlier than 20.

[aradelothion]

I just finished my 60th run yesterday; still no Torc. Can I has yours?

[Tid12]

Probably gonna end up like the Kundarak fom boots, a good item for leveling a TR but of limited use at end-game.

I'd say that was much more useful than a small improvement from epicing it but meaning you can't use it earlier than 20.

Kundarak Boots are the best boots so far if you solo, short man or haven't a clr/fvs with fom. The casters in the new quests spam Mass holds every 2 secs.

As for the OP:

Torc is a situational item. It's good for quests with few shrines or noone at all or where you wanna go all out and have the patient to sit down and torc. On Epic Elite, like on every other mode, you don't want to be hit by melee hits, just archers. Even on EE, you can make good use of it with just an Epic Ring of Mire and a shield.

[sirgog]

Consider a radiance guard HP item in situations where you can't handle more than 3 or 4 hits. Nothing says 'I don't want you hitting me twice' quite like that. In places where you can safely Torc, you usually can manage without the 45 HP.

But if you are determined to keep the 45 HP full time, another option is a Radiance Guard item with any positive first tier (they all suck), then either +1/+2 exceptional Reflex save (I think those still stack) or 5/10 exceptional fire resist.


That said, I perma-Torc still, and kite when under heavy aggro. Even when mobs hit for 150, you usually don't mind one hit every 4-5 seconds, and if you are kiting that's not an unlikely amount of hits to take.

[donfilibuster]

Would definitely like to know if there's any other good necklace to wear.
Been almost 50 tries without torc, during which only seen it drop once.

As it is now the palemaster is one build that can stand in the hurt for it to work.
I have a con-op item and works as expected, so i suppose torc is equally useful.

[bigolbear]

In my opinion it was always an item aimed at those specific individuals who both:
1. had a mana bar and used it often.
2. engaged in mele on a regular basis.

For these kind of characters its still **** useful. I have on on my battle cleric and I rarely if ever block and torc. I find the sp regen just helps me extend my mana pool as I play normaly.

Im seeking one for my spell sword too - 40+ runs and no luck tho, if i was to roll a paladin or a tempest ranger then its an item id want on them.

Conversely my wizard hasnt got one, and to be honest ive not felt the need for one on that character for all the reasons you listed - I was never into solo farming epic scrolls so for me the situation has not changed between now and previously.

Perhaps with the changes people will start to realise that using a torc in normal group play is not actualy all that beneficial unless you intend to be on the front lines.

[sirgog]

Perhaps with the changes people will start to realise that using a torc in normal group play is not actualy all that beneficial unless you intend to be on the front lines.

What has changed is that pre MOTU usually casters wanted to be on the front lines taking every melee hit they could (with rare exceptions) because being hit was a good thing and PMs had some of the best damage mitigation in the game. Wasn't just melee builds either - it was almost universally true that it was better to have an epic mob swinging at a Pale Master than at, say, a Stalwart Defender - the Defender would lose HP and gain no resources (minimal loss) while the PM would gain SP and be able to handle their own heals (moderate gain).

Now mobs hit too hard for that strategy to work any more.

[PNellesen]

In my opinion it was always an item aimed at those specific individuals who both:
1. had a mana bar and used it often.
2. engaged in mele on a regular basis.

For these kind of characters its still **** useful. I have on on my battle cleric and I rarely if ever block and torc. I find the sp regen just helps me extend my mana pool as I play normaly.

Yeah, I like being able to get some SP BACK from Harry now, to make up for all the times he drained my blue bar faster than I could keep up with the healing because I misunderstood where the cleric should stand in a boss fight

[Lord_WC]

Now mobs hit too hard for that strategy to work any more.

It's not that bad what people make it out to be. Actually it's probably the best item for any self-healer out there.

I don't really have new numbers just some year-old ones, so I have proc rate of 15% for 22sp on average. This means that on every damaging hit you get back 3,3sp. On my sorc I think I have 486 reconstruct for 35 sp with 12% chance for 729. This amounts to an average of 515 heal for 35 sp, or 14,7 hp for every sp.

Considering all this a torc gives an average equivalent of 48,57 DR, which is the single most awesome defensive thing available out there. Anyone not wanting it or taking it down for any reason is out of his mind.

[AtomicMew]

Consider a radiance guard HP item in situations where you can't handle more than 3 or 4 hits. Nothing says 'I don't want you hitting me twice' quite like that. In places where you can safely Torc, you usually can manage without the 45 HP.

But if you are determined to keep the 45 HP full time, another option is a Radiance Guard item with any positive first tier (they all suck), then either +1/+2 exceptional Reflex save (I think those still stack) or 5/10 exceptional fire resist.


That said, I perma-Torc still, and kite when under heavy aggro. Even when mobs hit for 150, you usually don't mind one hit every 4-5 seconds, and if you are kiting that's not an unlikely amount of hits to take.

For an average gain of 300-400 SP after 10 minutes of pure combat. It's hard to say, but I think a slot is worth more than 300-400 SP. GSP XIII is nice, but meh....

[Wipey]

Iusing a torc in normal group play is not actualy all that beneficial unless you intend to be on the front lines.

I think it has always been about balance between taking and dealing damage on palemaster. With on hit procs items
( Mabar or Abbot robe, dq bracers and belt, enervation guard ) some DR and aura on you WANT to be in the middle of things and in that situation you are getting lot of sp back from Torc and conc opp greensteel. Pop a displace if it goes pearshaped. It really lets you do some incredibly stupid stuff and very addictive :-)

Unless you are stoned newbie divine, you are playing much the same on cleric/fvs ?
Many times more effective while levelling, experienced or not, it's a great help.

Don't see it changing soon, what would you wear anyway ? Sincere question.

[Ancient]

Still wearing mine, but I'm working through the same question. At the very least I'm considering having another item to swap in while doing epic elites.

[Chai]

Decent amount of DR + archer mob = full tank of mana with a torc + conc op.

Most casters arent trying to go for PRR though.

[Ape_Man]

Decent amount of DR + archer mob = full tank of mana with a torc + conc op.

Most casters arent trying to go for PRR though.

What are archers hitting for in Epic Elite? Not a sarcastic question as I cannot recall.

The OP's point is E-Hard doesn't require this and EE might be causing too much damage per hit to effectively "torc."

[Chai]

What are archers hitting for in Epic Elite? Not a sarcastic question as I cannot recall.

The OP's point is E-Hard doesn't require this and EE might be causing too much damage per hit to effectively "torc."

Epic archers hit for estimated 80% what melee hits for + they cripple shot alot, which can be the end of the road if you are kiting other mobs. Torcing can still be done with PRR, DR, and blocking, but its not nearly as efficient as it used to be, and has to be a more stars aligned situation. Its not similar to TOD where you leave 5 mobs alive and they are all hitting you for 6 damage each, heh. You have to keep yorself healed which means either spending more mana (counterproductive to torcing in the first place) or have very high concentration for scroll use. This can also mean using terrain to block while self healing, like going around the corner, hit a scroll, come back around and take more hits to get more mana.

E hard doesnt require this because it scales. If youre soloing theres a HUGE difference between hard and elite because hard scales while elite does not. If youre grouped, hard scales for the group, but now you have more people to easily wipe out mobs. Elite is the same old elite. High incomming damage potential, and inflated HP totals. The damage is high enough where torcing isnt easy.

[Ancient]

Decent amount of DR + archer mob = full tank of mana with a torc + conc op.

Most casters arent trying to go for PRR though.

I have my hopes set on a dwarven defender Cleric or FVS with high PRR. Time will tell...

[FZTopaz]

While I don't have my Torc.....yet.....(on try 33!)....Right now I am wearing the War Wizard's necklace. Stacking 150sp , plus a couple other goodies. I also have the Bracers and robe, so I get the 10% discount on spells. My plan is, once I get my Torc, keep the WW amulet on, when I'm getting low on SP, switch to Torc and get hit!

[soulaeon]

What exactly is better for that slot than a Torc? None of the new set items make up for it.

[Rawel_San]

Epic archers hit for estimated 80% what melee hits for + they cripple shot alot, which can be the end of the road if you are kiting other mobs. Torcing can still be done with PRR, DR, and blocking, but its not nearly as efficient as it used to be, and has to be a more stars aligned situation. Its not similar to TOD where you leave 5 mobs alive and they are all hitting you for 6 damage each, heh. You have to keep yorself healed which means either spending more mana (counterproductive to torcing in the first place) or have very high concentration for scroll use. This can also mean using terrain to block while self healing, like going around the corner, hit a scroll, come back around and take more hits to get more mana.

E hard doesnt require this because it scales. If youre soloing theres a HUGE difference between hard and elite because hard scales while elite does not. If youre grouped, hard scales for the group, but now you have more people to easily wipe out mobs. Elite is the same old elite. High incomming damage potential, and inflated HP totals. The damage is high enough where torcing isnt easy.

Many many things wrong here.

First at the very least some (but from a gut feeling most) ranged mobs hit nowhere near for 80% of damage
that melee mobs hit. Ranged hits for about 30-50 a pop vs. melee in the same quests hitting for 130-200 a pop.
The fact that actual archers tend to use piercing, which allows use of epic ring of mire, helps a huge amount.

Second epic elite scales.. A LOT. The damage scales less then the hp but both scale. Hp scales by about 30%
per person. You can easilly check this using the MM's see your oponents hp. Sahuagin in ee fathom go from
~6000 hp with one person in to ~8000 hp with two people in.

Torcing off archers when soloing ee seemed super easy. Admitedly I was doing unquiet graves and impossible
demands when testing it, but in unquiet graves I had 2-3 archers on me and my mana bar was going up like
crazy with only decent amounts of attention paying.