Time to retire our torcs?

[HungarianRhapsody]

What has changed is that pre MOTU usually casters wanted to be on the front lines taking every melee hit they could (with rare exceptions) because being hit was a good thing and PMs had some of the best damage mitigation in the game. Wasn't just melee builds either - it was almost universally true that it was better to have an epic mob swinging at a Pale Master than at, say, a Stalwart Defender - the Defender would lose HP and gain no resources (minimal loss) while the PM would gain SP and be able to handle their own heals (moderate gain).

Now mobs hit too hard for that strategy to work any more.

I find myself in a similar position. I used to want all of the aggro that I could get because, hey! Free spell points! Also, it was often better for me to have the aggro than a self-described tank because I could self heal far better than the DPS melee who called himself a tank could.

After U14, I still wear the Torc because I still like getting SP from being hit and I still get hit. The only difference is that I no longer actively seek opportunities to get hit. If someone else wants to take those hits, I'm glad to let him. I know I'll still get hit often enough that the Torc will be worth wearing. ...at least until I find a specific item that makes me seriously consider giving up my Torc - and I haven't found one yet. Even without "Torcing up" by letting enemies hit me while I wait for my blue bar to grow, I still get a very nice number of SP from the hits that I get naturally as part of running through a quest.

[Xezrak]

Epic normal yeah I would be more than happy to torc, but I think epic elite I think its a better idea to wear something else, I think a pally would find a torc more useful than my casters now .

[Tid12]

Epic normal yeah I would be more than happy to torc, but I think epic elite I think its a better idea to wear something else, I think a pally would find a torc more useful than my casters now .

Not really. Archers do crappy damage if you have a shield and Greater Spearblock. It still has its uses even in EE. Besides, as stated above, there isn't a better necklace yet.

[WanderingGrump]

I have a 3xPos GS SP/CHA SKill/Raise Dead Necklace I use and plan to continue to use on my PM until I get a Torc (38 Runs and only one seen so far and not mine). That's the only thing that I want to swap into the Neck slot. The War Wizard necklace just is junk really and at least with the GS Necklace I have I get the UMD bonus and a fair bit of extra SP that keeps other slots open.

So far I don't know of any other necklace that isn't more than a clickie. I do use a few of the Shav ones on occasion but it's very situational.

[AtomicMew]

I think it has always been about balance between taking and dealing damage on palemaster. With on hit procs items
( Mabar or Abbot robe, dq bracers and belt, enervation guard ) some DR and aura on you WANT to be in the middle of things and in that situation you are getting lot of sp back from Torc and conc opp greensteel. Pop a displace if it goes pearshaped. It really lets you do some incredibly stupid stuff and very addictive :-)

Unless you are stoned newbie divine, you are playing much the same on cleric/fvs ?
Many times more effective while levelling, experienced or not, it's a great help.

Don't see it changing soon, what would you wear anyway ? Sincere question.

Too many variations to consider, but at the very least you could wear a greensteel HP in the slot and free up a slot somewhere else that way. Tons of great loot in U14/U15 that it is actually a very tough choice.

[AtomicMew]

Not really. Archers do crappy damage if you have a shield and Greater Spearblock. It still has its uses even in EE. Besides, as stated above, there isn't a better necklace yet.

Yes, but it is now more of a situational swap item than a full time one.

[Tid12]

Yes, but it is now more of a situational swap item than a full time one.

It always was to me. It is nice to get some SP back while you wear it but I can count on one hand the times I stopped and used it to refill the whole mana pool. 2 being when I soloed the MotU stuff on EE.

Untill I find something to wear full time, I'll keep wearing it. But if a better necklace (or gloves, so I can move my GS HP gloves to neck) comes out, I won't have too many problems swapping it out.

[nikos1313]

i am debating if i want to go after the eternal search for torc, on my wiz also.. but i think i wont, in the end. This will be my gear:

Head, Cloak, Gloves, Boots, Bracers --> Chrono set.

Neck: GS HP item

Trinket: Litany

Armor: Spidersilk Robe( +3 Insight Inteligence)

Goggles: +8 Int with Large Guild slot, +80 SP

Ring 1: Rahkirs, with +2 insight bonus. Though it actually gives me just +1 exceptional Inteligence, coz +2 insightfull wont stack with +3 from armor.

Ring 2: Draconic Ring, with +2 insight Constitution

Belt: GS SP item.

i can have rahkirs set, but i think i will like more the GS in there. Im more of DC n not a nuker, so i wont miss much. Up to now, i havent decided what my GS items will have, on their last tier as a bonus property.. but i had a Con Op item for a time, and was workin pretty bad, so i wont go there again.

[mystafyi]

HUGE difference between hard and elite because hard scales while elite does not.

stop spreading incorrect information please. all dificulties scale since turbine put in scaling. The reason for the confusion is a dev stated incorrectly that elite did not scale.

[Faent]

The Torc is still awesome. Any competent caster will have one (or seek one).

[Devachan]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I am now thinking it might be worth using the neck slot to put one of my GS items in, which will then free up another slot for something else.

I currently have Goggles (conc opp with spell points) and Gloves (enervation guard with hit points). The gloves are cleansed so easiest to leave them in place.

So now I need to think about what Goggles I would use if I move conc opp + spell points out of goggles and into my neck slot. Nothing instantly comes to mind that would be a clear winner over a torc, but it does open the thinking up a bit more than just considering what other necklace would beat a torc.

EDIT: very tempted to make a radiance guard item as Sirgog suggests, however I like the +Cha skills and the blindness / disease immunity on the conc opp item, so i think that tips the balance towards me keeping Conc Opps as my main GS item with +spell points.

[sirgog]

stop spreading incorrect information please. all dificulties scale since turbine put in scaling. The reason for the confusion is a dev stated incorrectly that elite did not scale.

This has largely been fixed in MOTU. Elite does not scale in any significant amount and epic elite certainly does not scale at all. (Edit. Looks like I'm wrong here but scaling is pretty minimal compared to other difficulties)

[Rawel_San]

This has largely been fixed in MOTU. Elite does not scale in any significant amount and epic elite certainly does not scale at all.

This is patently not true. Epic elite does scale. Both damage and hp. Damage is a bit harder to see since the
numbers are quite high either way and the spread is decent but hp is super easy to test now we can see it.
Jump into epic elite fathom with one person and then have another enter. You will see mob hp jump from 6000
to 8000. On the same mob. While you are watching.

[sirgog]

It's not that bad what people make it out to be. Actually it's probably the best item for any self-healer out there.

I don't really have new numbers just some year-old ones, so I have proc rate of 15% for 22sp on average. This means that on every damaging hit you get back 3,3sp. On my sorc I think I have 486 reconstruct for 35 sp with 12% chance for 729. This amounts to an average of 515 heal for 35 sp, or 14,7 hp for every sp.

Considering all this a torc gives an average equivalent of 48,57 DR, which is the single most awesome defensive thing available out there. Anyone not wanting it or taking it down for any reason is out of his mind.

This would be true if those hits didn't run the risk of killing you. (Your torc proc info is pretty close, 15%/5d6+5 was Vanshilar's conclusion after extensive testing).

But if you sit at 600hp and do not run Displacement (to maximize Torc chances), getting hit by even one crippling arrow when you have the aggro of three EE melee monsters is near-certain death, especially if those are mobs with any Fortification bypass. Even Displaced you are at significant risk and you will probably need to throw a lot of extra spells to extricate yourself from this situation.

I cannot count the number of times I've Torced up 100 or so SP, then had to spend 200+ to survive when things went ugly. (On my FVS that usually means casting Quickened Heal, then needing to throw two max-empped-quickened Cures to survive until Heal can be used again, then because I only keep Mass Cures in quick-access hotbar slots, those are the more expensive Mass Cures instead of the single-target ones).

I still wear the item full-time, but I don't think it's as clear-cut as you indicate.

[Rawel_San]

I'm not sure how minimal the scaling is. From what I've seen the scaling is probably almost exactly the same as
in old elites. I.e. mob hp about double with a full party and if the damage from the bears in ee druid's curse
is any indicator that goes up from 150-180 solo to about 240-280 with full party. Not quite double but probably
between 40 and 80%. Some screenshots attached.

[countfitz]

Odd, I went from serious alt-itis to a main toon only guy with LOTS of mules after finally getting my Torc, and I still feel that way even at the new cap, in all epics, in large raids, etc.

It gives me a good 400 extra SPs, when paired with my con op (which is my extra SP item too, so it stays).

It's the same as a bauble, IMO, granted one that doesn't get to swap in and out.

I don't have the heart to epic it, I may still TR... but maybe one day.

But I guess I'm more a battle cleric/generalist that always, always gets in the middle of the melee, so it goes off more, and I've got an infinite aura that heals 100 per tick average.

My only issue is, as a cleric, we now have an AC that kinda rocks, so I get lots of misses on Epic Normal, and even EH, so sometimes I do BETTER on EE. (Ha ha, all you saying do EE for a better challenge and stop complaining EH is too easy!)

[MsEricka]

Pale Master + Concordant Opposition + Epic Torc + Death Aura = I can walk away from the keyboard for 2+ minutes and come back with full health and full SP.

As stated, the Torc is not dead. It's situational as it always has been.

[scoobmx]

I use noxious embers, with a swap on quest entrance to crafted necklace with large slot (for more sp). Noxious embers is still a really great necklace.

[Jasparion]

I just finished my 60th run yesterday; still no Torc. Can I has yours?

Got mine after 40. Wasnt even that interested in it, but got a heap of junk and stuff I already had, so I went with Torc.

[Cinos]

The Torc is still awesome. Any competent caster will have one (or seek one).

For free, maybe. Like if a friend goes, "hey I have all these free torcs/green steel materials, do you want one?"

But there's no way I'd put in any effort in the desert, considering the drop rate and situationality of it. Nor is it needed for any difficulty - I've soloed everything EH and below without needing mana refills, and EEs I've grouped. Maybe if you need to solo EE for whatever reason it'd be handy.