A calm discussion regarding Divines

[Ballyspringer]

I can see both sides of this coin, and here's my 2 cents - although it is a rehash of what is said above

I can still heal well enough on end game content with my melee Horc FvS - but a point mentioned above to me is the big take-away of this - epic items (and lvl 20+ random items) for melee healers being no where near the equivelent that arcanes and non-melee divines have (ex the epic mask of comedy being 78 divine spellpower.... c'mon really? I'm not saying it should be 108 because it was never perfect, but what about bumping it to 90 being an epic item for healers? - and to take into consideration the epic ring of elemental essences - same chain - 90 sp for fire/acid/cold/electricity on 1 non weapon item for arcanes). Divine spell power on more items other that weapons and shields (and in better than 50-70 amounts you typically see on lvl 20+ items) would make me perfectly happy

[DeafeningWhisper]

I think to those of us who play divines, it hits too hard. To those who don't, it just does not matter, and they are tired of hearing us complain about it. I am completely confused by the lack of reaction from the melee. It may be that too many divines are utilizing too many resources in keeping parties going. This is unsustainable, and the result soon will be fewer divines willing to do this.

I really, truly feel that the lack of reaction from the Devs on this is very telling. We got one big, long post about how we were not "really" nerfed, and one big Q & A post. Nothing has been done other than being told it is WAI.

It leads me to believe that divines are being told that we can do ONE thing well from now on. We apparently get to choose what that one thing is, but just one thing. What I really do not grasp is WHY. Versatility is a cornerstone of DnD and DDO. This is truly not consistent with my previous experience of either.

I am trying my hardest to avoid pointing fingers at any other class, because I don't want this to degenerate into a childish argument. However, I know that the devs listened when other classes complained about certain recent proposed nerfs to their abilities. Do we not deserve, at the very least, a discussion as to why these changes were deemed necessary?

I do comprehend that increasing the efficacy of cure spells was a desired result as druids and other classes utilize cures to heal parties. Cures did indeed need a buff. They did a good thing for bards and druids.(I can speak to this as I have one of each.) What I fail to grasp is WHY Heal and Mass Heal needed downgrading to accomplish this end.

I do apologize for sort of sidetracking your thread.

Why nerf heal and heal mass? Simple, to control content difficulty.

If everyone gets stronger, hits harder and has more and better defenses the simplest way to keep encounters challenging is by limiting the healers capabilities.

[tasebro]

I get a chuckle out of those claiming there will be a shortage of divines. Even if there was some sort of mass exodus, it would be temporary at most. Nature abhors a vacuum, and DDO is no different. What "may" happen, is certain builds and playstyles will fade away as the community adapts. Soon, there will be a new generation of divine's to fill the void left by the disgruntled, who won't need to adapt and overcome...they simply won't know any different....

I agree with Chuckles here, and our new generation of divines are called Gold Seal hires....

...Or, you can choose to not bother swapping gear at all, and your heals will be less for it. Doesn't mean that it's not a valid choice. You can still heal, you're just choosing more dps over healing.

The heart of the spellpower change is that it makes you choose what your strengths and weaknesses are. Whereas before, you could heal max with a simple clickie, now you have to make a choice....

Utter nonsense.
The heart of the "spellpower change" is just a *nerf* for divine casting, and thats all it is; it has nothing whatsoever to do with any "choice", real or imagined; just the opposite in fact: that nerf *eliminates* choice, and that is just lame -- it is *not* "fun" or "awesome".

Here is what *real* choice (as related to DDO) is:
I *choose* to use a logitech G510 programmable gaming keyboard with an abundance or programmable keys that can record, edit, and playback keystrokes in real time.
In the past, I have have deliberately used this to (among other things) bypass the crippled cleric radiant burst gaffe (where the player cannot burst unless you have yourself targeted), by simply using the keystroke recorder to playback the sequence needed to produce a burst precisely, and reliably--nothing I could not do explicitly with finger manipulation every time, but I can accomplish the same thing much *much* faster *and with no error* using one keystroke to initiate the keystroke sequence playback. Precisely timed, in mid jump, to put heals exactly where they need to go to get maximum effect, for minimum investment. The percentage difference that sort of effort makes is very small, but it ads up, and so became a huge difference over time.

Yes, this is an advantage for me to be able to bypass the limitations put in place to stop me from doing just that. That is a choice I make to give myself the advantage. I have even considered building a foot switch setup to conserve even *more* time, just to eek out those precious few seconds here and there.
I *choose* to do this not because I am "weak" at healing myself or others, no, I do it because it saves me *time*, and resources to do *other things than heal*, such as maneuver, shoot (DPS), communicate. The key point here was the *DPS contribution*, rather than the heals; the heals were merely the prerequisite to better, more important things, and there being only 60 seconds in a minute in which to make that contribution, so efficiency in operation is very, very significant.

If I wanted to, I can also use this same keyboard to program *all sorts* of gear swaps mated to specific spellcasts, focus gear, clickies and SLAs, you name it. Again, this gives me a huge advantage in bypassing what has been put in place to prevent me from doing just that, particularly when the Quick Draw feat is included.

But really, that workaround is just a hack. A clever hack, but in the end just a technological hack solution that whould not even be worthwhile at all, but for this nerfing of divine casters.
I dont like seeing *anyone* get nerfed. I want to see *everyone* succeede.
And while I am *not* morally above using technology to counter/bypass nerfs, but at the same time, I am not interested in investing more and more effort just to end up treading water, or having the Carrot made smaller, and put out there on a longer and longer Stick.

[ShadowFlash]

I agree with Chuckles here...

Finally, a nickname that passes the profanity filters

Chuckles

[Saravis]

I need some kind of proof that this statement is true.

I am an "effective" healer in every group I've been in, and I'm carrying around a Lit II greataxe. "Effective" healing doesn't require the best possible gear. I DID have to give up an inventory slot, which means one less slot I can use for melee bonuses, but I haven't had to give up my WEAPON, which I think most people are complaining about.

Admittedly effective wasn't the right term to use as its very subjective and opinionated, how about optimal?

Optimal healing can only be achieved by sacrificing a weapon slot. Prior to the update both caster and melee divines could achieve the same gear heal amplification (ardor clickies). Now casters can still achieve the same abilities, but melees are expected to sacrifice their melee if they want to have optimal healing because the optimal healing gear is only found on weapons.

Also for what its worth, you did admit to having to sacrifice your melee effectiveness for better heals. So you did prove my point.

[tasebro]

Finally, a nickname that passes the profanity filters

Chuckles

Glad you liked it.
Its about time I got some appreciation for all the hard work I do for this forum.

[Noctus]

Not everyone wants to be a healbot. We should not be discouraging players from rolling a divine unless we want to only have players who like to healbot. Choices and challenges should not be introduced when every group still waits the longest for divines.
Ability to both melee and heal well or offensive cast and heal is what kept a lot of people interested.
I don't want dissatisfied or frustrated divines. They've already made me only group for raids and debating a tr into sorcerer or wizard. I'd hate to think other divines are considering such thoughts.

/signed.

My words out of this poster`s mouth.

[DDORylak]

One of the fundamental problems that few people have touched on is not the nerfs, though they are there whether people want to admit it or not.

It is this:

The gearing options for divine classes (particularly clerics) are severely lacking and have been for some time.

• Most of the old devotion items, even the epics, are feeble compared to the random loot people are finding now.
  
• Shortsword and medium armor in the MotU cleric set? Please.
  
• Holy Symbol of Lolth is nice and all, but it takes up the precious trinket slot, which conflicts with the Planar Focus.
  
• Where is the weapon that has devotion/radiance on it that can still do decent damage?
  
• How about some casting equipment for divines?
  
• Arcane Augmentation? Where's the Divine version? Where's Radiant Lore?
  
• Here's a crazy thought: some spell focus on a named divine item. They cast non-healing spells too, you know. And while you're at it, throw some Spell Pen on it too, no one will mind.

[Ranncore]

One of the fundamental problems that few people have touched on is not the nerfs, though they are there whether people want to admit it or not.

It is this:

The gearing options for divine classes (particularly clerics) are severely lacking and have been for some time.

• Most of the old devotion items, even the epics, are feeble compared to the random loot people are finding now.
  
• Shortsword and medium armor in the MotU cleric set? Please.
  
• Holy Symbol of Lolth is nice and all, but it takes up the precious trinket slot, which conflicts with the Planar Focus.
  
• Where is the weapon that has devotion/radiance on it that can still do decent damage?
  
• How about some casting equipment for divines?
  
• Arcane Augmentation? Where's the Divine version? Where's Radiant Lore?
  
• Here's a crazy thought: some spell focus on a named divine item. They cast non-healing spells too, you know. And while you're at it, throw some Spell Pen on it too, no one will mind.

This. It's not that it's hard to find good gear for clerics - it simply doesn't exist.

The highest devotion spell power item in the entire game right now comes from the Sacred Band/Helm set, at a whopping 90. (This set bonus is actually not working right now, by the way)

Or, you can get the Wizard item, Twilight, Element of Magic, which gives +80 universal and +21 spellcasting implement.
So the best option to gear my cleric with is... to find some items meant for a wizard?!

And Aumantors Breastplate? Chitin Breastplate? Medium armors, clearly for favored souls.

So the best armor I can find on my cleric... is actually for a fighter.

If Turbine expects me to pay them so much as 1$ for any new content in u15 so that I can gear out my cleric (which they nerfed, then forgot to make loot for), they'd better make sure u14 is actually working first. Which seems pretty far fetched right now.

*edit - by the way, everyone should take a look at this thread. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=386429 Compilation of epic items that give less than 90 spellpower

as if we we're limited enough by the terrible loot afforded to clerics, they went and nerfed all of it. then they forgot to make anything for us in MoTU.

[Raithe]

This. It's not that it's hard to find good gear for clerics - it simply doesn't exist.

The highest devotion spell power item in the entire game right now comes from the Sacred Band/Helm set, at a whopping 90. (This set bonus is actually not working right now, by the way)

There is a devotion ring of bluffing +13 on the Thelanis auction house with 102 spellpower. Granted it costs 750k, but it exists. I purchased a devotion ring for my bard to wear in the swappable right hand position that has 90 spellpower, and it works. I think it was like 15k.

Which brings up the point that we never used to have destinies before, we never used to have Healing Spring, Endless Faith, or Healing Power. You people are quibbling over a couple dozen spellpower that simply isn't that important. Most every cleric that I have ever grouped with overheals, and does so remorselessly. My ranger's healing power has effectively doubled since the expansion was released, and we now have druids. Healing has not been nerfed.

All that is happening in this thread is that we have some people who are having a hard time adjusting to changes in game mechanics. No, you can't simply equip a high powered potency item and be the ultimate. Potency is actually pretty pathetic nowadays... get used to it.

[Ranncore]

There is a devotion ring of bluffing +13 on the Thelanis' auction house .

I'm sorry, I meant gear that I could quest for, ie, I play the game to level up and find loot for my characters.

If there's nothing for me to get out of a quest, I'm not going to spend pots completing it (I'm looking at you with your SP drain eye bolt, Lolth).

I'm sorry, but grinding cash for my cleric to buy his top end gear off the AH is not fun.

And taking an Epic Destiny to catch up to the point I was at pre-u14 instead of become more powerful (like every other class in the game) is not fun.

[Ranncore]

Healing has not been nerfed

Also, I suggest you look into the math on this. Here, I'll give it to you. Thank you Darkfort for this.

It severely irritates me that people complain spells weren't nerfed, when a trivial calculation shows so. I have shown my numbers on this multiple times, and will do so again, in hopes of demonstrating to those that choose not to run their numbers through, due to whichever constraints that apply.

NOTE THAT THE NUMBERS HERE ONLY APPLY TO HEAL. *INSERT BY ME* Only Heal was nerfed because it only applies to Cleric and FVS - Cure spells were buffed because That's What the New Pay to Play Class Uses* Healing aura wasn't affected by the nerf, so it should be hitting for more, since it was only affected by empower healing.

EDIT: I completely forgot to include eardweller in my figures (since I never bothered to get one), but I imagine it would work worse in all cases (125%/2 versus 125%*metamagics).

Case in point 1:20 Favored soul/5 epic, without empower healing, wearing the best static items available, and taking the full enhancement line.

Previous multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 0.4 {enhancements} + 0.5 {item} = 1.9
Note that such a value is achieved by level 15 on a favored soul.

Current spellpower: 80/2 {enhancements} + 120/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} = 107.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 67.5/100 = 2.075

It's been buffed in this case. However, note that such a value can only be achieved at level 25 on a favored soul, due to the availability of devotion 120 items. Let's see what happens to this guy at levels 15 and 20:

Current spellpower at level 15: 80/2 {enhancements} + 72/2 {item} + 12/2 {implement} = 82
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 82/100 = 1.82

Current spellpower at level 20: 80/2 {enhancements} + 90/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} = 92.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 92.5/100 = 1.925

So, at level 15, heals have been nerfed all around, and at 20, to have them better than before, you MUSTwield a caster weapon on your hand. If you want to melee while you heal, the values are reduced to:

Current spellpower at level 15 using a melee weapon: 80/2 {enhancements} + 72/2 {item}= 76
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 76/100 = 1.76

Current spellpower at level 20 using a melee weapon: 80/2 {enhancements} + 90/2 {item}= 85
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 85/100 = 1.85

Current spellpower at level 25 using a melee weapon: 80/2 {enhancements} + 120/2 {item}= 100
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 100/100 = 2.00

This shows that someone in this situation that wants to wield a two-handed weapon is worse off than before, unless they're using ML 25 gear, in which case, they're better off (however, I have yet to see a +120 non-weapon devotion item drop).

---
Let us see what happens when clickies enter the equation:

Case in point 2:20 Favored soul/5 epic, without empower healing, wearing the best static items available, running with the best clickies all the time and taking the full enhancement line.

Previous multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 0.4 {enhancements} + 0.75 {clicky} = 2.15
Note that such a value is achieved by level 15 on a favored soul.

Current spellpower: 80/2 {enhancements} + 120/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} + 20/2 {clicky} = 117.5
]Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 117.5/100 = 2.175

Again, heals are very slightly buffed in this situation. Note that such a value can only be achieved at level 25 on a favored soul, due to the availability of devotion 120 items and +20 clickies (available at level 18 from Amrath), while superior devotion VI clickies were available at level 15 or below.

Let's see what happens to this guy at levels 15 and 20:

Current spellpower at level 15: 80/2 {enhancements} + 72/2 {item} + 12/2 {implement} + 15/2 {clicky} = 89.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 89.5/100 = 1.895

Current spellpower at level 20: 80/2 {enhancements} + 90/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} + 20/2 {clicky} = 102.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 102.5/100 = 2.025

Now, your heals are worse than before while leveling, even if you wield a caster weapon on your hand. If you want to melee while you heal, the values are reduced to:

Current spellpower at level 15: 80/2 {enhancements} + 72/2 {item} + 15/2 {clicky}= 83.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 83.5/100 = 1.835

Current spellpower at level 20: 80/2 {enhancements} + 90/2 {item} + 20/2 {clicky}= 95
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 95/100 = 1.95

Current spellpower at level 25: 80/2 {enhancements} + 120/2 {item} + 20/2 {clicky}= 110
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 110/100 = 2.1

This shows that anyone in this situation that wants to wield a two-handed weapon is worse off than before, even with ML 25 gear (however, I have yet to see a +120 non-weapon devotion item drop).

---
Let's introduce Empower Healing in the calculations (a feat not every favored soul takes but those more intent on healing).

Case in point 3: 20 Favored soul/5 epic, using empower healing, wearing the best static items available and taking the full enhancement line.

Previous multiplier: (1.0 {base} + 0.4 {enhancements} + 0.5 {item})* 1.5{empower healing} = 2.85
Note that such a value is achieved by level 15 on a favored soul.

Current spellpower: 80/2 {enhancements} + 120/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} + 75 {empower healing} = 182.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 182.5/100 = 2.825

It's been slightly nerfed in this case. However, note that such a value can only be achieved at level 25 on a favored soul, due to the availability of devotion 120 items. Let's see what happens to this guy at levels 15 and 20:

Current spellpower at level 15: 80/2 {enhancements} + 72/2 {item} + 12/2 {implement} + 75 {empower healing} = 157
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 157/100 = 2.57

Current spellpower at level 20: 80/2 {enhancements} + 90/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} + 75 {empower healing} = 167.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 167.5/100 = 2.675

So, if you invested more into healing on your favored soul, by taking the feat, you won't break even with the best gear in the game and you are all around a worse healer when leveling your character. This post is already too long, so I will abstain from showing the maths for level 15 and 20 characters using non-thaumaturgy two-handed weapons (they'll obviously be even worse off).

Current spellpower at level 25: 80/2 {enhancements} + 120/2 {item} + 75 {empower healing} = 175
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 175/100 = 2.75

Which is still strictly worse than what a level 15 could do in u13.
---

Case in point 4: 20 Favored soul/5 epic, using empower healing, wearing the best static items available, running the best possible clickies and taking the full enhancement line.

Previous multiplier: (1.0 {base} + 0.4 {enhancements} + 0.75 {clicky})* 1.5{empower healing} = 3.225
Note that such a value is achieved by level 15 on a favored soul.

Current spellpower: 80/2 {enhancements} + 120/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} + 75 {empower healing} + 20/2 {clicky} = 192.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 192.5/100 = 2.925

It's been slightly nerfed in this case. However, note that such a value can only be achieved at level 25 on a favored soul, due to the availability of devotion 120 items. Let's see what happens to this guy at levels 15 and 20:

Current spellpower at level 15: 80/2 {enhancements} + 72/2 {item} + 12/2 {implement} + 75 {empower healing} + 15/2 {clicky} = 164.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 164.5/100 = 2.645

Current spellpower at level 20: 80/2 {enhancements} + 90/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} + 75 {empower healing} + 20/2 {clicky} = 177.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 177.5/100 = 2.775

Again, you won't break even with the best gear in the game and you are all around a worse healer when leveling your character. Calculations for melee builds are superfluous (I've already estabilished heals will be worse even for those who regear and forget about melee).
---
"But, but, Ekkehart, what about clerics? Did you forget about them?"... Nope! Two more cases, one without clickies and one with them.

Case in point 5: 20 Cleric/5 epic, Radiant Servant II, using empower healing, wearing the best static items available and taking the full enhancement line.

Previous multiplier: (1.0 {base} + 0.4 {enhancements} + 0.5 {item})* 1.75{empower healing} = 3.325
Note that such a value is achieved by level 15 on a cleric.

Current spellpower: 80/2 {enhancements} + 120/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} + 100 {empower healing} = 212.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 212.5/100 = 3.125

It's been moderately nerfed in this case. However, note that such a value can only be achieved at level 25 on a cleric, due to the availability of devotion 120 items. Let's see what happens to this guy at levels 15 and 20:

Current spellpower at level 15: 80/2 {enhancements} + 72/2 {item} + 12/2 {implement} + 100 {empower healing} = 182
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 182/100 = 2.82

Current spellpower at level 20: 80/2 {enhancements} + 90/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} + 100 {empower healing} = 192.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 192.5/100 = 2.925

Still worse, right? I will abstain from showing the maths for level 15 and 20 characters using non-thaumaturgy two-handed weapons (they'll obviously be even worse off).

Current spellpower at level 25: 80/2 {enhancements} + 120/2 {item} + 100 {empower healing} = 200
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 200/100 = 3.0

Which is still strictly worse than what a level 15 could do in u13.
---

Case in point 6: 20 Cleric/5 epic, Radiant Servant II, using empower healing, wearing the best static items available, running the best possible clickies and taking the full enhancement line.

Previous multiplier: (1.0 {base} + 0.4 {enhancements} + 0.75 {clicky})* 1.75{empower healing} = 3.7625
Note that such a value is achieved by level 15 on a favored soul.

Current spellpower: 80/2 {enhancements} + 120/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} + 100 {empower healing} + 20/2 {clicky} = 217.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 217.5/100 = 3.175

It's nerfed by ]15% in this case.

Current spellpower at level 15: 80/2 {enhancements} + 72/2 {item} + 12/2 {implement} + 100 {empower healing} + 15/2 {clicky} = 189.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 189.5/100 = 2.895

Current spellpower at level 20: 80/2 {enhancements} + 90/2 {item} + 15/2 {implement} + 75 {empower healing} + 20/2 {clicky} = 202.5
Current multiplier: 1.0 {base} + 202.5/100 = 3.025

Again, you won't break even with the best super uber bestest gear in the game. Calculations for melee builds are, once more, superfluous (I've already estabilished heals will be worse even for those who regear and forget about melee).
---

TL;DR version:

* Before level 25: Your heals will be worse, gear not withstanding, UNLESS you are a favored soul without empower healing and wielding a ML:20 caster stick, in which case you pretty much break even.

* At level 25: You can only improve on your u13 numbers if you didn't have empower healing.

* If you wield two-handers, your heals are worse than before, even if you have a +120 devotion item (unless you don't have empower heal and do not use clickies) - Again, I have yet to see one of those.

If you're wearing gauntlets of eternity, you should fit on case 5, level 15 version: 50% boost before the update, +72 post update

If you're saying your heal has actually improved on your cleric, please specify gear/feat/enhancement layout pre u14 and post u14, and numbers to back it up.

Now, the question is: How can anyone say that this wasn't a nerf? Those who invested the most on improving heals all cast a worse heal than before!

[DeafeningWhisper]

Which brings up the point that we never used to have destinies before, we never used to have Healing Spring, Endless Faith, or Healing Power. You people are quibbling over a couple dozen spellpower that simply isn't that important. Most every cleric that I have ever grouped with overheals, and does so remorselessly. My ranger's healing power has effectively doubled since the expansion was released, and we now have druids. Healing has not been nerfed.

This is the real problem, myopic vision, there are levels 1-19 you know... No destinies there and clerics still need to heal the party, also even the devs have come out to say they nerfed Heal and Heal, Mass so unless you know better I think you should just gently remove that foot from your mouth before you get athlete's tongue.

All that is happening in this thread is that we have some people who are having a hard time adjusting to changes in game mechanics. No, you can't simply equip a high powered potency item and be the ultimate. Potency is actually pretty pathetic nowadays... get used to it

Wild guess here, you have no active divines, never healed a raid but feel entitled to tell us how we should play?

[Raithe]

Now, the question is: How can anyone say that this wasn't a nerf?

Because we now have physical resistance, AC that actually works to reduce damage, and have more classes (sources) that provide healing.

If you want to argue that certain classes at certain levels are now less effective at healing, I won't contradict that. Changes in game mechanics usually involve some ebb with the flow.

My point was that, overall, healing has not been nerfed. If you feel your cleric has, you might continue on to 25 and see how it looks from there. I have a hard time believing that clerics with destinies and twists are in worse shape than whatever you can compare it with from pre-update. Most of my characters have nearly doubled in power... and the content didn't double back.

[Ranncore]

and um, a high powered potency item, like Twilight, is actually better than ANY NAMED OR EPIC LOOT a cleric could get for devotion.

so how is potency useless now?

[Ranncore]

Because we now have physical resistance, AC that actually works to reduce damage, and have more classes (sources) that provide healing.

If you want to argue that certain classes at certain levels are now less effective at healing, I won't contradict that. Changes in game mechanics usually involve some ebb with the flow.

My point was that, overall, healing has not been nerfed. If you feel your cleric has, you might continue on to 25 and see how it looks from there. I have a hard time believing that clerics with destinies and twists are in worse shape than whatever you can compare it with from pre-update. Most of my characters have nearly doubled in power... and the content didn't double back.

Did you even bother to read the post? Just go to the TL;DR version.

[Raithe]

Did you even bother to read the post?

Yes, I read it. You were comparing one particular spell at discrete level intervals and you did actually show that the multiplier is lower now. On that one particular spell.

That doesn't show that a class with dozens of spells (and several healing spells) has been nerfed.

You should note that your calculations do have errors though. In one case you had empower healing at 100 spellpower and then next line (but higher level) had it at 75. My cleric has been TR'd to lowbie status and it'll be a while before I get him to the point that I can compare in an actual gameplay setting.

I do know that my bard seems to have been mostly unaffected by changes in spellpower (if anything a small boost), but the fact that he now has 35 songs (compared with 18) and can convert those to 220+ spellpoints each, means he can do twice the healing over a long quest, per shrine.

[Ranncore]

Yes, I read it. You were comparing one particular spell at discrete level intervals and you did actually show that the multiplier is lower now. On that one particular spell.

That doesn't show that a class with dozens of spells (and several healing spells) has been nerfed.

You should note that your calculations do have errors though. In one case you had empower healing at 100 spellpower and then next line (but higher level) had it at 75. My cleric has been TR'd to lowbie status and it'll be a while before I get him to the point that I can compare in an actual gameplay setting.

I do know that my bard seems to have been mostly unaffected by changes in spellpower (if anything a small boost), but the fact that he now has 35 songs (compared with 18) and can convert those to 220+ spellpoints each, means he can do twice the healing over a long quest, per shrine.

Which means that only clerics and favored souls were nerfed - not classes that depend only on cures.
Anything besides Heal is just an increment counter for Blood and Radiance. Any healer who's been in a raid with a tank knows this. The real healing is done with Heal. Go figure. They nerfed my best spell.

And if you had read the calculations, you would know they weren't mine - I quoted Darkfort at the very beginning. Thanks for trying, tho. You should read them.

[DoctorWhofan]

I hope turbine realizes what a horrible mistake forced specialization would be. They have always stated, and I agree, that build flexibility has been a core strength of DDO. The day that raid and endgame healing demands REQUIRE specialization in healing to the exclusion / degradation of other abilities, is the day that many many people stop playing divines.

This is because raid leaders will naturally insist on "heal-spec" divines. Today, you can reasonably spec for healing while focusing on another ability (melee or offensive casting). But if forced to choose between being a healbot, or being excluded from groups, I will just run with friends, or will play another class. Sure, the fraction of today's divines that don't mind healing to the exclusion of everything else will be just fine -- but those will be the ONLY healers you have left in the game.

Why is that? WHile my Generalist (healing/offensive casting) isn't as efficant as she was before U14 at killing, she can still kill. The PrEs are only going force you to pick and yeah, melee is going to pay for it, especially in PuGs. THe offensive and healing overlap so you will see some doing both, as I have for years as a generalist.

What is very sad is the fact alot of divines got away from the healing part because they became uber offenisive casters, and with teh FvS pretty good meleeists too. I have been in too many PuGs where the cleric cannot heal. Or the FvS refuses to heal. Healing is a VERY BIG PART of being a divine caster. Outside rangers, all touch on it is some way. But none as good as a cleric. In this game, they Get more spells than anyone because they get all the healing spells FOR FREE. No choice. Alot of people saw that as a crutch. It isn't.

Alot of people use gear as a crutch, too. Which is half the problem with this nerf. I never stressed out about the gear, nor do I go out of my way to get it for the most part, unless it is pretty easily attainable FOR ALL. So Stat items, False Life items, Minos Legen (or the Nightforge Gorget) etc. Never hunted down any Dragontouched, Lorrik's or whatever. I carried a shield and a potency mace that worked on both healing and offensive casting. Took RS, SPell pen feat, Maximise and Empower heal. Didn't gimp my CHA and have a decent UMD. I wanted to be prepared for anything.

BUt I PuG...alot. I KNOW for a fact, that when a group asks for a cleric, they want a HEALER. if you think otherwise, you are deluding yourselves. cleric = healer in the minds of most people. I learned not to be selfish. I learned that it was about the group and sometimes I am not going to get the kill count. If they wanted a healer, I was going to heal the best way I could.

So, soon, you all will have to choose. I had to sacrifice my killing ability a bit so I could heal better than most. You will have to make the choice. For melee clerics, that may be the fact you will have a difficult time getting into a raid group. For offenisive clerics, perhaps toning down your uber killing and standing back and HEALING once in a while.

People, we can't have it all. It isn't fair to the other classes out there. Look at Trapmonkey Rogues...out of a job. THey don't really have a choice as a rogue. Mine has sat at level13 for 2 years because of that. Clerics, it may be as sharp of a divide too. I may lose alot of my killing ability.

As for clerics = healers, that's pigeon holing. Yup. Totally agree with that. However, if it wasn't for the people who played clerics and sat in the back of the group and healed, many people would not be still playing this game. Nor would they be at cap.

I would recommend finding out the new PrEs are and how it will affect you. Then make a choice what you want to be as a Cleric/ FvS. Change is coming. And honestly, needed. We were overpowered for years. Now with this obession with gearage and clickies any minor tweaking ends up looking like the end of the world. Just play the game people. FInd what works for you and play. Rangers went through this, Rogues did too. Now it's our turn.

As for knowing how the other side feels, I have a melee FvS. Guess what? He is not a great healer. He wasn't a great healer before U14, because of the gear. Guess what? Oh well. I never join a group as the healer, and I stated to the leader before accepting any invite. That's responiblity. However, I play that character the way it was designed to play, and I sacrificed my WIS for spell points and a STR. After U15 he will probably be a horrid healer. It will probably take a long time for him to level. I choose that when I rolled him up. I will continue to stick by that choice until he is non-functional.

SO again. You choice. I am tired of people arguing this Heal nerf. They should be more concerned about the WF healer's friend and the light spell nerf.

[ShadowFlash]

...snip...

I haven't agreed with you one bit during U14, yet I can't help liking this post. You readily admit what we are complaining about, yet hold to your position of acceptance. nice post I'd +1 ya, but outa daily rep. I agree on one major thing in your post..It's time to wait. My cleric will see zero play time until changes are made, or it's obvious his playstyle has been permently diminished...yes, it's a melee cleric...with 2 monk (not-centered) on top of it. There's just way to many things stacked against him right now IMO (the only opinion that counts for my particular toon) to bother playing him. Luckily, I have a toon that came out U14 decently enough...it's no divine of course, but I'll find my enjoyment there for now.

ShadowFlash