Why do SOME zergers intentionally hijack quests?

[LazarusPossum]

A little background, now that I've counted to ten at least three times. /Rant on:

I just logged on about an hour before, and planned to take my first run through House of Rusted Blades. Before doing this/setting up an LFM, I figured I'd check to see if there was already one up.
Yes, one that states "First time, need guide and trapper." I fit the criteria, as I am a rogue and have unlocked the maps.
So I send a tell. "Is this a zerg run or do you plan on doing optionals?"
"Optionals, it's my first run" was the reply.

Fast forward to the group getting together. Some have maps unlocked, but some don't, so they make their way through the Forest/Underdark to the portal. Already some are dying, and zerger is urging them to "just run to it".
Okay, this is already looking bad.

After I catch up and help the new ones to defeat the red-named that spawn right at the Underdark entrance, we go into the cave. I immediately say in party chat, "If you want to get Liberator on the way, I can bluff/pull the slavers and we can take them down before freeing the slaves." Party leader agrees to that.
Too late, the zerger is already riling up the mobs, leaving them in his wake for us to deal with. To paraphrase, "Just run to/through it" he says. My guess is he means the Sschindylrin portal.

For the first timers' sake, I figured that some would like to have a little look around as they press on. So I again put up a party tell, "Just to be clear on this, is this going to be a zerg run, or are we going to do optionals and stuff?"
No reply; just more deaths, including my own. Luckily, I'm at the portal shrine already, but surrounded by hostile mobs so I jump into the Sschin portal.

Once past the bridge, everyone starts heading east.
"It's west", I type into party chat.
"No, it's here" someone types back.
"Um, my map and wiki both show it to be on the west side. I thought I signed up for House of Rusted Blades?"
"So did I," someone else replies.
So everyone heads west. I can see there's not going to be much cooperation, so I simply go into sneak mode and go to the entrance and wait. More deaths, but everyone makes it except for the party leader, who DC's after saying, "Have to go, son just woke up."
At this point, I don't blame him.

Suffice it to say, the quest was over in record time, with repeated deaths including the cleric, who was becoming understandably testy, and only one set of weapons treated with ichor.

Before writing this post, and before counting to ten at least three times, I REALLY wanted to send this guy a tell, saying "What in the *multiple bleeps* hell is wrong with you? Didn't you read the LFM?" However, I realized that this would wind up in futility. I think it would have been smarter to dip out once we hit the Forest, once I had a preconception of how things would turn out.

OK, now to the main point of the post. Does anyone have any idea WHY people do this?
I mean, the LFM is clear. First-time, guide, trapper. In no way does it mention zerg, dps, or byoh, so apparently, you've hijacked the quest. WHY?

Reasons I can think of:

"I don't have time to wait for slowpokes. I have waggro/little free time/little patience and have to get this done quickly."
Okay. So why join a first-time run? Waggro I can understand, but it's still not a legitimate reason for spoiling a good time for others. We're all better off and not ticked off at you if you'd put up your own zerg-run lfm. I'm sure you'd find helpers in record time, because they're waiting for an LFM just as you were.
Besides, the content is going to be around for a while, so WHY does it have to be done so quickly?
If it's matter of keeping up with your friends, I have a news flash for you. They're not your friends. Friends help friends, they don't leave them behind. Hell, even acquaintances help acqaintances if it's for a common goal.

"I realize I can't do this myself, so I need cannon fodder to prevent my aggro/imminent death while I zerg ahead."
No. Just no. This is a selfish way of playing, and what I and many others think of you leads me to the third and ultimate possibility:

"I'm 12 years old/I'm an (insert your most dastardly expletive here)."
This is pretty much the only legitimate conclusion I can come to, and the least exlicable. Sort of like the Annoying Childhood Friend meme come to life.

Challenge me, please. Give me a legitimate reason to think it's not reason #3, and an acceptable behavior.
Before anyone reminds me of the Tale of the Scorpion and the Frog, remember...we're neither scorpions nor frogs.

Oh, and.../Rant off.

EDIT: Just for the record, I have encountered a high rate of PUGs with young people playing on older member's accounts. The 12-year old reference is definitely a possibility. I'm not calling all zergers 12-year-olds, only the ones who act like 12-year-olds.

[Dreamshifter]

"I'm 12 years old/I'm an (insert your most dastardly expletive here)."
This is pretty much the only legitimate conclusion I can come to, and the least exlicable. Sort of like the Annoying Childhood Friend meme come to life.

I think that covers 90% of such cases. People are jerks.

Challenge me, please. Give me a legitimate reason to think it's not reason #3, and an acceptable behavior.
Before anyone reminds me of the Tale of the Scorpion and the Frog, remember...we're neither scorpions nor frogs.

Personally, I don't think it would be acceptable behavior, so I don't see any reason it would be.

As for the tale part, no, we are humans. Which makes us infinitely worse, because we choose to be jerks, instead of it being our nature...

[9Crows]

reason #4 ime inconsiderate and narscisistic .... ive seen this a bit where people follow the more dominate personality in a group because he exudes confidence...many times that confidence is based on ignorance....but people asume since he giving directions he must know what hes doing .... thus the hijack .. a strong leader can easily prevent this from happening. ive seen many failed hijack attempts when the lead steps up

[LazarusPossum]

reason #4 ime inconsiderate and narscisistic .... ive seen this a bit where people follow the more dominate personality in a group because he exudes confidence...many times that confidence is based on ignorance....but people asume since he giving directions he must know what hes doing .... thus the hijack .. a strong leader can easily prevent this from happening. ive seen many failed hijack attempts when the lead steps up

Yeah, I'm thinking of quotes for my own LFMs. Like..."Upon zerging, recall, boot zerger, reform," so everyone knows the score beforehand.

[wax_on_wax_off]

"Doing optionals" and "first timer" aren't exclusive to zerging in my mind. Zerging is the normal way of doing a quest and if I joined a first timers group and volunteered myself as someone who knew the quest I'd assume I was showing them how to zerg it and pick up the worthwhile optional xp (I like optionals, they're often good xp and zergers like them too).

Zerging = normal way of doing a quest (to me). If "no-zerging" or "flower sniffing" is on the LFM then I understand that we won't be running a quest in the normal way but otherwise I'll just get on and get the quest done in the most efficient and fun way (to me). I realise it might not be fun for other people if I run off and kill everything in the quest but I don't see why I should not have fun and not play to my full potential unless it's specifically specified in the LFM.

I know that people have different capabilities due to knowledge/skill/gear/build so often volunteer to go off and pick up an optional by myself or something similar, this always seems like a good idea to me.

I like grouping with people, this is an MMO, not a single player gamer and I don't mind who contributes more or less to a quest completion in a general sense (though I try to learn or teach as appropriate).

This guy was probably a jerk but maybe there was just a break down of communication in the party, at the end of the day unless the party leader stepped up and said that it's a non-zerging/stick together run then it's the party leaders fault for the outcome.

[LazarusPossum]

"Doing optionals" and "first timer" aren't exclusive to zerging in my mind. Zerging is the normal way of doing a quest and if I joined a first timers group and volunteered myself as someone who knew the quest I'd assume I was showing them how to zerg it and pick up the worthwhile optional xp (I like optionals, they're often good xp and zergers like them too).

I'm only half in agreement to this.

Zerging isn't the "normal" way to do a quest, it is one of MANY myriad ways - although it might be the way most young people who grew up on the latest generation of video gaming do it.

I remember it taking days...yes, DAYS to get through a quest when I played PnP as a teen. And the D&D Giants/Slavers/Drow/Lolth campaign series that inspired much of the MotU content? Don't ask how long that took. Btw, Pong was the best and only home game you could get at the time, though Atari and Intellivision came along soon after.

This is more of a "which side of the coin" issue, in which everyone SHOULD state the game tactic, whether it be zerg or non-zerg, and hijacking should not be tolerated. Just because the leader might not be a strong one doesn't mean it's ok to be a tool.

[pseudomasochist]

Sadly, about the only thing you can do is remember the guy and avoid him in the future.

People who join parties they're not supposed to and then try to impose their play style on others make the game less fun for for all involved. There's no justification for behaving that way, regardless of the perpetrator's circumstances. Thankfully their numbers are relatively small so, while it's frustrating, the best thing to do is let it go and move on I think. The good party mates still outnumber the lousy ones by a large margin.

[BitkaCK2]

"Zerging is normal for me"

Therein lies the rub. It's not the normal for me, or many people. For many people it is the normal. The issue then becomes communication. Was there a failure to communicate or did someone say screw you I do it my way? In the OP's case it sounds like the latter. The whole 'ass-u-me' thing has been done before so if there's doubt spell it out. Of course the OP did by asking if it was zerg and the doodah did it anyway which in my book is durn close to harassment or griefing so best to be done is /squelch and move on.

However, please don't assume your normal is my normal.

my2c,
bitkaCK2

[Inferno346]

I don't see anything in the op about a quest being hijacked-- only that someone ran through the explorer zone. Regardless of whether zerging quests is the "norm" or should be specified, zerging/invis'ing explorer zones is definitely the norm, even in training/first timer runs. Now, this might not be the case in MotU (as a premium I wouldn't know), but habits are habits, so it is eminently excusable.

After that you say the quest was done "in record time", and I'm not sure whether that's sarcasm, and it actually was slow, or implies your vehement hatred of speed and the feeling that you got cheated because you didn't get to experience the quest at a leisurely pace.

To my knowledge, I've never hijacked a pug. Most of my guildies tend to zerg but a few don't, and I've certainly hijacked them before I realized that they don't like to zerg. The reason zergers like to group, beyond anything as esoteric as camaraderie, is that a decent group can generally complete quests faster than a sole zerger by splitting up. We don't join groups to mess them up for other people or to show other people how awesome we are. We join them because we genuinely think the other party members are zergers, and sometimes this assumption is wrong.

[Cyndrome]

I cannot think of any self-respecting zerger that would join an LFM that asks for a guide.

[DeafeningWhisper]

I had that happen to me yesterday, the leader zerged the same quest after we talked amongst the group if we where doing the optionals and we agreed, had he said "no ops, fast run" we would have had no problems with it but he said nothing. Apparently for him "House of Rusted Blades: hard" means: zerging the quest, expect no buffs from me, BYOH, will leave anyone not fast enough behind to die (how we lost our first cleric) and will whine if you don't give me the item I want or refuse to sell it for a fraction of it's real worth.

Worst he proceeded to solo The Portal Opens when the cleric said he wasn't flagged rather then run it again after we had done House of Death Undone with the new cleric.

We took 4 mins or so to do Rusted, but he couldn't bother to do it again since he was a PM and could self heal so he just proceeded to Portal. At that point we dropped group and formed our own, we all flagged for the raid since the new guys knew demonweb and were kind enough to guide us through it, it was a nice change of pace after those crappy runs

[ZeebaNeighba]

If the LFM says "first time", well, what do you think, huh?

For me it just means that I need a guide, and if someone can lead it better I'll let them. People should be more careful before they trust me for anything, since I might not know if there's something special in that quest. It doesn't exactly mean I need to take it slow and figure it out.

[wax_on_wax_off]

You're hijacking a party when you aren't in cooperation with its leader.

If you see the listing "first timer" or some such, expect to "dumb down" your playstyle.

I explained that in my first post in this thread, "fire timer" doesn't mean "I'm a flower sniffing, no zerg player", it just means someone who is new to the quest. I post first timer in my LFM if I'm new to a quest, doesn't mean I want to break every barrel along the way (unless they are easily accessible and the base xp of the quest is high enough to warrant it).

If you don't want someone to play how they usually play then specify it in the LFM. Don't be vague. Type "no-zerg". That is effective communication and leaves no room for misinterpreting the type of LFM it is.

In the OPs story I didn't see any indication that it was ever specified by the leader that it was specifically a no-zerg run, all I saw was that he was new to the quest and needed someone to show him the way.

[Ancient]

You're hijacking a party when you aren't in cooperation with its leader.

If you see the listing "first timer" or some such, expect to "dumb down" your playstyle.

If you're showing me how to do the quest, please show me how to zerg it. That is how I play, that is whats fun for me, and if they took the flavor text out... it might be several releases before I notice.

Different people enjoy the game different ways.

[DeafeningWhisper]

Actually what I wanted to illustrate with what I wrote above is that no matter what the leader wants or the party wants there needs to be enough communication so no one gets stuck in a party they don't want to be part of.

For some zerging is the standard way to do a quest, for others getting the maximum out of the storyline is half the fun and finally some just want the exp/loot and will follow whatever the party or leader decides.

[vegabond1969]

In the OPs story I didn't see any indication that it was ever specified by the leader that it was specifically a no-zerg run, all I saw was that he was new to the quest and needed someone to show him the way.

Seems you missed some of the story then.

I just logged on about an hour before, and planned to take my first run through House of Rusted Blades. Before doing this/setting up an LFM, I figured I'd check to see if there was already one up.
Yes, one that states "First time, need guide and trapper." I fit the criteria, as I am a rogue and have unlocked the maps.
So I send a tell. "Is this a zerg run or do you plan on doing optionals?"
"Optionals, it's my first run" was the reply.

The question was clearly asked and responded to. Zerging specificlly mentioned and replied to as well. For people to assume that everyone Zergs is just a sign of how badly this game is played now. It isn't about the enjoyment of the game, but how fast one can get to the end level and tr for another go. These are the reasons why my wife and I usually 2 man everything and disregard general chat and lfms.

[Saravis]

I explained that in my first post in this thread, "fire timer" doesn't mean "I'm a flower sniffing, no zerg player", it just means someone who is new to the quest. I post first timer in my LFM if I'm new to a quest, doesn't mean I want to break every barrel along the way (unless they are easily accessible and the base xp of the quest is high enough to warrant it).

If you dislike how the quest is being run by the party leader, then leave and run it your own way. Its inconsiderate to join someone else's PUG and then proceed to be uncooperative with the party leader.
Additionally, if the party says "first timer" that means they don't know how to do the quest, how does running off on your own help them any, huh?

If you want to "solo" zerg a quest don't bother joining a newbie run.
Either just solo the quest or, if you want to "wax" your epeen, start your own LFM.
with text such as "Lets Zerg!" or "Gawk at my awesomeness!"

If you're showing me how to do the quest, please show me how to zerg it. That is how I play, that is whats fun for me, and if they took the flavor text out... it might be several releases before I notice.

Different people enjoy the game different ways.

Great, if you're the party leader and that's how you want to do it, go for it.
Don't make the assumption thats how other party leaders want to.

[Cyndrome]

The question was clearly asked and responded to. Zerging specificlly mentioned and replied to as well. For people to assume that everyone Zergs is just a sign of how badly this game is played now. It isn't about the enjoyment of the game, but how fast one can get to the end level and tr for another go. These are the reasons why my wife and I usually 2 man everything and disregard general chat and lfms.

The question was asked in tells= there was no communications mentioned in the party other than OP's request for clarification when the party was full that received no reply. If OP wanted to lead and assume the responsibility of guide he should have asked for the star when he joined.

[countfitz]

I explained that in my first post in this thread, "fire timer" doesn't mean "I'm a flower sniffing, no zerg player", it just means someone who is new to the quest. I post first timer in my LFM if I'm new to a quest, doesn't mean I want to break every barrel along the way (unless they are easily accessible and the base xp of the quest is high enough to warrant it).

If you don't want someone to play how they usually play then specify it in the LFM. Don't be vague. Type "no-zerg". That is effective communication and leaves no room for misinterpreting the type of LFM it is.

In the OPs story I didn't see any indication that it was ever specified by the leader that it was specifically a no-zerg run, all I saw was that he was new to the quest and needed someone to show him the way.

COMPLETELY DISAGREE. I believe that the assumption should always be that, when you post an LFM without specific instructions, you should assume you want to do the quest. Unless stated BYOH or Zerg, you should not go in with the assumption that you will all be zerging or BYOHing.

And ESPECIALLY if there is an LFM with "First Timer." First timer should mean you want to experience the new quest you just paid $80 for. You know, enjoy the game and all.

But you know what people who make assumptions are.

[phillymiket]

But WoWo if the LFM says "First time - need guide" what do you think that means?

Do they know the quest? no
Do they want to learn it? yes
Do they want to play catch up in the wake of your dungeon alert? probably not
Can they handle the above? who knows? I wouldn't count on it.

Just because it wasn't expressly stated "no zerging" you know they don't want you ahead of them like that.

You don't need to be psychic to read between the lines of "first time" and "need guide"

I rarely see "flower sniffing" or "no zerg" on LFMs.
It usually is implied with things like "need guide" "new to quest" etc.
If it is implied AND someone says something in chat (like the OP did) about doing optionals then you are just being obstinate by going forward with a no-optional plan or at least ask for clariity.

People often are embarrassed to be a "noob" and slow things down so they won't say anything when a clearly more experienced player is going faster then they wanted.
So they don't say anything and their fun is lessened.
Often I see vets kind of bully a new player/leader with a RL low will save.
If it doesn't matter to someone that they just bullied their way then whatever.
That's how some people roll.
I have a little voice in my head that will start chastising me if I do stuff like that.

Why join a party that says "first time" if you won't let them experience their first time?
(or maybe you zerg through new content - i always soak up the new quest and enjoy it)

Why join a party that says "need guide" if you don't want to be a guide?


If the LFM has no note at all then fair game. Zerg away until the leader says stop.
.