Why do SOME zergers intentionally hijack quests?

[phillymiket]

Communication is good, if you don't do it then don't complain when you don't get the outcome that you want.

states "First time, need guide and trapper."

if you don't like to zerg, say so ahead of times. Communication is key

states "First time, need guide and trapper."

Maybe I'm Sherlock Holmes but my Spidey Sense is telling me the leader doesn't want to zerg.

Perhaps I'm just incredibly clever (and handsome).
.

[Tscheuss]

My cleric sometimes joins a PUG 'looking for healer'. She's a lowbie, no res yet.
One or two party member start rushing ahead of the rest, and I say, 'Please let's not zerg.' They continue, they die ('cuz they outran trapper, too), and now are upset to wait 'til they get their stones carried to shrine for res.

Res, repeat.

[herzkos]

"Doing optionals" and "first timer" aren't exclusive to zerging in my mind. Zerging is the normal way of doing a quest and if I joined a first timers group and volunteered myself as someone who knew the quest I'd assume I was showing them how to zerg it and pick up the worthwhile optional xp (I like optionals, they're often good xp and zergers like them too).

Zerging = normal way of doing a quest (to me). If "no-zerging" or "flower sniffing" is on the LFM then I understand that we won't be running a quest in the normal way but otherwise I'll just get on and get the quest done in the most efficient and fun way (to me). I realise it might not be fun for other people if I run off and kill everything in the quest but I don't see why I should not have fun and not play to my full potential unless it's specifically specified in the LFM.

I know that people have different capabilities due to knowledge/skill/gear/build so often volunteer to go off and pick up an optional by myself or something similar, this always seems like a good idea to me.

I like grouping with people, this is an MMO, not a single player gamer and I don't mind who contributes more or less to a quest completion in a general sense (though I try to learn or teach as appropriate).

This guy was probably a jerk but maybe there was just a break down of communication in the party, at the end of the day unless the party leader stepped up and said that it's a non-zerging/stick together run then it's the party leaders fault for the outcome.

sorry WoWo ,
concur with the OP on this one. If it doesn't say zerg in the lfm it's not guaranteed to be a zerg.
best bet is to ask the pl upon joining or send a tell prior to the join request to find out his/her intentions.

To me, if no info on speed on lfm, it means it's up to negotiation or decision to be made once party is formed.
I wouldn't expect a first time/guide needed lfm to be a zerg at all. To me that screams, "I wanna experience
the full flavor of this quest" especially if it says optionals.

/edit, to answer the question the op posted:
some people just don't read and/or don't care about the party. best bet is to make a mental note of the character so you can group with
him or not depending on your mood/quest/plans.

[katz]

My cleric sometimes joins a PUG 'looking for healer'. She's a lowbie, no res yet.
One or two party member start rushing ahead of the rest, and I say, 'Please let's not zerg.' They continue, they die ('cuz they outran trapper, too), and now are upset to wait 'til they get their stones carried to shrine for res.

Res, repeat.

if too many repeats... then leave their stone. finish quest. THEN take stone to shrine so they can get their loot.
add name to special list. forget about them
continue to have fun with friends.

[Emili]

Sort of like YouTubing a quest for some help. It's almost always a Zerg run, a level 20 running through a level 5 quest lets say. 20 buffs, runs through all traps, no optionals, no commentary. Done in 5 minutes, learned nothing. People that don't play DDO and look to these for some type of understanding of the game, must have a strange view on DDO.

Which is why... first time I go alone or in small group with people I know. After I am comfortable I know everything about the new quest I really do not care anymore as long as I get the complete and my loot out of it... I will ask however, quick or slow? options or not? ...

Most often a quest is so much easier done alone rather than second guessin' what the others be doin' or are going to do.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

if too many repeats... then leave their stone. finish quest. THEN take stone to shrine so they can get their loot.
add name to special list. forget about them
continue to have fun with friends.

I often try to do that. But my poor eyesight... always mixing up a pool of lava with a shrine...

[LazarusPossum]

Well, I have to admit one of my biggest frustrations with the first few days of the expansion was not being able to find a non-zerging buddy to explore the quests for the first time or two to learn them.

My first time through Impossible Demands was a zerger showing me the "way it's done", which was to hang out in the first room while the priestess wandered, and only fight her once she came back (sucking some poor captives soul every time).
Only until I gained a level and some nice gear did I come back to it solo+hireling, and figure out that it was indeed possible to avoid the priestess initially, save all the captives, and defeat her at the end.

And so it went with Murder by Night, The Riddle, The Unquiet Graves, and The Lost Thread. Only when I came back to do them on my own did I figure out the correct way to progress as well as complete optionals.

Another thing I learned is that the developers must have had stealth tactics and wit in mind when they designed a few of these quests, but the "special" zergers still feel that brute force will overcome all obstacles.

[MindCake]

It takes a very small amount of common sense to figure out the pace the party leader is setting. But if one chooses the route of ignoring that pace with the excuse that if it isn't in the LFM I can't see it, the rest are left deciding if that person is lacking in common sense or just willfully hijacking everyone else's fun.

So, which is it?

Well said.

[Ancient]

Challenge me, please. Give me a legitimate reason to think it's not reason #3, and an acceptable behavior.

Blaming your audience for your communication failure may be an easy answer, but it will keep you in victim status since you can't control others. If you took a minute or two to understand what zerging is, then you would be better equipped to clearly state in your LFM/questions what you are and are not looking for. If a person is capable of clearing the quest by themselves... they aren't going to mind if you decide to recall and start over on your own... leading me to the next quote.

Well, I have to admit one of my biggest frustrations with the first few days of the expansion was not being able to find a non-zerging buddy to explore the quests for the first time or two to learn them.

The quests aren't that hard, solo them and post a LFM IP with whatever description you have of your play style. Calling people 12 year olds and venting isn't likely to encourage people to group with you. Taking control of the situation in a positive way and doing your thing is what has the best chance to find others who play the game like you do.

[doomboy]

well, i wouldn't say number 3, because i am 14 years old myself, and started playing back when i was 11 or 12, and i am not a jerk, unless provoked by other jerks, and then only to them. sometime's people are just plain ******* who really don't care about stuff. they don't like to wait around so they run ahead.

[EarlofPain]

In my experience the higher the level the more soloist zerg monsters join in on groups. Most won't even use a hire until they hit level 10 and stop when they pull thier green steel out of the bank. However around Vale suddenly they can't seem to solo those elite quests any more. So they join in on groups. They've done the runs dozens if not hundreds of times and expect you to keep up. There are several very respected players who have developed this style of DDO and most try and be like them. However it's hard for a non 20+ life player with years of top notch gear to do this.
A fantastic player joined in on a normal Monastary of the Scorpion run with a no zerg banner. In ten minutes he proved that he didn't need any of us to finish the run EXCEPT for the finally puzzle. He was not the group leader and was vocal in the fact that if we didn't hurry up he was going to drop group on the next run because we weren't even making 1000xp a minute.
The forums are full of posts about how this is the way to do things. 1000xp per minute or you are doing it wrong.
My thoughts after reading this thread is that non-zerg is not going to help in LFM posts. Instead I'll be putting up xp per minute hunters not wanted.

[LazarusPossum]

Blaming your audience for your communication failure may be an easy answer, but it will keep you in victim status since you can't control others. If you took a minute or two to understand what zerging is, then you would be better equipped to clearly state in your LFM/questions what you are and are not looking for. If a person is capable of clearing the quest by themselves... they aren't going to mind if you decide to recall and start over on your own... leading me to the next quote.


The quests aren't that hard, solo them and post a LFM IP with whatever description you have of your play style. Calling people 12 year olds and venting isn't likely to encourage people to group with you. Taking control of the situation in a positive way and doing your thing is what has the best chance to find others who play the game like you do.

I'm wondering if you simply skimmed over the material or actually read it?

[Elaril]

I zerg the everloving **** out of every quest i'm in, where it's appropriate. But I'm usually low manning quests with similar minded people. That being said, if I saw a "first timer" lfm and I consciously chose to join it, you can bet I would let the rest of the party set the pace. Zerging one of those lfms is just plain inconsiderate to everyone else in the group in my opinion, and the zerging is the default pug setting argument is just plain ridiculous.

Why not, once youve joined a group like that, just go with it. You might have some fun and meet some good folks along the way. Or, you can be a ****, ruin everyone else's night and, rightfully, earn your way onto multiple squelch lists.

[Ancient]

I'm wondering if you simply skimmed over the material or actually read it?

There is that communication thing again...

I read it several times on different days.

No, that doesn't count as zerging your post

[SardaofChaos]

Nice story.

Communication is good, if you don't do it then don't complain when you don't get the outcome that you want. I still haven't seen any evidence that the party leader told the zerger to not zerg, just a lot of static that could have been interpreted one way or another in the heat of the moment. It's really easy to use 20-20 hindsight vision and tell people how they should have acted but at the time the zerger may not have been reading party chat (due to handling mobs) and not have had any specific information before hand that it was a specific no-zerg run.

As I've tried to establish, assuming people won't zerg if you post an LFM that doesn't say "no-zerg" is a quick way to frustration and forum drama threads. We've got a really good community in general playing DDO and people don't go out to ruin others day so if you say what you want (as party leader) they'll 99 times out of 100 do what you want or join another group.

Please, just communicate.

It has been pointed out time and again that zerging is not in fact the default way to do a quest. When a run is put up that says "first time, need guide", this is even more true. A quite large amount of people like to actually check out the quest their first time, read the notes, listen to the DM. If you don't, then before joining one ask the leader what their intentions are.
This applies to every single LFM, by the way. As I already said, if you are not 100% sure that the way you intend to do the quest is the same way the party leader intends to do it, ask. If you are resting the onus of communication solely on the party leader, then I suggest you also deactivate your microphone and change all your chat window outgoings to general, since you obviously don't intend to say anything.

[shajib]

I'm only half in agreement to this.

Zerging isn't the "normal" way to do a quest, it is one of MANY myriad ways - although it might be the way most young people who grew up on the latest generation of video gaming do it.

I remember it taking days...yes, DAYS to get through a quest when I played PnP as a teen. And the D&D Giants/Slavers/Drow/Lolth campaign series that inspired much of the MotU content? Don't ask how long that took. Btw, Pong was the best and only home game you could get at the time, though Atari and Intellivision came along soon after.

This is more of a "which side of the coin" issue, in which everyone SHOULD state the game tactic, whether it be zerg or non-zerg, and hijacking should not be tolerated. Just because the leader might not be a strong one doesn't mean it's ok to be a tool.

If you want to take days to complete a simple quest, then write it down in the lfm so that "rationale" people like yourself can join it.

[shajib]

Well, I have to admit one of my biggest frustrations with the first few days of the expansion was not being able to find a non-zerging buddy to explore the quests for the first time or two to learn them.

My first time through Impossible Demands was a zerger showing me the "way it's done", which was to hang out in the first room while the priestess wandered, and only fight her once she came back (sucking some poor captives soul every time).
Only until I gained a level and some nice gear did I come back to it solo+hireling, and figure out that it was indeed possible to avoid the priestess initially, save all the captives, and defeat her at the end.

And so it went with Murder by Night, The Riddle, The Unquiet Graves, and The Lost Thread. Only when I came back to do them on my own did I figure out the correct way to progress as well as complete optionals.

Another thing I learned is that the developers must have had stealth tactics and wit in mind when they designed a few of these quests, but the "special" zergers still feel that brute force will overcome all obstacles.

They are zerging because they count experience by time, instead of trying to figure out something that has already been figured out.

[Viisari]

It has been pointed out time and again that zerging is not in fact the default way to do a quest.

I don't know even a single player who has played for a year or more and doesn't zerg. I'd say it's pretty much the default way of doing things. New players don't zerg because everything is new to them and they're not able even if they wanted to.

If I join an LFM someone will have to specifically tell me to not zerg or the content has to be difficult/dangerous enough to prevent me from doing that. It's just the way me and many others do things, and to be honest I don't even remember the last time I was told not to do it.

Thelanis has one of the oldest playerbases though, maybe it has something to do with that.

[shajib]

Yeah, I'm thinking of quotes for my own LFMs. Like..."Upon zerging, recall, boot zerger, reform," so everyone knows the score beforehand.

Also add these to your lfm, so people will be clear of your intentions- "i want to take a few days to finish a quest,"
"pnp players who likes to take a few days to complete a quest only."

[phillymiket]

If you want to take days to complete a simple quest, then write it down in the lfm so that "rationale" people like yourself can join it.

Hyperbole of "days to complete" aside the LFM said "First time - Need guide".

Sorry, but you have to be completely daft to not realize the leader doesn't want a zerger.

New players don't zerg because everything is new to them and they're not able even if they wanted to.

Exactly.

The LFM said it was their first time and the zerger behaved in a way that a reasonable person would have to consider may cause strife or death for said new person's party

Why on Earth would you join someone else's party and try to get them to do something that it is very likely they are not able to do?

Start your own party!

If I join an LFM someone will have to specifically tell me to not zerg

Even if you know or strongly suspect the leader doesn't want zerging?

So you would make someone have to go through the awkwardness of telling you to stop when you already know they would rather you didn't?

If the leader just decides they will deal with it in silence then that's ok?


Listen.

I have no problem with zerging.

It's my preferred method of doing quests.

It's why I solo a lot until higher levels; I can move fast.

If I join a LFM that has no notes I may zerg from the start.

However, if a LFM says something that clues you in that it's newer players/non-zerger then I don't join.
If I join a party and it becomes clear that some players are slow and unskilled then I won't zerg.
If the leader is clearly not zerging then I don't zerg.

It has nothing to do with which play style is better or more "normal" for a pug.

It is about simple, basic respect and common courtesy.

Some people have it.

Some people don't.
.