Devs - once the Ocean Stance bug is fixed . . .

[orakio]

That post is not a monk - it shows a 12 ftr/ with monk splash, and a couple very specific dark/earth paths that in no way do a single thing for the class as a whole, or anyone else in light armor who is not a ftr/darkmonk/earth stance build.

In other words - completely meaningless for the argument in question.

The post is a 12monk/6fighter/2 whatever AND includes the PRR values for a 20 monk directly below it.

Try again.

The point that you are missing is that BECAUSE those options are there for monks, and increased inherent defenses would cause them to exceed the mitigation that full blown non-evasion tank builds get which causes a whole seperate sort of balance issues. Any increases to monk as a baseline would likely have to come with tradeoffs to their top end mitigation as it is extremely competetive with fighter tanks and exceeding that of paladin tanks.

[orakio]

I wasn't really making a suggestion, just making a point that PRR and Dodge are not equivalent and given a choice for my cloth armor types I consider PRR to be vastly superior.

I'm not asking for or suggesting a nerf to PRR, just making a point.

I read you article and I agree with you that a TANK build monk can achieve close enough damage mitication to be competitive with a TANK build FIGHTER.

My problem with dodge is not for a tank, but rather for your general purpose DPS/mitigation monk where Dodge is not very effective.

Your average dps in heavy armor is comparing ~16.4% mitigation from PRR versus 2-6% inherent dodge that monk based cloth wearing builds have. With a typical heavy armor dodge cap maxing at 7% (and more likely being 1-3%) the monk will need 10.6%(in the event of 1% MDB cap on the heavy armor)-21% mitigation from either stance or item selection to exceed it. Dodge is harder to get than PRR but you can utilize 1/2 of your stances to immediatley provide that mitigation difference(water or earth), or if you use ninjaspy I PrE(your primary dps PrE anyway) you can exceed it with no additional investment at all.

The problem is the inherent versaitility of the monk class creates a ton of situation that are possible, but you don't need anywhere close to unreasonable investments in regards to feats/enhancements/gear to have more than acceptable mitigation compared to heavy armor.

And EVEN discounting that I can tell you many people would love the option to trade heavy armor proficiency on some of their dps classes for the imp evasion class feature. The discussion of mitigation is so much more complex than "cloth doesn't give PRR and heavy armor does".

[TPICKRELL]

Your average dps in heavy armor is comparing ~16.4% mitigation from PRR versus 2-6% inherent dodge that monk based cloth wearing builds have. With a typical heavy armor dodge cap maxing at 7% (and more likely being 1-3%) the monk will need 10.6%(in the event of 1% MDB cap on the heavy armor)-21% mitigation from either stance or item selection to exceed it. Dodge is harder to get than PRR but you can utilize 1/2 of your stances to immediatley provide that mitigation difference(water or earth), or if you use ninjaspy I PrE(your primary dps PrE anyway) you can exceed it with no additional investment at all.

The problem is the inherent versaitility of the monk class creates a ton of situation that are possible, but you don't need anywhere close to unreasonable investments in regards to feats/enhancements/gear to have more than acceptable mitigation compared to heavy armor.

And EVEN discounting that I can tell you many people would love the option to trade heavy armor proficiency on some of their dps classes for the imp evasion class feature. The discussion of mitigation is so much more complex than "cloth doesn't give PRR and heavy armor does".

I guess it hinges on what you consider to be reasonable or unreasonable investments.

Heavy Armor inherently gives a fighter aprox (6+BAB) 26 PRR which is about 14% damage mitigation. The armor still has all of its effects to contribute to the gear set.

In order to get to 14% mitigation from equipment my monks would have to use 4+4+3+3 = 4 item slots. It takes 3 very hard to fill item slots dodge 4+3+3 to get dodge to be equivalent to the incorporal effect of a ghostly item. In my eyes that's way out of balance.

I have no problem with PRR, I have no problem with armor wearers getting decent damage mitigation. They need it and should have had it all along.

My point is that Dodge needs to be adjusted so that it is a reasonable mitigation route while still fitting into a reasonable gear set and feat allocation.

[Ape_Man]

As soon as I find a way to get above 25% dodge without gimping a toon I might care more that there's a limit, but honestly the "gimp factor" serves as enough of a soft limit that we really should need one.

if you want to blow all your Twists and multiple gear slots on dodge where is the harm? There's a pretty big DPS loss that's the trade-off.

[orakio]

I guess it hinges on what you consider to be reasonable or unreasonable investments.

Heavy Armor inherently gives a fighter aprox (6+BAB) 26 PRR which is about 14% damage mitigation. The armor still has all of its effects to contribute to the gear set.

In order to get to 14% mitigation from equipment my monks would have to use 4+4+3+3 = 4 item slots. It takes 3 very hard to fill item slots dodge 4+3+3 to get dodge to be equivalent to the incorporal effect of a ghostly item. In my eyes that's way out of balance.

I have no problem with PRR, I have no problem with armor wearers getting decent damage mitigation. They need it and should have had it all along.

My point is that Dodge needs to be adjusted so that it is a reasonable mitigation route while still fitting into a reasonable gear set and feat allocation.

You need 2 item slots versus their 1. 6% inherent dodge so 2 4% items would cover you. Or 1 4% item and dodge feat for dark path. Or 1 4% item and any number of the ED's abilities that give 3% dodge.

Could SOME things use a review of dodge provided... absolutely. Chattering ring for example has lost almost all of its use as an item imo. But any increases to dodge value don't need to be from increased dodge cap, or as inherent parts of the monk class, they should be analyzed on items and feats... things that are accessible to everyone.

The other thing is, believe it or not, full 20 monks have more AC before dex than heavy armor non-shield builds still assuming fairly reasonable initial stats and using new items.

14base wisdom+8item+2tome+2 shipbuff+2enhancement(4 with capstone) = 28 wis for +9 wis bonus to AC.
+9 armor item, +9wis to AC, +15 monk = 33 total AC.

Roughly a few points more than a mlevel 25 heavy plate as I believe those cap at +31 or +32 AC.

The tradeoff for cloth armor is IF you don't invest in the physical mitigation then your physical mitigation and hp is slightly lower and you have increased magical mitigation (hey evasion/imp evasion/best save progression in game). If you make the effort though with cloth you get the magical mitigation of light/cloth armor with better AC than a heavy non-shield and the PRR of a full SD3+ tower shield. Oh yeah, also best healing amp in the game as a melee.

[TPICKRELL]

As soon as I find a way to get above 25% dodge without gimping a toon I might care more that there's a limit, but honestly the "gimp factor" serves as enough of a soft limit that we really should need one.

if you want to blow all your Twists and multiple gear slots on dodge where is the harm? There's a pretty big DPS loss that's the trade-off.

Agreed. EXCEPT that I think you end up with WORSE DAMAGE MITIGATION. If you can twist in something like +6 stunning DC from Legendary or extra damage from Fury of the wild sense weakness... A stunning monk will kill the mob at least 10-15% faster from that single effect and avoid a lot more damage than 4% dodge could possibly give you.

That's kind of my whole problem here, I get more damage mitigation by putting everything into my DPS output than I do by putting it into dodge.

[TPICKRELL]

...
Could SOME things use a review of dodge provided... absolutely. Chattering ring for example has lost almost all of its use as an item imo. But any increases to dodge value don't need to be from increased dodge cap, or as inherent parts of the monk class, they should be analyzed on items and feats... things that are accessible to everyone.
....

It's time to go home, so I'm going to stop debating the details, as I'm pretty much aligned with this paragraph from your post.

I made the PRR = 50 comment to make a point that this is now yet another way in which dodge is inferior to PRR. I don't care about the 25% cap, its symbolic at best. And I've never asked for more monk inherent mitigation.

All I've asked for is that dodge from items/twists/feats be rebalanced so that they have a reasonable damage mitigation for the investment they require. For my toons, 4 Dodge in the old AC system is way more valualbe than 4% dodge in the new system. And I agree chattering rings and iceys were premier damage mitigation items a couple of weeks ago and they are complete vendor trash today.

[whomhead]

Right! All we have to do is splash barbarian!

Let us do that and we'll call it even

Wish granted! It's called Fury of the Wild, and it is awesome.

[Veriden]

The limit for dodge is intended to stay. We may add abilities that allow you to increase this limit for certain character builds.

so why keep monks? Why not just replace them with sword sage from the book of 9 swords? You guys obviously don't want people to play monks and sword sages would solve EVERY problem monk has right now. Light armor + wis bonus to ac + cool little ki like special strikes, this would make every one happy + you can eliminate handwraps (ergo the bugs surrounding them.)

Moral of the story, there is absolutely no reason to make one class vastly inferior to it's peers as a melee..let alone the gap between melee and caster.

[elg582]

OK, so my tank monk (12 monk/7 fighter/1 rogue), that used to have superior damage mitigation to make up for having fewer hp, can now match a fighter's damage mitigation (although I would like to see the numbers on a dwarf fighter's dodge + ac + incorporeal + blur + PRR; I can't see how any monk-splash build could touch that), if I give up all pretense of dealing damage which, since intimidate is not a monk skill, rules out actually being able to tank. Or dps. Or buff the party.

I suppose that I can sit in the back and use the /cheer emote; can we get an ability that lets us buff others that way? Maybe put some pom-poms and miniskirts in the store...

[Stillwaters]

My Dervish of Death, can mix it up against casters with evasion, OR chuck on his best heavy armor for bonus AC and PRR if mainly a melee fight.

My standard dodge (just from bonus feats) is 7% -Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack
which i can easily fit on 1/2 plate with a tower shield (though i'm currently using a heavy with better DR and AC and lower ASF) should be able to fit 10-15%.
In my light armor (Parasitic breastplate with +10 REF crafted) i have great evasion but lose a tiny bit of AC and a chunk of PRR.

I have 1/2 rank umd so can easily use displace scrolls

Honestly i think the dodge cap should be lifted for monks if someone wanted to invest so hard into dodge they should be rewarded not capped. As it is rogues and barbs can easily reach same dodge levels as a monk and can do it in light armor with higher PRR.

[OliviaCrowley]

I wrote a wall of text here. Then the browser ate it. My monk is 23/5, rocking everything she encounters, and plays fine. I don't know why your experiences have been so negative.

[InSoNiAc]

Can anyone confirm if the dodge cap applies to temporary boosts as well at static items and feats?

On my rogue with 14% base dodge, when I activate Improved Uncanny am I actually getting 64% or am I just getting boosted up to the cap of 25%?

[Willan]

Temporary effects like A Scattering of Petals and (Improved) Uncanny Dodge clicky go above the cap.

[elg582]

Wish granted! It's called Fury of the Wild, and it is awesome.

Does it give you uncanny dodge?

[Carkolda]

To me it seems that having an arbitrary cap is meaningless and does nothing but aggravate the customers (the players).

First, what is the point? If someone wants to devote their entire build to being a Dodge Tank, let them! This is based off D&D, right? Don't be that Nazi GM that says "no" to a build because you think it's OP. If someone can invent a better mousetrap, you should let them try it. Otherwise you end up with disgruntled players utilizing cookie-cutter builds and they don't try to reach for the stars. Just like has been discussed, it is possible to have the PRR and Dodge build, so why not just have the dodge build? Is it so terrible that someone creates a toon that is missed 60-70% of the time?

Second, what is missing from this conversation is the combination factor of AC + Dodge. Monks, with a high wisdom, are going to have a high AC. My AC right now on my 15 Cleric / 3 Monk is 43, a 39% miss chance, and I'm wearing a level 16 Frozen Tunic. Add in the 8% I'm supposed to get (as opposed to the 17% I'm getting now), I have a base "miss" chance of 47%. That's still getting missed half the time. Granted, I don't have PRR, but being missed half the time isn't a bad thing.

Third, what was the rationale for denying PRR to armor bonuses from cloth again? I mean, if heavy armor grants it because of the sheer bulk associated with the item (which makes sense), why wouldn't the force protection of magic items/mage armor bleed off even a little bit? When enemies are sneak-attacking you for 220 points of damage at level 18 (yes, I've been hit by that -- thanks Turbine for Fort Bypass), even 8% is 18 hp saved. I also don't understand why natural armor doesn't come into play, either. I know that with dodge, you need to maintain the balance, but wearing no "armor" seems like a slap in the face.

What about magical effects? Things like "Entropic Shield" should be there to assist against ranged snipes, and luck bonus should add to dodge (heck, you're lucky!). Why are these excluded?

I know the general intent behind dodge was to give wizards/sorcs some sort of defense against enemy attack, but they inadvertently hurt pure monk builds. I think that not only should there be no cap, but you should allow other items and spells should add where they currently don't.

[Dagolar]

The limit for dodge is intended to stay. We may add abilities that allow you to increase this limit for certain character builds.

The cap is understandable.
However, can we get a response on how having the dodge bonuses from Ocean Stance (and its GotF bonus) apply to the cap (rather than exceed it) makes Ocean Stance absolutely worthless, with Earth Stance being able to EASILY reach the low cap, while offering better health, armor class, and PRR?

[Riggs]

The post is a 12monk/6fighter/2 whatever AND includes the PRR values for a 20 monk directly below it.

Try again.

The point that you are missing is that BECAUSE those options are there for monks, and increased inherent defenses would cause them to exceed the mitigation that full blown non-evasion tank builds get which causes a whole seperate sort of balance issues. Any increases to monk as a baseline would likely have to come with tradeoffs to their top end mitigation as it is extremely competetive with fighter tanks and exceeding that of paladin tanks.

Ok so I was skimming and swapped the 12 ftr for 12 monk.

Either way - it is a multiclass with fighter levels. Not a pure monk, not a light monk (unless you are saying there should not be light monks?), and only earth stance allowed. Forget air/fire/water.

once again - one specific multiclass using only a very specific build does absolutely nothing for the class as a whole - or anyone else wearing cloth even that used to have a dex/wis AC build.

So still - invalid.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Die steps aren't broken. They were fixed to work with the new [W]

The scenario..

Level 20 Monk 3.5[x]
Earth + JT .5[x]
Active Monk PL .5[x]
First Tier GMoF .5[x]

at 1d6 +30 I should be seeing top main damage numbers of 5*6 +30 = 60

The most I am seeing is 54

Something is not working properly....

[Thar]

The limit for dodge is intended to stay. We may add abilities that allow you to increase this limit for certain character builds.

Can we have dodge back to AC? The dex based toons are destroyed by this update. not only did the to hit calc's change, but we lost our dodge ac bonus as well. my 80+ ac ranger dropped and even wearing armor can't get close to where i was, much less the higher ac needed now with the to hit change.

Your forcing everyone to go str builds and we want variety!