Feedback: Fury of the Wild

[LeLoric]

There are many ways to skin a cat, I never said that your claims were baseless, I merely asked how you calculated it.

It would be equally correct to say that unbridled adds 0.75*0.5 as it would be to say the addition is 1.75/1.35-1.

Its still roughly a 29% increase which was always my claim for the glancings which my numbers proved sure you can rewrite my equation but it still doesn't match your claim of what kind of dmg it did.

I'm sorry if this basic difference in the way I did the math wasn't apparent to you

It's apparent to me but match up your numbers with your claims next time

Also, I was under the distinct impression that glancing blows generally had a ~ 10% chance of proccing magical effects, more for wf/horc/barb iff you spend the ap on it. 100/10 is somewhat higher than 1.29.

Kensai also gets a big boost here with no ap spent. Barbs and kensai are also the two likely classes to take fury. In general most thf doesn't carry a lot of procs anyways. Esos may have a deadly weapons or the likes and a force ritual but that's about it. Antique greataxe force burst we aren't talking about high amounts of additional procs here anyways. Not enough to swing the amount of swings for recovery to much eaither way.

Well I've quite explicitly stated that the sky is the limit for one nought assuming a coordinated party. Multiple mentions of "second spot", A working knowledge of what you are trying to discuss is a vital thing here.

No the sky is not the limit stacks end at 10 now, not that thats a horrible thing but I don't think the devs found me racking up 70+ stacks fairly frequently to be too amusing.

But that's only for heavy fort, we're currently discussing the impact of adrenaline gaining alot against no fort. A working knowledge of what you are trying to discuss is a vital thing here.

No its for any average dmg per swing comparison I stated so in the post you quoted. You just change your computations on the average dmg per swing.

In fact my numbers are fairly biased in relation to fury here as I actually figured the adrenaline recharge into my comparison so my actual y value in that is higher than it should be and in essence my example counted adrenaine average dmg into the 40y factor to calculate the new adrenaline bonus.

Well you could use

to type things that take up space

unless you're doing it by hand and not by computer. I have posted examples and I did not find it very tedious. I would be happy with a plain copy paste, don't need fancy explanations, would like to catch any differences between your calcs and mine. It's kind of central to the comparison.

Has nothing to do with copy/paste. All my work is done on maple via programs written for such comparisons. It allows me to quickly compare two seperate builds/gearsets etc but to show a step by step breakdown of the computations I would have to generally rewrite everythign which I really don't want to do for a game.

That would double the benefit of blitz, against heavy fort that would not be enough to put the nought on par during the moment, not even close with no fort. And that's assuming you waste adrenaline on regular attacks.

Not necessarily as remember you get your starting amount for 50% for the time up until you get the kill. Then you get a full timer of 75% another of 50% and a third for 25%. Well more than double. Plus once again fort is irregardless in this situation. Sure you come out higher than a non fort situation but dreadnaught makes up that amount at a higher rate too.

It's quite clearly described in the post you are quoting. The fury starts out way ahead due to starting with multiple adrenaline uses. As described in detail, the nought only makes up for it if there is extended fighting between shrines. The ability to decide when you use those big lumpo sums is not insignificant if you take the actual game into consideration. You can't make comparisons like this in a vacuum.

Oh I agree theres always mitigating factors but 99% of those would affect both characters to a certain degree and to try and quantify that would be absurd, but it's not like dreadnaught doesn't have it's capability to affect things in their favor too. Ya know like not keeping boost up during inactive times. Better stun dc's to leverage their helplessness advantage better.

I'm not saying that your claims are baseless, just that you might be missing a couple of very important points. Also, you are likely more familiar with the exact details of the higher tier abilities. I have been working 60 hour weeks the last month or two and would rather spend what little time I have at home with the kids, or playing the game, rather than level chars on the test server.

Ya know I work a heavy work load too and have two kids another on the way etc. That's all great but fairly irrelevant in this discussion.

Yes, but the fury starts out way ahead due to having multiple adrenaline uses to start with. Also, as far as I can tell, it's less than 5% difference in most cases, if you don't use adrenaline optimally.

Varies per build and time between shrines and hundreds of other factors. Just saying that on an average comparison between the two builds across several different characters factoring in things in a fairly generic use that's what I came up with. Anyone can cook the scenario etc for a swing either way that's why I tend to stay in mostly generics unless asked about a specific situation like norg did.

As for fury starting out ahead sure he does but (except for unbridled which we already quantified) you will approach a limit of one adrenaline per 60.6 swings (using a recharge rate of 1.65%, .05% chance to vorpal and 33% chance to replenish) Irregardless of how many you started with. This amount approaches the limit quite rapidly also as you only have 6 left to use. This was the exact same issue with the haunting effect they tried to implement it had a strict limit. Sure quests with rapid fire shrines will sway more in the favor of adrenaline but if they are coming that fast theres also the likelyhood a dreadnaught may not have to shrine each time and do more dmg casue they arent sitting on their rears in front of a statue.

Of course it doesn't increase your damage per swing, you can however represent it as such.
e.g. 100 damage/swing, 26.1% attack rate increase, the attack rate increase is equivalent to 26.1 damage/swing.
e.g. rate increase A is 26.1%, rate increase B is 17.4%. A-B=8.7%. 8.7% of 100=8.7
I did not post a blanket number, I posted a range, a estimation. Sorry if I didn't spell out the basic math for you.

By converting to a comparitive dmg per swing amount like you did you just overly complicate things. It makes it harder to adjust as you then have to back out of haste boost readjust your actual dmg per swing amount and then reconvert.

My advantage? Your advantage? I thought we were objectively discussing nought and fury, not being all personally invested.

Semantics belong in a legal courtroom not a mathematical comparison. However if you'd like me to restate for you. Your given claim of an advantage of zero is inaccurate in all but the following situations:

And in the same way that it would be very unlikely to never be in the situation of having no monsters to fight during the cooldown, in the same way it would be very unlikely to always having monsters to fight during the cooldown.

Yep thanks for making my point. Fact is the dreadnaught can leverage either of these situations in their favor much easier due to the fact that they never have a situation where they can't boost when they might want to. Furthermore your example is much less of an issue for the most important fights for melees (bosses) where you will very infrequently run out of something to fight in the midst of a boost.

In fact the former would be more likely since you could zerg ahead while on cooldown, thus ensuring that the cooldown never came into play. That would likely be somewhat unfeasible though.

Show me that fraps video of any quest where you never stop moving/advancing the quest and your 10 second downtime is always during a time of no battle.

Fair enough. As was obvious from my posts, I was not aware of the proc chance increasing with tiers. That does increase the relative strength by the nought, but not by overly much.

20% of your swings being 5(w) is a pretty significant advantage especially when 80% of those are at 3x critical threat range and the other 20% at x1 extra multiplier and aoe to boot.

If we're discussing the benefits of reduced fort we're obviously not discussing heavy fort any more.
A working knowledge of the actual discussion is a vital thing here.

Once again your first reply to me and all subsequent stemmed from my 100% fort comprison I provided when norg requested it. When you quoted my last post to which I replied with your above qoute the part you grabbed was a direct explanation of that 100%fort situation.

I wrote a range, not a flat number. I was quite clear with my assumptions for 2wf/2hf base damage.

Your range is far too narrow to be all encompassing and you neglect to give a specific example your range applied to so therefore it makes an unfounded assumption. Either present a variable as I did or state your basis for the range.

My adrenaline numbers are way out of whack? In what way?
It's quite simple really; 100% damage +400% damage = 500% damage
x5 damage x3 multiplier=15
x5 damage x4 multiplier=20
x5 damage x6 exalted smite multiplier=30
15-<expected damage for weapon type>=benefit
benefit/how many swings it takes to regain adrenaline=%benefit per swing
benefit per swing * damage=damage benefit per swing

First it's not a flat 500% dmg as not every bit of dmg on the swing is multiplied. Second outliers like exalted smite from a paladin require special circumstances. Yes a paladin gains much more from adrenaline however they also do much less than other classes on their non adrenaline attacks. Because the total is lower the amoutn thatt fury and dreadnaught provide percentage wise is much higher meaning that the x-y difference I talked about earlier is also a much higher percentage of total dmg per swing and therefore regains the extra smite dmg at a much higher level. This is a pretty clear example of why either provide a variable or a basis should be required.

Lastly adrenaline can miss on a 1 right? Im not exactly sure or if it then just applies to next attack? It's a huge downer if it does. So much lost potential that .05% miss rate should be factored in here. Then theres also mob moved during the swing etc. Lastly outside of

What paramount differences is there between the available descriptions and how they play? How many things added by the destinies are significantly different gameplay wise from what we have on live? In what way does it matter if I have played them or not?
Can't my possible errors be corrected by those who know better?

Lot's of things change from play. One big variable that affects my numbers too is activation times and varied swing speeds. Momentum swing has a documented slow swing on certain races/weapons. Fury also has some similar activation delays etc. With out a serious attempt at swing speed rates calculations (I have not the patience nor time to do what vanshilaar does for these) the best way to know if one is significantly worse than the other is through playing. There's also weapon range issues with some attacks not being as far reaching as normal ones creating misses.

As is obvious from my posts, despite my limited possibilities/willingness to spend time on lammania, I have at least logged on sufficiently long to verify that adrenaline does indeed work with MS+IPS.

Just curious what beta version. Not knocking your claim and whether you have time or not specifically just curious as to when or how often you have checked this. Many thing change from one build to another. Several brought up in this post. I ask more out of curiousity for my ranger than anything.

As a closing remark, I find it quite intriguing that you do not even comment on optimal use of adrenaline via momentum swing/smite/MS.

I can adress this. Yes it's probably the most advantageous time but not as big of an advantage as you claim.

I kinda already addressed smite here so not gonna rehash that.

As for using on momentum swing. This is a poor choice. Momentum swing gives a +5(w) attack with a +3 threat range modifier. With any weapon with a crit range of 5 or better you will guarantee a crit on any hit with adrenaline so you lose probably the biggest benefit to momentum swing and only retain the +5(w)

Let's consider the esos here. It has a base dmg amount of 2d6 or 7 avg dmg. 5x7=35 extra base dmg per momentum swing. crit range is generally 3x although some effects like fb/overwhelming critical can make the 19-20 attack higher. If we consider best case scenario of a fb III with overwhelming crit the 19-20 range crits will be 7x so our 35 when factored into crits becomes .85(35*3)+.1(35*7) =113.75 multiply this by you 500% gives 568.75 dmg over using this on a momentum swing versus a normal swing.

Now take that same 35 extra dmg on a non adrenaline swing by the same character and
you get 35*.5+35*3*.35+35*7*.1=78.75

So it's a 490 difference. Significant? Depends on your perspective. my calculations show a well geared dreadnaught fb with the same esos should make this amount up in about 8 swings and the remainder of the adrenaline advantage in another 32 so that leaves about 20 more swings for the fb to generate a net positive advantage.

[LeLoric]

Just wanted to thank you for actually posting some numerical analysis. There has been an abundance of base claims with no justification in both closed and open beta. Initially it was obvious that Fury was far behind Dreadnaught, but as it became less so with some buffs to Fury it became necessary for a side by side comparison and thank you for beginning the process however late.

Personally I just want two balanced destinies with some different thematic options. I have a blitz build 12 fighter 6 barbarian 2 rogue which is currently my main melee dps character and the blitz could go either fury or LD in a thematic sense.

I would just like to point out that I like insult in a raid party quite a bit if anything that should last a longer duration but the 20% fort reduction is quite nice in a raid party. I would consider twisting that on a dreadnaught.

Finally, I have to say that the three most likely raid bosses next update will be either a demon or shade or dracolich when looking at the legend and lore for the forgotten realms area we will be playing in. Since dracolich is a boss I have seen requested repeatedly on these forums and we are fighting a demon this update I would put the dracolich as #1 on possible next raid bosses just saying.

You are welcome for the numbers. I do this for a living and sometimes don;t feel like a detailed explanation in the forums but there seemed to be enough push back here I thought Id throw some out. Just remember not every claim without numbers is without basis. Although it is pretty hard to wade through a lot of them on a forum and discern who is right and who isn't. I'll readily admit i am wrong occasionally too although that pill is hard to swallow. Most of it is due to stupid arithmetic/translation errors or misunderstanding of how something works.

Fury has made strides and is close. It's close enough that the big huge numbers generated by fury can definitely make it feel/play comparable to the more steady higher dps dreadnaught. Dps difference is just less than 10% in most every situation. Numerically that seems high but in reality its generally an extra couple swings a minute. Not enough to really significantly raise/lower play times.

I agree too I would want someone to have insult but ya only need one maybe two max. Having at least one dreadnaught and one fury in a raid is a strong benefit to two of one or the other. However any class that has fury unlocked can easily twist in insult if just for that quest at no cost or even switch to fury entirely for that quest. These things don't cost any plat its just reallocating points within a specific destiny or reallocating your destiny points that has a cost. I think thats a hugely overlooked factor of the destiny system. I can swap from sentinel to dreadnaught on my stalwart when not necessarily tanking, or go from magister to draconic on my wizard when nuking is a higher priority. You don't have to be just a fury or just a dreadnaught in fact doing so is somewhat equivalent to a cleric just healing or a bard just singing.

You are right very well could be a dracolich next raid but even then I doubt he will be at 100% fort for much of the fight. Even currently on ive we have a lot of tools to reduce fort and are gaining a lot more. People complain about not wanting rogues in their elite raids whenin all actuality the fort in an elite shroud/tod etc should be lower than the old 50% value especeially when factoring in the rogues bypass capability.

[Vargouille]

Did you get a chance to fix this so the extra damage effects work with unarmed?

Yes, the damage effects in Fury of the Wild should now be working with unarmed.

[Vargouille]

I will still argue that adrenaline in combination with when combined with exalted smite or MS/IPS is crazy broken

There was a bug at one point where Adrenaline could last for multiple hits of Manyshot. That should be fixed now, and if it isn't, expect that to change at some point!

[Vargouille]

I would really appreciate it if someone would tell me if adrenaline will work with ranged attacks and not just melee.

Yes.

[zealous]

Its still roughly a 29% increase which was always my claim for the glancings which my numbers proved sure you can rewrite my equation but it still doesn't match your claim of what kind of dmg it did.

Your initial claim was:

less than 25% dmg from glancings

That you look at relative benefit rather than "raw" benefit, as I do, explains most of it but not the discrepancy between your initial and latter numbers.

It's apparent to me but match up your numbers with your claims next time

Since my numbers are plain to see, why not spell out what part of them doesn't match up if they indeed are erroneous?

Kensai also gets a big boost here with no ap spent. Barbs and kensai are also the two likely classes to take fury. In general most thf doesn't carry a lot of procs anyways. Esos may have a deadly weapons or the likes and a force ritual but that's about it. Antique greataxe force burst we aren't talking about high amounts of additional procs here anyways. Not enough to swing the amount of swings for recovery to much eaither way.

It might be of importance for some builds, depending on if ED abilities carry a 100% proc chance it might be of importance for everyone.

No the sky is not the limit stacks end at 10 now, not that thats a horrible thing but I don't think the devs found me racking up 70+ stacks fairly frequently to be too amusing.

That's dissappointing but somewhat understandable.

No its for any average dmg per swing comparison I stated so in the post you quoted. You just change your computations on the average dmg per swing.

In fact my numbers are fairly biased in relation to fury here as I actually figured the adrenaline recharge into my comparison so my actual y value in that is higher than it should be and in essence my example counted adrenaine average dmg into the 40y factor to calculate the new adrenaline bonus.

Does not compute =P
If y~base damage for heavy fort
Adrenaline gain during unbridled would indeed be 40y, or 60y if you choose to add the 5 extra adrenaline charges here.

For no fort y~1.35*base damage for khopesh, 1.15 for axes + whatever you get from PrCs/class (kensai/FB mainly)
Adrenaline gain would be roughly equivalent to 10 adrenaline shots*(5*multiplier-y) (range 2 weapons would only get ~95% due to getting a regular hit on a 2), i.e. ~136/130 for khopesh and axe, respectively.
khopesh; 40y=54, this is substantially lower than 136
axe;40y=46, this is substantially lower than 130.

Has nothing to do with copy/paste. All my work is done on maple via programs written for such comparisons. It allows me to quickly compare two seperate builds/gearsets etc but to show a step by step breakdown of the computations I would have to generally rewrite everythign which I really don't want to do for a game.

Well I'd be more than satisfied if you could be bothered to post/pm the code or provide a link to where I could download it.

Not necessarily as remember you get your starting amount for 50% for the time up until you get the kill. Then you get a full timer of 75% another of 50% and a third for 25%. Well more than double. Plus once again fort is irregardless in this situation. Sure you come out higher than a non fort situation but dreadnaught makes up that amount at a higher rate too.

Fair enough =)
Double to double and a half.

Oh I agree theres always mitigating factors but 99% of those would affect both characters to a certain degree and to try and quantify that would be absurd, but it's not like dreadnaught doesn't have it's capability to affect things in their favor too. Ya know like not keeping boost up during inactive times. Better stun dc's to leverage their helplessness advantage better.

I was thinking more along the lines of adrenaline giving a large boost when it's needed the most, i.e. you get the entire gain during the difficult encounters, take out casters, take out bosses. Nought gives a steady benefit where the relative worth will be lessend by much of it being used when it's not really needed. It's akin to the fuzziness of the benefit of no cd boosts, although less tangible. I agree that it's nigh impossible to quantify unless you "zerg to the end and kill the boss".

Ya know I work a heavy work load too and have two kids another on the way etc. That's all great but fairly irrelevant in this discussion.

It's relevant in the sence that it argues that if I'm not allowed to give you flack about not providing all the numbers, you're not allowed to give me flack about having some...well...ok many of the details wrong
Max gratz too ofc.

Varies per build and time between shrines and hundreds of other factors. Just saying that on an average comparison between the two builds across several different characters factoring in things in a fairly generic use that's what I came up with. Anyone can cook the scenario etc for a swing either way that's why I tend to stay in mostly generics unless asked about a specific situation like norg did.

Agreed on all accounts.

As for fury starting out ahead sure he does but (except for unbridled which we already quantified) you will approach a limit of one adrenaline per 60.6 swings (using a recharge rate of 1.65%, .05% chance to vorpal and 33% chance to replenish) Irregardless of how many you started with. This amount approaches the limit quite rapidly also as you only have 6 left to use. This was the exact same issue with the haunting effect they tried to implement it had a strict limit. Sure quests with rapid fire shrines will sway more in the favor of adrenaline but if they are coming that fast theres also the likelyhood a dreadnaught may not have to shrine each time and do more dmg casue they arent sitting on their rears in front of a statue.

Well you can quite easily determine how much fighting must take place between shrines for the nought to catch up/surpass the fury. Damage gained from 5 adrenaline uses/DPS advantage for nought.

By converting to a comparitive dmg per swing amount like you did you just overly complicate things. It makes it harder to adjust as you then have to back out of haste boost readjust your actual dmg per swing amount and then reconvert.

Not quite. I use functions so adjusting for different builds/weapons etc. is no different.
As far as I understand you calculate
a=damage/swing e.g. 100
b=attack speed e.g. 3 attacks/s
c=average speed increase from boost e.g. 1.25
Then get the total doing a*b*c
What I do is basicly the same, only I do a + a*(c-1) i.e. 100 + 25, the base attack speed only comes into play when comparing different weapon styles, then (always) you just normalize by the slowest attack speed. E.g. for build <foo> the attack speed of unarmed is the equivalent to 10 damage/swing.

I find it easier to compare abilities when I easily can determine that in scenario A, haste boost is equivalent to roughly 4d6. Same maths, more human readable presentation imo.

Yep thanks for making my point. Fact is the dreadnaught can leverage either of these situations in their favor much easier due to the fact that they never have a situation where they can't boost when they might want to. Furthermore your example is much less of an issue for the most important fights for melees (bosses) where you will very infrequently run out of something to fight in the midst of a boost.

Queen teleporting to pillars, LoB going superman, suulo porting up on pillar, running from pillars to velah and back, any regular quest when you kill all mobs in range within the span of a boost/mid nth boost, quest bosses not lasting longer than the span of a boost/dying mid nth boost?

The calcs you showed assumed that the LD always gets full benefit from the cd reduction. There is no way for the LD to "leverage" that parts of the boost cds for non LDs are spent between combat. It's not a realistic assumption.

Realisticly the fight could end at any time, e.g. all melee pop boost, flower dude does his thing and everything dies up to supah had static baws dude lasting for minutes upon minutes. The benefit of no cd is dependent on expected length of no lulls encounters.

Show me that fraps video of any quest where you never stop moving/advancing the quest and your 10 second downtime is always during a time of no battle.

Ummm...zerging any quest? You could doesn't necessarily equate to you would. I frequently find myself (invis)zerging through quests, only stopping to pull levers/pick up stuff/kill required stuff. Sometimes that involves culling the train you've got following you.

Dreadnaught gets benefits from reduced fort on the... in no fort situations.

getting +50% damage on helpless targets as opposed to the 30% of the fury

I didn't ignore the 50% versus 30% on helplessness. The situation I was comparing was a 100% fort raid boss.

If we're discussing the benefits of reduced fort we're obviously not discussing heavy fort any more.

Once again...100% fort comprison...100%fort situation.

Let's agree on disagreeing and leave it at that. =)

Your range is far too narrow to be all encompassing and you neglect to give a specific example your range applied to so therefore it makes an unfounded assumption. Either present a variable as I did or state your basis for the range.

Ummm...I did provide the assumptions...

Assuming 80twf, 1002hf base damage.

I guess I could have written "8 or 10" to make it clearer.

First it's not a flat 500% dmg as not every bit of dmg on the swing is multiplied.

Well I'm calculating the "raw" benefit, not the relative benefit, so special effects etc. doesn't need to be accounted for.

Second outliers like exalted smite from a paladin require special circumstances.

I wouldn't call evil mobs a special circumstance but rather a quite common circumstance. =)

Yes a paladin gains much more from adrenaline however they also do much less than other classes on their non adrenaline attacks. Because the total is lower the amoutn thatt fury and dreadnaught provide percentage wise is much higher meaning that the x-y difference I talked about earlier is also a much higher percentage of total dmg per swing and therefore regains the extra smite dmg at a much higher level. This is a pretty clear example of why either provide a variable or a basis should be required.

Well how much less, and under which assumptions?
Going by e.g. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299620 they seem to be doing quite ok. Granted things have changed since then but otoh they do get access to damage/haste boost and you only need 14 paladin levels to gain the most of the benefits. More on this later.

Lastly adrenaline can miss on a 1 right? Im not exactly sure or if it then just applies to next attack? It's a huge downer if it does. So much lost potential that .05% miss rate should be factored in here. Then theres also mob moved during the swing etc. Lastly outside of

Removed on hit iirc,i.e. retain it if you miss, also meaning that it will be impacted less by theoretical high AC/dodge mobs.

Lot's of things change from play. One big variable that affects my numbers too is activation times and varied swing speeds. Momentum swing has a documented slow swing on certain races/weapons. Fury also has some similar activation delays etc. With out a serious attempt at swing speed rates calculations (I have not the patience nor time to do what vanshilaar does for these) the best way to know if one is significantly worse than the other is through playing. There's also weapon range issues with some attacks not being as far reaching as normal ones creating misses.

Yeah, you might need to adjust for additional parameters and some combos might be more difficult to play. Also, I reckon few if any players reach the efficiency assumed in most calcs. You just need to take it with a grain of salt, it's sufficient to determine if things are different enough to have a impact that's robust to moderate deviations from your assumptions.

Just curious what beta version. Not knocking your claim and whether you have time or not specifically just curious as to when or how often you have checked this. Many thing change from one build to another. Several brought up in this post. I ask more out of curiousity for my ranger than anything.

Some 30-60 minutes prior to posting

So yes, you can do a adrenaline boosted manyshot against all the mobs you can line up.

Again this thursday.

20% of your swings being 5(w) is a pretty significant advantage especially when 80% of those are at 3x critical threat range and the other 20% at x1 extra multiplier and aoe to boot.

As for using on momentum swing. This is a poor choice. Momentum swing gives a +5(w) attack with a +3 threat range modifier. With any weapon with a crit range of 5 or better you will guarantee a crit on any hit with adrenaline so you lose probably the biggest benefit to momentum swing and only retain the +5(w)

^^
The info I had at hand had momentum swing with +1/2?/3 multiplier and lay waste withouta multiplier bonus. This changes quite a lot since the increased potency of lay waste compared to what I thought it was bumps the nought up in the "reasonable to gain advantage pretty much all the time" range.

Thanks for the patience and helping me understand why I was wrong =)

[zealous]

There was a bug at one point where Adrenaline could last for multiple hits of Manyshot. That should be fixed now, and if it isn't, expect that to change at some point!

That's not what I'm referring to.
One adrenaline on one manyshot + improved precise shot hit will do:
base damage*500%*3 multiplier*4 arrows* however many mobs you can line up, will it not?

[jejeba86]

That's not what I'm referring to.
One adrenaline on one manyshot + improved precise shot hit will do:
base damage*500%*3 multiplier*4 arrows* however many mobs you can line up, will it not?

Well, analyzing what he said, you would have to change your 4 arrows variable for 1 arrow only.
I'm my opinion, it's explicitly said that adrenaline should work for just one arrow in many shot.
About line, that's hard. Is the damage from the arrow calculated when it goes out of your weapon, or when the monster is hit?
Better saying, when shooting a line, do all mobs take the same damage or all take a different number?
If each mob takes a different damage, I assume that damage is calculated on mob being hit, and thus adrenaline would work just for the first on the line.

[Rizzia]

Well, analyzing what he said, you would have to change your 4 arrows variable for 1 arrow only.
I'm my opinion, it's explicitly said that adrenaline should work for just one arrow in many shot.
About line, that's hard. Is the damage from the arrow calculated when it goes out of your weapon, or when the monster is hit?
Better saying, when shooting a line, do all mobs take the same damage or all take a different number?
If each mob takes a different damage, I assume that damage is calculated on mob being hit, and thus adrenaline would work just for the first on the line.

While I agree I think it'll be the first arrow..How does adreniline work with supreme cleave? I mean is it the first mob or all mobs, cause IPS should reflect that.

[jejeba86]

While I agree I think it'll be the first arrow..How does adreniline work with supreme cleave? I mean is it the first mob or all mobs, cause IPS should reflect that.

I remember reading someone's feedback about using momentum swing with adrenaline, where the +400% would affect only the first mob hit by the attack, which is the one in your front. The same must apply to all cleaves.

[Vazok1]

Yes, the damage effects in Fury of the Wild should now be working with unarmed.

Thank you for that, that is great news. It will be fun for many characters. (mine included hehe)

There was a bug at one point where Adrenaline could last for multiple hits of Manyshot. That should be fixed now, and if it isn't, expect that to change at some point!

I'm not sure if you are referring to the situation where multiple draws of the bow string would all retain adrenaline effect or that all 4 of the arrows would hit with adrenaline on one draw of the bow, or maybe you were referring to both.
Personally I'd like it if all 4 arrows hit 1 mob off 1 draw of the bow with adrenaline, then stopped. Whether the numbers allow that kind of boost I do not know.
I would be a tiiiiiny bit disappointed if it was only 1 arrow for 1 inflated damage number out of the 4 arrows available, though I would understand if the numbers were just too big. I don't think they would be though if you took into account ranged attacks don't get the tunnel vision or sense weakness damage applied either.

[zealous]

Well, analyzing what he said, you would have to change your 4 arrows variable for 1 arrow only.

Iirc there was once a bug where you would retain the adrenaline buff after making a ranged attack, what he wrote seemed to indicate that he was referring to that situation.
MS is one attack that get's 4 arrows fired at the same time. Adrenaline is correctly removed by one attack, yet you get the buff to all arrows of that one attack.

Basicly this:

I'm not sure if you are referring to the situation where multiple draws of the bow string would all retain adrenaline effect or that all 4 of the arrows would hit with adrenaline on one draw of the bow, or maybe you were referring to both.

Personally I'd like it if all 4 arrows hit 1 mob off 1 draw of the bow with adrenaline, then stopped. Whether the numbers allow that kind of boost I do not know.

Well that is the way it currently works, except it isn't restricted to 1 mob if you have IPS.
Personally I find that somewhat crazy broken. If you tried to keep adrenaline at a minimum of 5 between MS, use as much as you can during MS it would be more or less equivalent to always having a "quad damage" buff active during MS. Epic moment would be as insane as a overload smiter.
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So fury is really really nice for ranged and paladins.
How good would it be if you had a twinked out paladin tank?

Varg suggested using a "adrenaline powered insult".
So 5k damage overload smite * (1 base + .6 equipment + 1 div.rig + 2 insult + 1 intim) hate modifier = 28k hate in one attack

You would then have the option to wait for 20s for the next insult or just go ahead and unload the remaining 5 adrenaline uses for a total of some 118k hate in 5-10s.

[Shade]

I'm not sure if you are referring to the situation where multiple draws of the bow string would all retain adrenaline effect or that all 4 of the arrows would hit with adrenaline on one draw of the bow, or maybe you were referring to both.
Personally I'd like it if all 4 arrows hit 1 mob off 1 draw of the bow with adrenaline, then stopped. Whether the numbers allow that kind of boost I do not know.
I would be a tiiiiiny bit disappointed if it was only 1 arrow for 1 inflated damage number out of the 4 arrows available, though I would understand if the numbers were just too big. I don't think they would be though if you took into account ranged attacks don't get the tunnel vision or sense weakness damage applied either.

Given manyshot archer builds already have BY FAR the best burst DPS in the game, I think it could be too powerful. I mean just check the dps challenge, the margin they lead by is insane already. Add that? They would be litteraly 300-500% ahead of melee for that burst.

Keep in mind using a bow isn't limited to lower dps classes like rangers. A bow barbarian could crit for in the range of 20,000+ PER MOB if it worked like you asked.

Atm for melee, using it on things lke cleaves/etc that hit multiple targets, it only boosts a single hit for a single enemy. IPS doesn't do that for what I hear, so you already got a great advantage there.

[ainmosni]

Given manyshot archer builds already have BY FAR the best burst DPS in the game, I think it could be too powerful. I mean just check the dps challenge, the margin they lead by is insane already. Add that? They would be litteraly 300-500% ahead of melee for that burst.

Keep in mind using a bow isn't limited to lower dps classes like rangers. A bow barbarian could crit for in the range of 20,000+ PER MOB if it worked like you asked.

Atm for melee, using it on things lke cleaves/etc that hit multiple targets, it only boosts a single hit for a single enemy. IPS doesn't do that for what I hear, so you already got a great advantage there.

SHADE IS ABSALUTELY CORRECT A BOW IS BETTER DPS THEN A BARBARIEN. THANK YOU FOR HUMBLING YOU'RESELF TO ADMIT THAT RANGERS R THE TOP TIER CLASS AND MANYSHOT CAN SOLO BOSS FIGHTS

i

[Shade]

SHADE IS ABSALUTELY CORRECT A BOW IS BETTER DPS THEN A BARBARIEN. THANK YOU FOR HUMBLING YOU'RESELF TO ADMIT THAT RANGERS R THE TOP TIER CLASS AND MANYSHOT CAN SOLO BOSS FIGHTS

i

Archers, not rangers. Rangers aren't nearly as good with bow as a Barbarian is

[ainmosni]

Archers, not rangers. Rangers aren't nearly as good with bow as a Barbarian is

STILL A RANGER, IF U USE BOW WITH A SLAYER AROW U R A RANGER IT BASIC STUFF SHADE

i

[ShadowFlash]

So....I've studied and I've read...many times to digest I must say, that the banter between Shade, Madmatt, Leloric, and Zealous throughout this thread has boosted my understanding beyond any other destiny thread. I personally thank the four of you for civil disagreement, math, play testing, and personal opinions. I view each as equally relevant.

**$-kissing aside , has the state of manyshot changed at all? From what I've read here...adrenaline overload affects all 4 arrows off one attack during MS....in other words, every 3 seconds, with IPS, it's quite tasty.

My wife has a rapier/heavy pick spec AA ranger/barbarian(rogue splashed too), and we're considering this destiny as final (possibly only on this toon, but twisting Shiradi and/or dreadnought is on the table). I'm still wrapping my brain around twists, and balancing against her peculiar playstyle as well. While i can decipher quite a bit of what works with ranged and what doesn't, she is built to be melee effective when not on manyshot, so what components work on ranged is more a curiosity for us, as they would be put to good use in melee mode anyhow.

In short, any insight for a melee TWFing (piercing spec) AA bowbarian (the barian part limited to 8 levels)

Thanks
ShadowFlash & Co.

[Diyon]

STILL A RANGER, IF U USE BOW WITH A SLAYER AROW U R A RANGER IT BASIC STUFF SHADE

i

....Um, no? Being an archer doesn't make you a ranger. "Ranger" in this case is not meaning "one who makes ranged attacks."

In any case, I'd like to see more of the abilities in this destiny work with ranged. Tunnel vision, Fury Eternal, Overwhelming Force, Unstoppable Fury, and at least part of sense weakness, do not work with ranged at least according to description.

I'd think at the very least Fury Eternal should.

[djl]

There is something I am curious about:

Assuming you use a greataxe as your primary and are a LD, would it be worthwhile as a barb to sacrifice the Capstone in order to splash two levels of fighter so that you can take Overwhelming Criticals?

I don't know the math on this, but would going from x8 to x9 crit multiplier provide more DPS than 10% glancing damage?

[SisAmethyst]

....Um, no? Being an archer doesn't make you a ranger. "Ranger" in this case is not meaning "one who makes ranged attacks."

In any case, I'd like to see more of the abilities in this destiny work with ranged. Tunnel vision, Fury Eternal, Overwhelming Force, Unstoppable Fury, and at least part of sense weakness, do not work with ranged at least according to description.

I'd think at the very least Fury Eternal should.

While ainmosni may have an issue with the caps look key I guess the point probably was that only Rangers, or better say Arcane Archers get the possibility to create Imbue Slaying Arrows on demand. On the other side one could argue that an Arcane Archer is not necessarily a Ranger

However it is a burst damage and if a Sorc unloads his deadly arsenal of spells his damage is as well huge and I personally think it is difficult to compare burst damage of one class to a steady output of crits of another class.