Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[Thrudh]

The funny thing is a well built melee isn't so far behind wizards in being able to kill 'trash' mobs as everyone thinks, and lets face it this change is only affecting trash mobs.

You are wrong.

My melees are well-built, double or triple TRs with tons of epic gear (gathered by my wizard). They do well in quests. I don't need a caster or a healer to come along to succeed. My wizard is a single TR with ZERO epic gear, and he kills 5x as fast as my melee..

No melee can gather up 30 mobs and kill 25 of them with two button clicks... Oh AND have a self-healing aura going on at the same time.

[Thrudh]

Wow, what a perceptive point. Nerfing an entire prestige class by eviscerating all of its most powerful abilities doesn't force a change in playstyle... /sarcasm

Palemasters most powerful ability is the death aura... An archmage can achieve nearly the same necro DC as a palemaster. The only reason I changed from archmage to palemaster was for the extra CON, and the self-healing aura (which is HUGE)

[GermanicusMaximus]

I want to see that moronic 1000 HP cap that was put on vorpal weapons removed! Have it so any mobs can get it's head copped off and DIE! Like it should be doing! Regardless of how many HP it has!

I could support that. I still find myself occasionally popping open my bank window and staring at my dusty +5 Vorpal Greatsword.

On the other hand, Terror is the new vorpal, and they essentially give them away to everyone who owns IQ1.

[Faent]

With more and more reflection, I'm thinking Haunting is a bad idea.

I'm glad to see you're coming around. =) I'm working as hard as I can to post actual lists of numbers and such that can be easily visually inspected, in order to get more folks to come around.

But the people that think wail is just fine as it is are crazy... Something needs to limit it.

Almost all of us who actually run around with 44+ Necro DC's have expected some kind of nerf to Wail and have no opposition to one. Many of us have proposed various nerfs to Wail. I know of very few people who have stated that they don't think Wail needs any nerf at all, and I know of nobody who has said that they'd be really ticked by some kind of Wail nerf.

It's really just Wail that is the problem. Either cap it the number of kill it can secure like CoD and Undeath to Death are capped, or do something like impose a DC penalty to Wail that depends upon the number of mobs one attempts to Wail. The latter option would allow one to do things like use Arcane Spellsurge from the Magister Destiny to attempt to Wail a larger group of mobs than normal. (The cooldown on this ability is 4 minutes, so it's not like it's overpowering.)

Suppose you try to Wail 15 mobs, and the penalty that comes with this number of mobs is -5. That's a significant penalty. A lot of mobs in that group are going to survive your Wail. But if you activate Arcane Spellsurge, you can cancel that penalty and try to Wail the 15 mobs at your standard DC. (Chances are, you'll still be missing several of them, of course.) You could pull this move off once every four minutes, whereas if you tried to Wail 15 mobs at a -5 penalty ordinarily, you'd run a serious risk of being standing in the middle of a ton of ****ed off critters that didn't die.

[emptysands]

If they deleted the wizard class from DDO and just had bards and sorcs and took away implosion from divines and wail from sorcs the game would be better. Sad to say it but it is true. Do I want that no.

The game would be a boring monotone snooze feist.

[irivan]

I do hate that these threads get put up on the weekend. Almost guaranteeing that Eladrin will not be able to keep up with the massive amounts of replies. I guess I'll throw in my suggestions anyway in hopes that they will get seen....


I cannot express enough how awful I think Punishing players more the better they are is.
Players should NOT be punished for TRing multiple times to build up their Spell Penn.. Their DC's... Accumulating the best gear they can for their Casters....

If you are going to decrease the effectiveness of insta-kill spells. It needs to be Universal. It needs to be FAIR. Someone who casts a Wail of the banshee with a 45DC should get hit the SAME as if a player with a 37DC. Basing the punishment on the mobs save rolls is a travesty.

----------------------
On to the first suggestion.....

Each "Death spell" I cast increments my "Haunting Points" Counter(Name subject to change) Single Target Spells are worth One point. AOE spells are worth more.. Maybe 3 or 5.....

when you hit a designated point total, the debuff THEN takes effect. The debuff could be something like -10 to all your DC's and -10 to all Saving throws due to being in a "Mentally drained" kind of condition.

This condition would last 1 Minute. Continuing to cast insta-kill spells during this timer resets the timer to one minute each cast.

You can also reset the timer by using a "Special ability" that becomes available when you reach your point threshold. This "Special Ability" would be similar to a Silver Flame Potion. When you hit it, the counter is reset, but your caster enters a recuperation mode where your movement is slowed and you cannot cast anything for 20 seconds.

This way, you can choose to deal with the 1 minute debuff.. Cast other spells, and do your best to stay out of harms way spell wise, OR hit the ability and become pretty much useless for 20 seconds.

Either way, your Insta-kill spree is severely hindered.

The point threshold could be adjusted for different difficulties.... easier difficulty settings have a much higher threshold. Epic Elite could be as low as 5 before the debuff kicks in.

I dont know if these points should decrease on their own.... Maybe -1 every 15 seconds

--------------------
Suggestion 2. This one is pretty simple compared to number one.

Again, its based on "punishing" casters universally rather than targeting people who work hard on their builds.

This one is actually VERY similar to Eladrins proposed system, but tweaked to be less punishing.

"The Haunting" happens NOT when you kill mobs.... But when you Cast Instakill spells WHILE on timer from a different Instakill Spell...

For example I cast Wail,..... Kill 10 Mobs.. Woo Hoo! If I wait out my Cool Down before I cast another insta-kill, NO Adverse Effects at All....

However, if I start casting Circle of Death, Finger of Death, Power Word Kill, While on Timer, the Haunting counter starts ticking. Applying the same Debuff Eladrin proposed, but based on casts rather than Mobs Killed.

The big thing I'd like to see Eliminated is the "Your caster is instantly useless for a very long time because you got lucky on a Wail of the Banshee" effect. Getting "TempNerfed' for a couple minutes for casting an effective spell is a horrible design.
---------------------------

I see this "Haunting" as WAY worse than the original "Hard to kill". The idea that the better I am, the more >I< specifically get nerfed is the most depressing change I've ever seen proposed in this game. I cant imagine going into any content where this system is in place on any of my arcane casters.

Very much agree with this post, I personally do not like any suggestion that nerfs the caster in any way, limits their inherit powers, to fix something that is only a problem, because melee characters are offended that they can not kill monsters as fast, especially when we know that End Bosses in most tough missions cannot be solo'd my 99% of the casters out there, thus melees are require to complete the mission.

Attempting to foster cooperation with nerfs and ridiculous game mechanics is terrible game design.

If you want to make it harder for casters make the monsters in question tougher for casters, include more orange names mobs or bosses, buff melee powers by unnerfing vorpal, give some melee PRE's nasty insta kills, maybe legendary dreadnought could have a power where he thumps the floor with a shock wave that causes mobs to sv or die, i dont know. But to take something that is a specific DnD power, and modify it with cool downs is one thing, but to straight up destroy a casters DC's for being successful is pathetic and disgusting.

Suggestion
If you are hell bent on doing this, then at least make it so that Pale Masters other legendary power is significant again. Give them the ability to raise the dead, with significant numbers, and make the mobs they raise equivlent in power to what the mob held in its life with the classic undead bump. It would at least provide some balance to the nerf...Slay the mob, raise it, allow his minions to carry the day with this melee counterparts. This might make it fun enough that I might want to stick around.

[Faent]

You are wrong. My melees are well-built, double or triple TRs with tons of epic gear (gathered by my wizard). They do well in quests. I don't need a caster or a healer to come along to succeed. My wizard is a single TR with ZERO epic gear, and he kills 5x as fast as my melee..

This is redonkulous. Your melees must be gimpy melees from a DPS standpoint. A well-geared DPS melee is not 5X slower than a well geared max necro arcane in Epic DA. And that quest favors the arcane.

No melee can gather up 30 mobs and kill 25 of them with two button clicks... Oh AND have a self-healing aura going on at the same time.

You're confusing things. Now it's the healing we want to object to? A barbarian can gather up 30 mobs and kill them with two button clicks. (They can also self-heal fantastically with SF pots.) Did you mean epic mobs? If so, a caster isn't gathering up 30 epic mobs, tossing Circle (or Symbol of Death) followed by Wail and then wiping out 25 of them with two button clicks. Gathering up 30 epic mobs is also just asking to die. (And Symbol takes a long time to cast.) Just what the heck are you talking about?

[giggiddy]

A cap on wail and increased cool down is the best I've seen without completely nerfing classes who use instakills.

A cap of 6 should suffice. And make the cool down 45 seconds and make implosion te same so mage's and divine's aoe death spells will have the cool down. It will be painful at first but it will not affect our DCs.

Seems fair to me.

[Faent]

If you are hell bent on doing this, then at least make it so that Pale Masters other legendary power is significant again.

This is NOT about Pale Masters only. It's about all Necro-focused Arcanes and EVERYBODY ELSE who relies on instadeath spells (like Clerics and Favored Souls and some weirder builds). I really wish people (including DEVs) would stop focusing on the darn Pale Master. For example, a WF Archmage is JUST AS GOOD at using instadeath spells as a Human Pale Master without a +4 INT tome, which is 99% of the Human Pale Masters out there. And the reason the Human Pale Master has a TINY advantage over the Warforged Archmage is because the Pale Master is HUMAN, and not because he's a Pale Master. Pale Masters do not have some kind of special Necro dominance in virtue of their being Pale Masters.

[Beethoven]

But the people that think wail is just fine as it is are crazy... Something needs to limit it.

It depends what you compare it too.
People here also make it sound that even a max geared Savant could not come even remotely close to what an average Palemaster can achieve. The reality looks a bit different, in fact, you compare Palemaster vs Savant things look relative well balanced. Palemaster will pull ahead if pitted against mobs vulnerable to death effects, they will fall behind against constructs, most undead and everything named.

The problem happens when comparing an epic geared palemaster vs melee, but the same could be said when comparing an epic geared Savant against melee. You neuter palemaster and those players who like casters and who like killing stuff on their caster will simply switch. The only way to fix that is to either nerf quicken or make spell casting trigger a short term vulnerability debuff (taking extra damage or reduced fortification for a few seconds). You do that though and you will have divine casters complain.

Those who choose wizard for their versatility don't need to be fixed since they already do what the Devs stated they want them to do, use a variety of spells.

[EllisDee37]

A cap on wail and increased cool down is the best I've seen without completely nerfing classes who use instakills.

A cap of 6 should suffice. And make the cool down 45 seconds and make implosion te same so mage's and divine's aoe death spells will have the cool down. It will be painful at first but it will not affect our DCs.

Seems fair to me.

I vote for this.

[giggiddy]

I too would love to see smarter AI and better dungeon enemy makeup. I love how Servants of the Overlord is done. Probably te best quest in the game due to smart AI (deathwarding on sight) and random ambushes. High SR and high fort saves on certain mobs.

If the new update has quests like Servants this will be a great update. If not... It doesn't matter what they nerf... People will still trivialize content. If they make smarter AI the game will be fun and no one needs to be nerfed.

[FranOhmsford]

I've skimmed the past 15 pages.

I've seen a few people mention that this goes far beyond Pale Masters.

I just want to say:

THIS EXPANSION IS ONE BIG CLERIC NERF!!!!!!

First - No Hvy Armour based defensive abilities - So Clerics can't get a viable AC/PR {which is actually going to mean something now - Not forgetting the nerfing of Clonks}.

Second - Spellpower changes and nerfing of Metamagics.

Third - Huge Nerf to Implosion/Destruction etc. - So forget Instakills

Turn Undead is already barely viable.

Clerics DPS {apart from DP and BB} is terrible anyway.

We have one PrE - Heavily set up for Healing in the middle of the melee {How we're going to be able to do this with no AC/PR, no Implosion, less dmg on Blade Barrier... I have no idea}.

I guess we now know that the devs think we should all be healbots and nothing else.

Thanks Devs, Thanks a lot.

[emptysands]

1. It punishes better geared players. I dislike this aspect the most. I don't want a system that regresses the outliers to a mean. Those people spent a lot of work and effort and sometimes sacrificed much more than other players in terms of build decisions and shouldn't be punished for that.

I agree, this why I dislike this whole discussion.

Additional saves versus death magic, not a full fort save increase as we don't want to hurt other things based off fort saves like stunning etc.

Multiple target kill spells capped. Wail and cod should have capped targets. Undeath to death already has a 4 target cap why not have cod and wail do the same.

Maybe just a DC penalty for number of mobs? So -1DC for each mob or -2DC in Elite Epic? So 5 mobs in Elite Epic with autofail on 50, will likely have a 50% survival rate.

[GermanicusMaximus]

And as it was pointed out in another thread, the longer it takes things to die and the fewer tools we have at our disposal to clear mobs, the more pressure it puts on divines. Divines are already pug-shy. Adding this and taking away some of their tools will make that even worse.

As someone who's main toon is a cleric, I have to agree. Nerfing the PMs in my party, and (potentially) nerfing my insta-kills as well, really seems pointless. The fact that we are nerfing arcanes merely so melees can feel better about themselves just adds insult to injury.

Why would I want to join a PUG run full of melee toons, who lobbied to nerf arcane and divine offensive capability, just so I could work even harder to keep them healed while they run off in search of the ego stroking to which they feel entitled?

The expansion is full of caster nerfing, and its there to a large extent because people playing melee toons lobbied for it. Once the realization of what is happening sinks in, it is going to be incredibly divisive to the community.

[gravestones]

Yep, I'd be fine with that...

With more and more reflection, I'm thinking Haunting is a bad idea.

But the people that think wail is just fine as it is are crazy... Something needs to limit it.

Just like WoPs got nerfed for good reason... Just like perches where the mobs can't hit you keep getting removed for good reason... When something lets you kill with zero danger, it's too powerful...

Wail is too much of an easy button... Or maybe I should say, Wail combined with warforged/palemaster self-healing is too much of an easy button.

Zero skill. You (and I) kill too easy... I accepted the WoP nerf. I accept some kind of Wail nerf.

I'm now AGAINST the Haunting and Hard-to-kill because they affect single target insta-kill like FoD and that's not a problem.

But I am for some kind of wail nerf.

Thrudh:

I can see where you are coming from. However at the same time, Wail of the Banshee is SUPPOSED to be one of the most potent and terrible spells a wizard can cast. It is a level 9 arcane spell afterall. In D&D lore, level 9 spells surpass any other class ability in terms of raw power and effect. In DDO, translating something like that is an imperfect art.

At the end-game, arcanes are indeed more powerful than the melee whom they cowered behind at the earlier levels. This progression and transition are as much a part of the fantasy genre as the genre itself. Think about Raistlin and Caramon from the Dragonlance Saga. Think about Elminster of the Forgotten Realms, or Mordenkainen of Greyhawk.

Whether one likes it or not, spell casters are supposed to surpass the martial classes in terms of raw power.

[Faent]

Those who choose wizard for their versatility don't need to be fixed since they already do what the Devs stated they want them to do, use a variety of spells.

Yes they do use a variety of spells. I haven't soloed an epic to completion yet without using cheese tactics (like pulling bosses into traps), but I can solo most of the few epics I've tried without using cheese tactics. And I am sure as heck not relying only on my 44 Necro DC spells. I primarily use Web, Disco, Hypno, Ice Storm, Wall of Fire, Acid Rain, Undeath to Death, Halt Undead, Symbol of Death, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, Circle of Death, Niac's Biting Cold, Eladar's Electric Surge, Polar Ray, Disintegrate, Black Dragon Bolt, Reconstruct Scrolls, Reconstruct, Crushing Despair and a host of clickies (Litany, around six ToD belts, the Ornamented Dagger, etc...). If I tried to rely upon only (or even primarily) upon instadeath spells, I would epically and royally FAIL in ANY attempt to solo an epic quest.

[phalaeo]

All spells that cause death preventable by deathblock are being affected here. That's what death magic is not necromancy. Necromancy is a school of magic that includes death magic spells but also many non death magic spells.

This effects PK, Implosion, banishment, power word kill(not really as no save but it's going to cause a debuff.)

It does not affect Trap the soul as it doesn't involve killing the mob.

Banish does not involve killing a mob (if you want to get technical)

And the devs have not said whether it will involve spells of the school Necromancy, or all "insta-kill" spells. Or in the case of Banishment, "insta-send-back-to-their-plane-of-existence"

[Jitty]

I see a trend forming that I hope isn't lost on people reading this thread.
The first posts by many people are along the lines of "well this is better than the first idea" (I'm not claiming this is a universal opinion)
Then later those same people come back to the thread and say "the more I think about it the worse this idea is"

There are many situations in the game where an effect like haunting would cripple raids and quests alike to the point of failure. As people think of these specific situations and fail to think of a way for a party to get around them without death spells (meaning more than one spell) their opinions are galvanized.

I hope this trend is picked up on by developers

[Faent]

I see a trend forming that I hope isn't lost on people reading this thread. The first posts by many people are along the lines of "well this is better than the first idea" (I'm not claiming this is a universal opinion) Then later those same people come back to the thread and say "the more I think about it the worse this idea is"

This is because most people didn't understand the idea as originally presented. And many of those who did understand it didn't immediately see its full implications. This is an insanely complicated attempt to solve a fairly minor problem, and it's hard to work through all its details and implications immediately. It also sounded cool. And it was presented after one of the stupidest ideas ever, making it more likely that folks who give it the ok just because it wasn't that former idiotic idea.

This is fairly consistent with Turbine's recent strategy. They are introducing radical and wildly complicated changes to the game which require folks to do a lot of miserable math to even begin to appreciate the implications and side effects of. Most folks aren't going to spend the time to try to understand the freakishly complicated changes, and then, the folks that do spend that time have to spend more time thinking about all the implications and side effects of such changes (and that's very difficult). One has to wonder if Turbine did any of this thinking themselves.