Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[Faent]

The funny thing is a well built melee isn't so far behind wizards in being able to kill 'trash' mobs as everyone thinks, and lets face it this change is only affecting trash mobs.

This is a fact. There just aren't many of those well built melees. As I posted elsewhere, this reduces a necro arcane's instakill ability at max DC to 4 instakills/minute, which is a joke.

It's worth noting that you can estimate the cap on instakills per/minute this change imposes. It's easy to calculate the number of instakills per minute you can acheive at your max Necro DC. It's one every fifteen seconds. You can get higher than this by trying to cast at lower than your max Necro DC. It's hard to calculate this, but I estimate that with a lot of effort and timing, you could get it down to one every ten seconds. The higher your DC, the better you can operate at sub-optimal DC levels, but it's not easy.

Thus Eladrin's proposal is effectively imposing a cap on the amount of instakills a well-geared arcane can generate at around something like six per minute. It's going to be more like four per minute for most players. That sounds like Necromancy, doesn't it?

It's a gutting of Necromancy to appease poorly built melees who can't DPS anything and wind up getting sniped by someone who actually built a toon well. It's also a gutting of wizard's DPS.

[Nines9]

Your explanation doesn't really explain, how using 400 SP is more optimal than using 50. Or why It's optimal to let monsters live and hit you and your party instead of just killing them.

Did you not catch the memo? Not about the using extra sp or whatever, but that this is basically so melee can get kills, because that's apparently "challenging". There are obviously few things more challenging then imp sunder/stunning blow/auto attack. Let's not just adjust the mobs or the melee to balance, let's make it more challenging to the necro casters.

Wail of the Banshee: You emit a terrible scream creating an area of effect based on yourself that kills enemy creatures that hear it. Each creature who makes a successful fortitude save negates death and instead results in them suffering horribly, taking 2d6 per caster level in negative energy damage. Casting this grants a 50% chance you will take 1000+ falling damage.

Circle of Death: Rains dark energy into an area. Living Creatures are subject to a death effect; getting a reflex save and then a fortitude save to avoid death. Targets who succeed against the reflex save suffer no ill effect, but creatures who succeed on the fortitude save still suffer 1d4 negative levels. Casting this grants a 50% chance you will become stuck inside of scenery, and a 25% chance you are quickly evacuated to your bind point.

You see those aren't bugs in the current game, they're just features that haven't been fully utilized yet. Adding more complex systems into the game is in no way going to create more bugs, just more features.

We can't simply fix it with say +5/+10 (epic hard/elite) stacking fort saves for mobs, because that would be too challenging for the poor melee who needs to keep his kill count high. And we can't simply make them stacking saves against death spells, as that's not complicated enough, thereby not having a high probability of creating new "features". We really just need a way to fix it, you know, like you fix a leaking water pipe with a bulldozer.

Meanwhile I'll just run in with my sorc, nuke the entire room with a few spells, then point at the melee and say "Haha! Nooooo auto-attack for ju!", then wave at the Pm as he's taking a 3min coffee break waiting for his debuff to go away.

[Urjak]

I think you missed the part about Haunting been applied at all levels of the game on all difficulties, so they replaced Hard to Kill on hard/elite Epic by nerfing heroics AND epics...

aw yeah that part i actually missed ... that sucks :/ ... imo this should be an epic hard/elite only thing :/

[voodoogroves]

And again ... if certain spells are the problem, freaking adjust those spells. Don't reinvent the whole system.

Here's another wacky thought ... don't change the cooldown on wail, but increase the SP cost.



Small changes can be made that have the desired result (unless the actual desired result is to play around with completely new mechanics).

[DeafeningWhisper]

And again ... if certain spells are the problem, freaking adjust those spells. Don't reinvent the whole system.

Here's another wacky thought ... don't change the cooldown on wail, but increase the SP cost.



Small changes can be made that have the desired result (unless the actual desired result is to play around with completely new mechanics).

But, but, square wheels are so cool!

[Cadveen]

Wow..your post really gets lost on here in seconds. My last one had some good ideas, back to being irrate.

The more I think about it, it feels like this too me:

Say me, higher end pale master and a newly rolled palemaster walk into a quest.

We go up to a group of mobs and I kill seven and he is able to successfully kill one.

I am now at a negative 14 to my dcs and he is barely affected. SO now this palemaster who was just rolled up yesterday and advanced with an experience stone will be more effective the rest of the quest than someone who has been playing a palemaster since it came out with top tiered gear.

Essentially, this MMO is doing something that no other MMO has done in the history of MMOs. It will be punishing people for advancing their characters.

[Khthonic]

1) Cap haunting at -6 DC and 90 seconds. Increment penalties at -1dc per haunting effect.
2) Haunting should also benefit us. For every Haunting effect, a universal stacking spell power boost should be given (that hopefully also effects our necrotic bolt & blast). Why? Because a PM should not be haunted by anything. Thats like saying whenever a ranger uses manyshot, they become confused about how to use a bow for 1 minute and all their subsequent attacks take a penalty. So as the spirits of the dead torment the necromancer, he/she gains a boost to spell power.

This would not only be a more reasonable solution (considering -10 DC is game breaking for a PM) but also benefit the class in a logical way. The more things I kill with death spells, the more souls I have to fuel my damage spells. It means my damage is increased and my aura heals me for more.

[Autolycus]

As I stated it is less unbalanced than Wail/CoD

I guess I run with too many 40+ dc Evoker FVSs.

I felt the context of the nerf was intended to include ubercasters with multiple past lives specifically built for the multi target Instakill spells. I apologize if I misread that. As I stated I'm not fully read on this thread and don't intend to be.

If you could point me to the posts where FVS's imploding 6 or 7 Drow in epic Von3 was intended to be left out of this nerf, or explain to me how that is well balanced with respect to Melee's i would be appreciative.

How do those FVS's implode 6 or 7 monsters?

According to the wiki:

You create a destructive resonance field around yourself that lasts 10 seconds. Every 2 seconds, the aura causes one nearby corporeal enemy to collapse in upon themselves and die. Or upon a successfull fortitude save, it deals 2d3+6 damage per caster level every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. No initial tic, you get a total of five tics, one after 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 seconds.

So, Implosion has a chance to kill 1 enemy every 2 seconds up to a total of 5 enemies. Each enemy gets a saving throw as well as having to penetrate their Spell Resistance. The cooldown is 60 seconds.

I believe the complaint/concern was that casters clear entire rooms/dungeons with insta-death spells. Most posts I've read indicate the concern is with PMs casting Wail and CoD. Implosion has a cap of 5 monsters and a 60 second cooldown whereas Wail has no cap and a 30 second cooldown.

As far as balance goes, I don't know how much damage a ubermelee does in 60 seconds, but I'm sure it's quite a bit and someone has calculated it. But come on, Implosion is a 9th level spell, top of the line, it should do more damage than a lot of axe swings.

[Kalanikila]

The insta-kills / haunting changes are excellent ideas. Casters switching from "lol herp derp" two button mass destruction to occasional two button mass destruction then using their under used bag of tools in between will be great for the game. Most wizards / sorcs simply do not use even a fraction of their tool set because "lol herp derp" insta kills are too efficient. Casters two biggest dps spells in a group with 3 melee are haste and hold .. it will be nice to see those used more effectively in the expansion.

All of the changes I've seen so far for the expansion are excellent ideas. Here's hoping they are implemented well.

[BruceTheHoon]

We're talking about a linear scale ... core D&D basic concept.

You're assuming I think the mechanics of the "diminishing returns" AC are good too and accept that.

They aren't. In that case, I think you'll find I and many others would rather see the range of mob to hit increased to a wider amount, thus making a wider range of AC useful.


I'm sorry you can't see my perspective. Making things actually "harder" numerically on Elite Epic 25 than 15 is FINE.

I don't care if the caster who's geared for epic 25 can own the devils in VoD normal. I do not see a problem with that at all.



I'm a proponent of using or extending existing mechanics. Plenty of spells offer bonuses / penalties based on number of targets in the area to be affected; that would work fine and prohibit mass wails. If only a few spells are a problem, MODIFY THOSE.

I get it, we all like to invent new things. Sometimes you need completely new things. Sometimes though, you may be ignoring simpler answers.

I'm not assuming that you like the new AC system. The new AC system is completely irrelevant here. And no, we are not talking about a linear scale but of a compositum of 3 linear scales. This is the core basic D&D concept, that proved to not scale well, since the middle part - the ramp - becomes almost vertical in normalized scale creating all the problems you can read about the old AC system.

So no, I still don't get, how permanently increasing DCs is better than increasing them for a minute or so.

I don't quite understand what you are trying to imply by saying "modify those [problematic spells]".
According to Eladrin's post, they are doing exactly that. Modifying spells they deem problematic. CC, nukes, DoTs aren't being touched.

But at least I agree, that heroic levels should not be changed. Epic hard and elite are the ones that should be targeted here, because people going in should expect them to be hard and elite. Even insta-killers.

[dubyprime]

So 5 monsters, sorry I made a mistake.

Wail is a 9th level spell. Each enemy gets a save against Wail. Wail has to roll SR.
Max achievable spell pen for a wizard is only +1 above a FVS I believe.
Implosion can effect a wider range of monsters. Not that it matters.

For the third time I will say it. Implosion is by far more fairly balanced than Wail or circle of death.
I have never disagreed with this point.

My point was If AoE instakill is the problem, address AoE instakills, not all Instakills.

How do those FVS's implode 6 or 7 monsters?

According to the wiki:

You create a destructive resonance field around yourself that lasts 10 seconds. Every 2 seconds, the aura causes one nearby corporeal enemy to collapse in upon themselves and die. Or upon a successfull fortitude save, it deals 2d3+6 damage per caster level every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. No initial tic, you get a total of five tics, one after 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 seconds.

So, Implosion has a chance to kill 1 enemy every 2 seconds up to a total of 5 enemies. Each enemy gets a saving throw as well as having to penetrate their Spell Resistance. The cooldown is 60 seconds.

I believe the complaint/concern was that casters clear entire rooms/dungeons with insta-death spells. Most posts I've read indicate the concern is with PMs casting Wail and CoD. Implosion has a cap of 5 monsters and a 60 second cooldown whereas Wail has no cap and a 30 second cooldown.

As far as balance goes, I don't know how much damage a ubermelee does in 60 seconds, but I'm sure it's quite a bit and someone has calculated it. But come on, Implosion is a 9th level spell, top of the line, it should do more damage than a lot of axe swings.

[Vordax]

Casters two biggest dps spells in a group with 3 melee are haste and hold .. it will be nice to see those used more effectively in the expansion.

If this is how you like to play your wizard (which I doubt you have one), have fun. I will be TR'ing to sorc if this change goes through. Did the hold-haste-bot crαp before, didn't like it.

[alexdesuu]

The idea that killing something would be "haunting" any caster who focuses on death is just kinda laughable. So are the melee toons running around wielding Terror going to be affected by this debuff?


If the goal is to have everyone in a party participate in a quest, then design quests so cooperation is essential.

[eris2323]

The insta-kills / haunting changes are excellent ideas. Casters switching from "lol herp derp" two button mass destruction to occasional two button mass destruction then using their under used bag of tools in between will be great for the game. Most wizards / sorcs simply do not use even a fraction of their tool set because "lol herp derp" insta kills are too efficient. Casters two biggest dps spells in a group with 3 melee are haste and hold .. it will be nice to see those used more effectively in the expansion.

All of the changes I've seen so far for the expansion are excellent ideas. Here's hoping they are implemented well.

I refuse to be your melee hastebot or holdbot. Craft your own haste item, if you need one that bad.

My character does not exist to serve yours.

[Habreno]

So 5 monsters, sorry I made a mistake.

Wail is a 9th level spell. Each enemy gets a save against Wail. Wail has to roll SR.
Max achievable spell pen for a wizard is only +1 above a FVS I believe.
Implosion can effect a wider range of monsters. Not that it matters.

For the third time I will say it. Implosion is by far more fairly balanced than Wail or circle of death.
I have never disagreed with this point.

My point was If AoE instakill is the problem, address AoE instakills, not all Instakills.

If Implosion is balanced, then nerf Wail.

Oh wait, can't do that. All the pale masters would complain.


This is the crux of the problem.




I do not mind the Haunted debuff coming out IF divines had a negation method. A Cleric or Favored Soul would be protected by holy magic, and thus take 50% less stacks than he or she should. In other words, when a Cleric would take a debuff, they do not; when they would take two debuffs, they only take one. At four instakills, the divine takes only 2 debuffs. This is to balance both the fact that Divines will have lower DC's since WIS is much harder to raise than INT AND Wizards will get higher DC's than divines through their Magister PrE.

Druids would take 66% of the stacks. If a Druid takes 2 stacks, it would only have one. At the third stack, it gains a second.

Sorcerers, since their DC's will be lower, will also have partial immunity to the effect, taking only 80% of the stacks.

Wizards, with no Charisma to either convince the enemy they are not a threat or the Wisdom to negate the debuff, would take the full debuff.



Thus:

Clr/Soul: 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5(stacks on the debuff)
Druid: 1,1,2,3,3,4,5,5,6,7
Sorc: 1,2,2,3,4,5,6,6,7,8
Wizard: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Making this change both enables the benefit to be implemented successfully to the point it needs to be and still fails to heavily effect the classes it does not need to (Divines, and to a lesser extent, Sorcs and Druids)

[Kalanikila]

I refuse to be your melee hastebot or holdbot. Craft your own haste item, if you need one that bad.

My character does not exist to serve yours.

None of the changes force you to play your toon like a healbot type player plays a cleric. All the advice to "healbot" type clerics is pretty much the same " learn to use your entire tool set" .... so frankly that would be my advice to your wizzie/sorc.

[munificence]

None of the changes force you to play your toon like a healbot type player plays a cleric. All the advice to "healbot" type clerics is pretty much the same " learn to use your entire tool set" .... so frankly that would be my advice to your wizzie/sorc.

Wow, what a perceptive point. Nerfing an entire prestige class by eviscerating all of its most powerful abilities doesn't force a change in playstyle... /sarcasm

[GermanicusMaximus]

How do those FVS's implode 6 or 7 monsters?

According to the wiki:

You create a destructive resonance field around yourself that lasts 10 seconds. Every 2 seconds, the aura causes one nearby corporeal enemy to collapse in upon themselves and die. Or upon a successfull fortitude save, it deals 2d3+6 damage per caster level every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. No initial tic, you get a total of five tics, one after 2, 4, 6, 8 and 10 seconds.

So, Implosion has a chance to kill 1 enemy every 2 seconds up to a total of 5 enemies. Each enemy gets a saving throw as well as having to penetrate their Spell Resistance. The cooldown is 60 seconds.

I believe the complaint/concern was that casters clear entire rooms/dungeons with insta-death spells. Most posts I've read indicate the concern is with PMs casting Wail and CoD. Implosion has a cap of 5 monsters and a 60 second cooldown whereas Wail has no cap and a 30 second cooldown.

As far as balance goes, I don't know how much damage a ubermelee does in 60 seconds, but I'm sure it's quite a bit and someone has calculated it. But come on, Implosion is a 9th level spell, top of the line, it should do more damage than a lot of axe swings.

Well, you would certainly think so, given that Implosion cost spell points, a finite commodity, while the axe swings cost nothing at all.

[voodoogroves]

I'm not assuming that you like the new AC system. The new AC system is completely irrelevant here. And no, we are not talking about a linear scale but of a compositum of 3 linear scales. This is the core basic D&D concept, that proved to not scale well, since the middle part - the ramp - becomes almost vertical in normalized scale creating all the problems you can read about the old AC system.

Linear is linear; widening the range is STILL linear, right?

I don't quite understand what you are trying to imply by saying "modify those [problematic spells]".
According to Eladrin's post, they are doing exactly that. Modifying spells they deem problematic. CC, nukes, DoTs aren't being touched.

Modifying the existing spell characteristics (say, cool down, SP cost, etc.) is one thing. Creating a new mechanic called "scary clowns" and then applying that mechanic to a subset of spells may seem like it's just modifying the spells, but really it's also introducing the "scary clown" mechanic.

Maybe that distinction is too nuanced. The spell has a number of characteristics. Modify those to bring it in line is one path ... the other is to introduce some sort of clown control and additional characteristics.

You may not see the difference; to me it's pretty stark but I'll grant you there may be some nuance for others.

But at least I agree, that heroic levels should not be changed. Epic hard and elite are the ones that should be targeted here, because people going in should expect them to be hard and elite. Even insta-killers.

Absolutely.

I mean, I'm not disagreeing those things need an adjustment. They do. But I disagree fundamentally on the "how"

- I don't think they need as much of an adjustment as some, because I don't think the problem is quite as widespread as some folks seem to think (as far as instakills).
- I don't think they need as much of an adjustment as some, because I believe what may look like small changes can have big impacts ... and often larger changes in situations like this can essentially make the tactic impractical so as to be no longer even a realistic option ... and then this limits our build and play choices (effectively-speaking, kinda like how folks thought about running a fire savant in end game raids).
- I think adjustments to the existing characteristics and mechanics are preferable to introducing completely new systems.
- I think big changes are prone to affect other areas, and before anyone puts those in I'd like to understand the impacts to everything else ... other instakills (monk, assassin, etc.), which spells, how it works *truly*, how this may change heroic hard/elite, which mobs does it really effect (are there CR <20 mobs that would be unaffected), etc.

Huge potential to cause other problems, make a play style essentially unplayable or in fact not reward those who put in the gear, etc.

Why do all that if we up the DC on instakills in hard / elite (with a bonus to fort saves vs spells), change the cool down, increase the SP cost, give a save bonus to the targets based on the number of folks who are in the AOE (as other spells do) or have (not all) but mobs have a random chance to spawn with immunity (increasing by level and difficulty).

All of those essentially use existing mechanics and just change the parameters. I'm sure there are more.

[Kalanikila]

Wow, what a perceptive point. Nerfing an entire prestige class by eviscerating all of its most powerful abilities doesn't force a change in playstyle... /sarcasm

If by "change in playstyle" you mean you'd have to use more than two buttons then fine it's a change in play style. If by "eviscerating" you mean not being able to spam two buttons then fine. Casters have the biggest toolsets in the game .. and the least amount of actually used tools .. heck my paladin has to press more buttons than my PM does in current content.