Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[GermanicusMaximus]

If Implosion is balanced, then nerf Wail.

Oh wait, can't do that. All the pale masters would complain.


This is the crux of the problem.




I do not mind the Haunted debuff coming out IF divines had a negation method. A Cleric or Favored Soul would be protected by holy magic, and thus take 50% less stacks than he or she should. In other words, when a Cleric would take a debuff, they do not; when they would take two debuffs, they only take one. At four instakills, the divine takes only 2 debuffs. This is to balance both the fact that Divines will have lower DC's since WIS is much harder to raise than INT AND Wizards will get higher DC's than divines through their Magister PrE.

Druids would take 66% of the stacks. If a Druid takes 2 stacks, it would only have one. At the third stack, it gains a second.

Sorcerers, since their DC's will be lower, will also have partial immunity to the effect, taking only 80% of the stacks.

Wizards, with no Charisma to either convince the enemy they are not a threat or the Wisdom to negate the debuff, would take the full debuff.



Thus:

Clr/Soul: 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5(stacks on the debuff)
Druid: 1,1,2,3,3,4,5,5,6,7
Sorc: 1,2,2,3,4,5,6,6,7,8
Wizard: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10

Making this change both enables the benefit to be implemented successfully to the point it needs to be and still fails to heavily effect the classes it does not need to (Divines, and to a lesser extent, Sorcs and Druids)

I think that if we are going to start applying debuffs to a divine caster for killing a max of 5 mobs per minute, then we really do need to start applying a similiar debuff to every toon in the game, including melee.

[barraker]

If by "change in playstyle" you mean you'd have to use more than two buttons then fine it's a change in play style. If by "eviscerating" you mean not being able to spam two buttons then fine. Casters have the biggest toolsets in the game .. and the least amount of actually used tools .. heck my paladin has to press more buttons than my PM does in current content.

I have no idea how you play your pale master with three buttons when i play with 16 bars.

[Stormdum]

Give epic drow SPELL RESISTANCE, leave epics as is alone. See how it pans out between now and the enhancement revamp.
[/b] pans out?

They do have spell resistance. Drow Priestesses of Lloth have a 54 SR on Epic Elite in some quests.

[dubyprime]

If Implosion is balanced, then nerf Wail.
Oh wait, can't do that. All the pale masters would complain.

This is the crux of the problem.

My point was nerf the spells that are the problem, not everything else.

Pale masters are already complaining, I don't see how allowing finger to still work would make them complain more.

... This is to balance both the fact that Divines will have lower DC's since WIS is much harder to raise than INT AND Wizards will get higher DC's than divines through their Magister PrE.

How is Wis harder to raise? Wizards get capstone, clerics get alchemical. There is a +7wis item and +7 int items, both get littany. Drow give wizards +2int. So 1 to DCS.
Epic destinies are a valid point, so are PREs.

Both Haunting and Hard to Kill are horrible ideas. I don't think this nerf is needed. The devs seem to, so I was suggesting and alternative frame of mind that would effect fewer spells.

I apologize to anyone who was bothered by my attempt to add constructive comments.

[Faent]

If by "change in playstyle" you mean you'd have to use more than two buttons then fine it's a change in play style. If by "eviscerating" you mean not being able to spam two buttons then fine. Casters have the biggest toolsets in the game .. and the least amount of actually used tools .. heck my paladin has to press more buttons than my PM does in current content.

I think the only thing that says anything about is your PM.

[munificence]

I have no idea how you play your pale master with three buttons when i play with 16 bars.

He doesn't, he's just trolling. I have more spells/abilities hotkeyed on my wizard than all of my melee characters combined. I have 26 spells hotkeyed, and I'm always swapping them in and out because I need fast access to some other spell. Speaking of "3 buttons" My TWF kensai uses one bar. One. All he clicks is Imp Sunder, trip, stunning blow, damage boost, speed boost, and power surge. So 6 abilities on my fighter's hotbar versus 26 on my wizard.

Yeah, playing a necro wiz is just "easy mode." /rolleyes

[Tid12]

He doesn't, he's just trolling. I have more spells/abilities hotkeyed on my wizard than all of my melee characters combined. I have 26 spells hotkeyed, and I'm always swapping them in and out because I need fast access to some other spell. Speaking of "3 buttons" My TWF kensai uses one bar. One. All he clicks is Imp Sunder, trip, stunning blow, damage boost, speed boost, and power surge. So 6 abilities on my fighter's hotbar versus 26 on my wizard.

Yeah, playing a necro wiz is just "easy mode." /rolleyes

That's why people are saying bravo to turbine.

"One Spell to rule them all, one Spell to find them, one Spell to bring them all and in the darkness bind them"

[Postumus]

My guess is that you and those who are advocating for this change simply don't understand how it works. You can see a post that will help you understand better how it works, with some analysis, here:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...57&postcount=1

I am not saying that Wail/Circle shouldn't be changed. In fact, I proposed a change in the original thread, as did many others. I'm saying that Eladrin's proposed change is a complete and total gutting of Necromancy, which it is. Most wizards will have four instakill opportunities per minute, and some of the best will have up to six or so. All single-target, effectively. The rest of the time, they play hage/hold bots and pretend they are sorcerers.

Great analysis. Good points.

[Postumus]

At first I thought this idea was better than hard to kill. The more I think about it, though, the worse it becomes.

I'll go ahead and say that this idea is worse than dungeon alert, worse than the swing speed nerf, worse than the wing nerf and worse than the nerf to haste. It is unnecessarily complicated and punitive towards players with high dc's. There is no hard cap or DR curve and it reeks of "giving us and idea that you knew that we'd hate, after giving us an idea that you knew we would hate even more," which I, for one, am absolutely sick of.

Please stop it alread with the major game mechanic alterations and give us minor tweaks, like maximum target caps on spells.

This is also how I feel. this Haunting idea is even worse. Back to the drawing board devs!

[Habreno]

My point was nerf the spells that are the problem, not everything else.

Pale masters are already complaining, I don't see how allowing finger to still work would make them complain more.



How is Wis harder to raise? Wizards get capstone, clerics get alchemical. There is a +7wis item and +7 int items, both get littany. Drow give wizards +2int. So 1 to DCS.
Epic destinies are a valid point, so are PREs.

Both Haunting and Hard to Kill are horrible ideas. I don't think this nerf is needed. The devs seem to, so I was suggesting and alternative frame of mind that would effect fewer spells.

I apologize to anyone who was bothered by my attempt to add constructive comments.

Well, a Wizard who really wants can get +3 Alchemical like Clerics can. It's just not a permenent buff.

[Kalanikila]

I have no idea how you play your pale master with three buttons when i play with 16 bars.

And which two buttons on those 16 bars are being targeted by these changes to ( only ) two levels of epic difficulty? It's hyperbole to say PM's are being "eviscerated" by installing a debuff that's on a cooldown .. so you can only AE insta kill reliably 5 times per minute instead of doing it every few seconds, that's FAR from class breaking.

Pretend until you are blue in the face that PM's will be "broken" by these changes ... I contend these ( and the other ) changes are good for the game.

[Socio]

Maybe we could use another debuff to and call it muscle exhaustion

Every time a melee swings and kills something or uses any tactical feat they get a 15 second stacking penalty to combat related dc's, attack speed, and drop in damage.

I just watch those infinitely powered lawn mowers haste boosting and sprint boosting ahead chopping through quests, one hitting every thing, or making them completely immobile and don't cost them a thing as they have infinite damage capabilities compared to my limited Sp pool *Sadface*

I mean in a game of resource management and teamwork seems having such a power as infinite damage seems to trivialize content and i know if i swing a axe around in real life I feel pretty tired after a few go's with it

So now with Haunting and muscle exhaustion we can all hang out and let our debuffs cool down and talk about the weather :3



Socio

[Faent]

And which two buttons on those 16 bars are being targeted by these changes to ( only ) two levels of epic difficulty?

Please stop being so misinformed. Haunting is proposed as a change made to the ENTIRE GAME, not just to Epic Hard and Epic Elite.

It's hyperbole to say PM's are being "eviscerated" by installing a debuff that's on a cooldown .. so you can only AE insta kill reliably 5 times per minute instead of doing it every few seconds, that's FAR from class breaking.

This is incorrect. Both Circle/Wail will be worthless as AoE instakills. Nobody will ever cast them as AoE's. Most Necro arcanes will be reduced to about four to six single-target instakills per minute. The rest of the time they will spend pretending to be a weak sorcerer along with tossing Mass Holds (which will also help boost their Acid Rain/Ice Storm damage). The kind of massive reduction in the killing power of a Necro arcane which Haunting generates is mind-bogglingly atonishing. It will put Necro arcanes well below both melees and sorcerers.

Pretend until you are blue in the face that PM's will be "broken" by these changes ... I contend these ( and the other ) changes are good for the game.

You don't even understand them, so you're in no position to claim they are good for the game.

[Ungood]

Bah this nerf is no worse then that nerf they did to Vorpal/Disruption/Banishing.

However, If the Casters get to whine to the point of their spells working, I want to see that moronic 1000 HP cap that was put on vorpal weapons removed! Have it so any mobs can get it's head copped off and DIE! Like it should be doing! Regardless of how many HP it has!

[Scraap]

Please stop being so misinformed. Haunting is proposed as a change made to the ENTIRE GAME, not just to Epic Hard and Epic Elite.

I do have to say, I find it more than a little amusing that once folks twig to the fact that 'those guys over there' aren't the only one's getting hit, there's typically more objection. Says something about the proposal when the majority of folks that like it are the ones that think they won't have to deal with it.

[Scraap]

Bah this nerf is no worse then that nerf they did to Vorpal/Disruption/Banishing.

However, If the Casters get to whine to the point of their spells working, I want to see that moronic 1000 HP cap that was put on vorpal weapons removed! Have it so any mobs can get it's head copped off and DIE! Like it should be doing! Regardless of how many HP it has!

Agreed, believe it or not. The whole issue stems from 'challenge' being introduced by an unreasonable amount of hitpoints for mobs. Otherwise, no one would really *care* if it takes an extra second or three.

[Hokiewa]

And which two buttons on those 16 bars are being targeted by these changes to ( only ) two levels of epic difficulty? It's hyperbole to say PM's are being "eviscerated" by installing a debuff that's on a cooldown .. so you can only AE insta kill reliably 5 times per minute instead of doing it every few seconds, that's FAR from class breaking.

Pretend until you are blue in the face that PM's will be "broken" by these changes ... I contend these ( and the other ) changes are good for the game.

Clearly you have not read the changes. Go back, read them, then come back and check yourself.

Let's be clear minded and have a full understanding of the change. Alt account....lmao...

[Brattyone]

I just don't get it. Why punish the larger population for something the uber elite does? I don't get that reasoning. And for that matter, you (devs) should not be punishing ANY player for things that they happen to do well. Those who specialize in necromancy spells SHOULD be good at necromancy spells. I mean otherwise, what's the point? And you say you don't want to penalize the low to mid dc players but how does this not accomplish that when you're affecting this change game wide where a lot of low to mid dc players are? Also, what about all the players specializing in death spells who like to solo? You're basically crippling their ability to do so. Yes, they have other spells but seriously....they SPECIALIZED in death spells. I'm not one who is usually a doooom sayer....I tend to think optimistically. But this idea seems like crazy talk, and I have to wonder if the devs sit around and have contests to see who can come up with the craziest idea ever.

[Ungood]

I do have to say, I find it more than a little amusing that once folks twig to the fact that 'those guys over there' aren't the only one's getting hit, there's typically more objection. Says something about the proposal when the majority of folks that like it are the ones that think they won't have to deal with it.

Not really. I have a PM, Second life in fact, and I am wholly apathetic about this change to be honest.

In fact, when they did the spell pass which pretty much took my evocation spec WF AM out back and brutalized it, without even buying me a drink in the process, from the opening nerf to FW to the subsequent nerf to evocation SLA's I was infuriated beyond words, several months later when I could bring myself to play a caster again, I TRed into a PM. Well, the second life up taught me something, and that was not to focus too much on thing, and play out a bit on my spells.

So, If you use a dozen spells constantly and all that jazz, you should not even feel the effects of this change, if you are a one trick pony caster like I used to be with FW, this change will crush you.

With that, the truth is, it's All in the player, and I'll say that again, it's All in the Player.

[Grace_ana]

And as it was pointed out in another thread, the longer it takes things to die and the fewer tools we have at our disposal to clear mobs, the more pressure it puts on divines. Divines are already pug-shy. Adding this and taking away some of their tools will make that even worse.