Hard to Kill --> Haunting

[voodoogroves]

No, it's not a great mechanics. It's the same mechanics as the former AC and you can take a look at what people think is wrong with that in a rather lengthy 'Let's Talk' thread. Great for table play, but doesn't scale well with the numbers in DDO.

I can not comprehend, how one can think that increasing the DCs premanently is a better solution than increasing the DCs for a minute or so.

We're talking about a linear scale ... core D&D basic concept.

You're assuming I think the mechanics of the "diminishing returns" AC are good too and accept that.

They aren't. In that case, I think you'll find I and many others would rather see the range of mob to hit increased to a wider amount, thus making a wider range of AC useful.


I'm sorry you can't see my perspective. Making things actually "harder" numerically on Elite Epic 25 than 15 is FINE.

I don't care if the caster who's geared for epic 25 can own the devils in VoD normal. I do not see a problem with that at all.



I'm a proponent of using or extending existing mechanics. Plenty of spells offer bonuses / penalties based on number of targets in the area to be affected; that would work fine and prohibit mass wails. If only a few spells are a problem, MODIFY THOSE.

I get it, we all like to invent new things. Sometimes you need completely new things. Sometimes though, you may be ignoring simpler answers.

[Grace_ana]

There is no logic to these arguments against PMs.

So you're mad a PM can walk through and kill stuff solo faster than a melee. Okay. Well, then I am angry that a fighter, barb, or monk can do the same compared to my rogue. If I want to solo my rogue, it's a huge challenge comparatively. I have to sneak around corners, use bluff, sacrifice countless summons, etc. Therefore, I think other melees should get a huge debuff when they kill stuff to make it fair and more fun for me.

Casters kill things. That's what they do, same as the rest of us. Sometimes they do it faster, like in eDA. Sometimes they do it slower, like in eTT where the melee own the mobs. And sometimes it's about equal all around. That is how it should be, and that is how it is right now on live.

If you guys are going to claim that people on live generally don't want powerful casters (including instakills) in their groups, I call shenanigans. Most DO want them, because they bring something to the table. If you don't like them, don't group with them, but don't pretend that they will lack play options. Instakills are coming nowhere near breaking the game. There is no data that shows that. If the devs want quests that are more challenging to casters, then they need to actually use tools like AI and SR and all the other fun mechanics that equalize other content. Straight up nerfs will lose business.

[bigolbear]

well this sounds a heck of a lot better than the first plan - but its still unnecessarily complex.

couple of points tho:

1. heroic lvls are fine and balanced due to enemies having way less hp - dont need this in heroic lvls.
2. the duration of haunting (and associated debuf) should be dependant on the mobs CR - and inherantly weak mobs like animals and vermin should count for less.
3. Further more the penalty should only kick in if the death effect kills MORE THAN 1 enemy.

I totaly get the desire to stop players from gathering up 20+ mobs and wailing them, thing is I only see this as a problem when ts done against enemies that should be clever enough not to fall into this trap.

With this thought process we could reintrocude chaming into epic.
that is if you charm/dominate a monster while it is under your control further charms/dominates suffer a dc penalty.


Of course the simplest answer reamins to place a mobs effected cap on AOE death spells. Thats the kind of simple change that would stop what you fear, stop the overpowered vets from exploiting the poor ai, and not even be noticed by the newer average players.

a simple: 1 mob targeted per 4 CL on wail, COD and undeath to death is all that is needed to fix this issue. - its very D&D, solves all the issues you mention and does not detrimantaly effect new players.

[DarkForte]

Remove the time limit, and put counters on for the number of enemies killed by aoe necro death spells. Each counter lowers your necromancy DC by 2. Remove counters by "Stealing Souls," getting a killing blow w/your other spells, including single target death spells. [SHOCK, you mean, use PK while my necro DC is lowered?!]

Good luck finding a PM that can fit PK in his spell slots.

[Elaril]

Implosion has a cap on how many mobs can be killed with it. If Wail is the "problem", just cap how many mobs can be killed with 1 cast, and up the timer slightly.

Say... let Wail kill up to 6 mobs, increase timer to 40 secs.

IMO, it's a better solution than Haunting or HTK.

And nobody dev-wise has commented how this will effect Clerics/FvS for Destruction/Slay Living (other commenters may need a reminder that Implosion is not Necromancy )

Any dev reading this is probably kicking himself in the head. Reducing the max number of targets is a much simpler and, in my opinion, better idea than introducing new game mechanics that penalize players.

[arkonas]

I love the haunting idea to a certain point. i dont mind a negative to something but just dont add it to everything. at first it was just about epic hard/elite which lesser dc players would have trouble landing the spells anyways and shouldnt be in there or not.

who it does hurt is everyone at all levels if they go with all difficulties. i really think that is the wrong approach to take. why screw all players? this was about hardest difficulties. i will love to see what pms can make use of haunting when enhancements come out. it would make sense to see some sort of bonus since they are necromancers. why wouldnt we get some sort of bonuses.

[HarveyMilk]

Good luck finding a PM that can fit PK in his spell slots.

How about... banishment against outsiders? How about some damage spells? Maybe they can swap to PK at a shrine? Or how about trap the soul? No wait... maybe sla's?

There are LOTS of spells that could be used to get your counters up by "Stealing Souls."

[Malshier]

Ahhhhh, feel the cleric love. There's nothing quite like dedicating your recreational time to facilitating other people's enjoyment, and getting sniped at for doing so.

Anyone wondering why there is a shortage of healers in this game, and why we need to do everything we can to make divine casters more desirable to play, need only read and ponder some of the comments made in here.

I have a FvS and a Cleric. I was being facetious. I don't want that to happen any more than I want this Haunted stuff to happen. It was an illustration of how ridiculous this mechanic is.

[HarveyMilk]

Any dev reading this is probably kicking himself in the head. Reducing the max number of targets is a much simpler and, in my opinion, better idea than introducing new game mechanics that penalize players.

But sometimes you just want to clear everything. And it's great to have that option, you just have to pay for it when you use it. But with counters and "Stealing Souls" instead of a penalty box, you'd have something to work towards w/your other spells.

[dubyprime]

I can't keep up with this thread. So I apologize if this is repeated.

I would ask the devs to take a look at single target instakills and consider whether they are really the problem.
I don't believe single target spells are a problem and the upcoming introduction of more terror/nighmares weapons indicates to me that the dev team doesn't believe they are.

Wail, circle of Death, and Implosion are the unbalancing spells. Implosion has a long timer and is the only divine AOE instakill making it more balanced than the others.

You should focus on changes related to these AoE instakills and let the single targets be.
Sure a wizard could still run through the quest fingering one mob at a time, but a melee can stun/trip one mob at a time as well.

To continue that analogy, if a melee could run in and AOE stun 10 mobs, would you nerf all stuns? or just the AoE?

Yes I know its different because melee's still have to beat it down. You do not need to beat me over the head with the differences.

Lastly I wanted to applaud anyone (Turbine employee or community member) who keeps up with this thread. That is a lot of work and you have my condolences.

[phalaeo]

Wail, circle of Death, and Implosion are the unbalancing spells. Implosion has a long timer and is the only divine AOE instakill making it more balanced than the others.

Implosion is unbalancing?

LOL.

Maybe when Clerics get a real Casting PrE and ways to up the DC other than past lives. Maybe when they reduce the ridiculous cool down time.

As of now? Implosion is hardly imbalancing.

[Faent]

10 quickened, heightened fods will also cost you 10x the sp of a single wail. Not a big deal at first, but we aren't talking about only 10 kills, are we? Say 20 kills? Or 30? You probably are also planning on conserving some sp for the boss fight, perhaps?

This is a massive red herring. First, there's no need to Quicken Finger. Second, necro-arcanes cast Finger every single time it's off timer already. The proposed changes reduce the number of times they can cast it, and so running out of SP is even less of an issue than it ever was (and it was never an issue in the first place). So this is totally irrelevant.

Most encounters also aren't 10 mobs unless the caster make it so by actively gathers them up.

If you hadn't got the memo, playing an arcane is about gathering up a lot of mobs and then nuking or wailing them down. Maybe this is why you are having SP problems?

For the moderate dc caster with half decent insta-kill capability, wail + fod backs up each other. Even the high dc caster gets the occasional save as well. Don't get me wrong, wail is majorly nerfed by haunting, but there's still situations when wail could come in handy.

Wail + FoD no longer back each other up. You cannot Finger anymore after a Wail. A solid Wail prevents you from casting ANY more instadeath spells for several minutes. It also costs you quite a few Finger kills and the higher your DC, the more kills you lose out on by opting to Wail. The smart caster will almost never Wail again. That's how bad the nerf is.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Quoted for emphasis, and to add that it's not just divine casters who could mass exodus.

Promoting team play is one thing, but reducing the game to nothing but melee characters who are forced to resort to doing without those classes that they've been screaming and crying to have nerfed on these forums won't make the game more fun, more playable, more balanced, or more profitable.

This, in conjunction with the other major casting changes in the expansion could work to destroy the morale and enthusiasm to play this game among a large chunk of the population, many of whom spend a LOT of money on this game.

"I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams." - W.B. Yeats

Agreed, I was negligent in failing to include arcane casters in my statement.

If you look at game play, divines provide buffs, healing and DPS to the party. Arcanes provide buffs and DPS. Non-tanking melee? They have no party responsibilities other than their own ego stroking DPS.

The payback for all the arcane and divine support over the years was a successful campaign by people playing melee to have casters nerfed? Huh? If this stands to any degree, you should expect there to be ramifications that ripple back into game play.

Someone would have to be a masochist to continue to support people who successfully campaigned to have your toons nerfed.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Can you point us in the direction of the research that proves nerfing insta-kills will lead to more people playing ddo?

Cause from what I've been reading in this thread, nerfing insta-kills is going to lead to

A) Less players in general, as we go to games where casters can be casters, and we aren't punished for being good at the game

B) Less Wizards - Why be a wizard, when a sorc has so much more spell points, and if you kill with them, you don't get penalized? There is NO reason to ever take a nerf to a character based on kills.

C) Less Divines - They don't like losing their death spells either, and will take even more of a hit than wizards. So, say goodbye to your healers.

D) Less grouping - Because, well - if the casters are gone... you melees can have fun with your 3 hour coal chamber quests by yourselves.

I think it is quite likely that

1) lots of people playing casters will leave and/or

2) all melee will simply be blacklisted, casters will run in all caster parties, and we will learn to adapt and prevail in quests without melee.

In either case, I see a lot of LFMs full of melee hanging open for a very long time.

[Autolycus]

As usual, another nerf supposedly aimed arcanes, but that hits divines harder. It's wrecking the 1-19 game based on what a tiny percentage of players can do in epic hard/elite.

Adding insult to injury is the enhancement idea that will improve other casting abilities during haunting. Thus mitigating the effect on arcanes (who have lots of alternatives), but leaving divines with the worst of it (who don't).

Honestly, implosion has a cap on mobs affected, and a one-minute cooldown. And no one is being accused of ruining quests with slay living. Why do you have to do this? I appreciate that this is well-intended, but the more I think about the implications of haunting in everyday quests, the worse it seems.

^This.

I've read the first 20-odd pages of this thread, and the more I think about it, the more I think that HTK on Epic Elite is much better than Haunting on everything. However, having said that, I think both are very bad ideas.

What problem are these proposed solutions (HTK and Haunting) supposed to fix? That spells are deadly? They're supposed to be! If the devs think that a spell(s) is too powerful, just adjust that specific spell's parameters (damage, duration, cooldown, maximum targets, etc.). If they think Wail is being used too often, just increase it's cooldown or limit the maximum number of targets it can affect. Clean and simple.

I think the Haunting concept is unnecessary and way too complicated. There have been many posts pointing out so many special cases that have to be considered and accounted for such as rogues, divines, guards, weapon procs, etc.. I'm sure some will be overlooked and/or bugged.

I also think Haunting is approaching "user overload". How will we monitor the DC penalty in real time for all our "insta-kill/necro" spells? Mousing over spell icons in the heat of battle to track DC penalties is not feasible. For instance, my casting Cleric will have to juggle and track the following (among other things):

• DC penalty timers on each affected spell
• Spell cooldown timers
• DoT stacking and timers
• Health Bars (and who's a PM that may need Harm instead of Heal)
• Positioning of myself, party members needing healing, and enemies
• Perhaps fighting

The proposed solutions seem like using a shotgun to kill a fly. While apparently aimed at Arcanes/PMs, the collateral damage to unintended targets is massive. The offensive casting of clerics will be devastated since most of their powerful offensive spells are death/insta-kill spells. I hope it won't be, but if Haunting is to be implemented, we need the devs to indicate which spells, effects, SLAs, etc. would be affected by these proposed changes.

Since I read the open beta notes and this thread, I've been very depressed and regretted purchasing the CE. I don't even want to login anymore. And this is coming from someone who doesn't even have a Pale Master.

[Elaril]

At first I thought this idea was better than hard to kill. The more I think about it, though, the worse it becomes.

I'll go ahead and say that this idea is worse than dungeon alert, worse than the swing speed nerf, worse than the wing nerf and worse than the nerf to haste. It is unnecessarily complicated and punitive towards players with high dc's. There is no hard cap or DR curve and it reeks of "giving us and idea that you knew that we'd hate, after giving us an idea that you knew we would hate even more," which I, for one, am absolutely sick of.

Please stop it alread with the major game mechanic alterations and give us minor tweaks, like maximum target caps on spells.

[Khthonic]

Basically this makes circle of death and wail almost irrelevant spells. I personally would barely ever use them on anything if it meant an instant -10 to my DC. This is a worse proposal than the first one as well since it will effect all content on all difficulties.

Why not just make the content HARDER? No PM's are blowing through Sands Epics or even Servants of the Overlord. Make content comparable to those challenges and you dont need to nerf anything.

[Cadveen]

I solely play a high end pale master and I agree that with alot of hard work you can out peform other members in your party, so I will agree that there could be some changes. (side note..I have seen a select couple melee players on my server who out performs all of the other melee players by a large margin. I would put there names but fear that someone would whine on the forums until their characters were deleted.)

It seems that as time goes on they continue to strip away what it means to be a pale master. (Another side note; they added breath under water but can now be poisoned? Either way in pnp pale masters are not suppose to be able to breath underwater) Ok back to the point; With this haunting idea, by description of the classes, pale masters should suffer the least from the effects due to them being NECROMANCY spec'd characters. So whatever the outcome, the other caster archtypes should suffer more of a penalty than a pale master in undead form. THIS ONLY MAKES SENSE.

The haunting should not affect single target insta-kills and should have a cap. This way super high end casters who put in alot of hard work and dedication to become the best should not suffer too much and they would maybe be reduced to that of your average caster.

Also, as I have mentioned on here once before, if you continue to take away from the prestige then you should add something fun. A few ideas:

FOR EVERY SOUL you kill you get a free DEATH AURA charge or can use the charge to energy drain. AWESOME!!!

Only add to LICH enhancement:

LICH pale masters should inflict despair with their death auras.

Lich Pale masters should get innate spell resistance of 15%

Lich Pale master slas - curse, contagion, ghoul touch, chill touch

....Enhancement: PYLACTERY: works like death pact...PLEASE ADD THIS.

[phalaeo]

if Haunting is to be implemented, we need the devs to indicate which spells, effects, SLAs, etc. would be affected by these proposed changes.

I know Dirge (the new Fatesinger ability) has a save involved for the slowing portion. And it hits mobs for neg energy. Will Haunting affect my Bard using Dirge? I wouldn't think so, and that's an extreme example, but that's what I'm thinking about.

That's why I've been saying... don't make wholesale changes to the game based off of one spell. Change the spell or possibly mob AI. In this case, I think just capping the number of mobs able to be killed by Wail, and giving it a slight increase on the cooldown is enough.

I don't have an arcane, but I'm troubled by how many people are saying they don't want to log in or they regret purchasing the Xpack due to this. And I am a little worried for my Cleric that makes use of her Necro spells.

[GermanicusMaximus]

Because it sucks playing a melee/ranged/dps character with an insta-killer. It is not fun to go over and hit a mob and then all the mobs are dead with one button. It trivializes the game and makes it less challenging.

Nothing makes the game less challenging than playing a melee toon which is viable simply by clicking and holding down a mouse button.