Feedback: Shadowdancer

[Munkenmo]

This implementation annoys me a bit in that we already have toggled hate-reduction enhancements like Subtle Backstabbing and Subtle Spellcasting, but as long as you don't feel that adding another one to the mix would be obnoxious, making the -20% hate into a toggled ability is definitely doable.

Interesting. Are we still having issues with deception + blindness and such? I was under the impression those had been addressed. Might be better to think of something besides the deception to apply: perhaps a negative level effect a la Life Stealing, as some have suggested. I don't want to introduce too many new clickies with these innates.

ignore shade, i see nothing wrong with an evasive character that's getting sneak attack dice to have to be subtle. the amount of stance toggles we have already consumes a whole hotbar.

a good tank should have intim and the threat won't be an overbearing issue.

[Coldin]

This implementation annoys me a bit in that we already have toggled hate-reduction enhancements like Subtle Backstabbing and Subtle Spellcasting, but as long as you don't feel that adding another one to the mix would be obnoxious, making the -20% hate into a toggled ability is definitely doable.

You know, I don't even take Subtle Backstabbing because it's an Active Feat, that I always have to toggle on everytime I log in. Now maybe if these toggles STAYED toggled....I'd take them.

Edit: By the way, I really like the way the passive tiers look now. Especially getting the ability to deal sneak attack damage against normally immune mobs.

[arcattaii]

You know, I don't even take Subtle Backstabbing because it's an Active Feat, that I always have to toggle on everytime I log in. Now maybe if these toggles STAYED toggled....I'd take them.

IIRC, this toggle is always toggled if you pick Subtle Backstabbing IV, but not on other tiers :P

[arcattaii]

I know that many people aren't going to like to hear it, but I'm having Genasi remove the ability from the Shadowdancer, we need to handle abilities like that by letting characters have that sort of thing early on. There will be abilities like this in the new enhancement system, which seems to be a much better place for it.

I know it's off topic, but I have to say that the already existing rogue enhancement is too AP-tight(either Assassin or Acrobat, even Mechanic is). I'm glad to see putting Dex2Dmg line into enhancement, but hopefully the new enhancement system would not be so AP-tight

[Dieterstrife]

Can we have the dex to damage back, please? Make it limited to 1 handed and ranged weapons. Have an ability in heroic lvls that allows for finesse weapons to have it, but toward the end of the epic destiny, have an ability that allows for any weapon?

Or just make the dex to damage in heroic levels apply to bows. I can deal with using rapiers and longbows.

[sephiroth1084]

Hey all: tons of great ideas, and while unfortunately a number of them are outside what we can feasibly do, we've taken them all into consideration and reworked each tier of the Shadowdancer innates appropriately.

Shadow Training I: Passive - You gain +1 sneak attack die per Shadowdancer level.

Glad to see that our input has made a contribution to the process.

Shadow Training II: Active - You gain temporary full movement and jump/tumble use while stealthed for 30 seconds (5 minute cooldown).

I think the cooldown would be okay if this lasted quite a bit longer. Honestly, though, I'd prefer to see this as being an innate, always active ability, or a stance, or cost a shadow charge for a 1-5 min duration, with no cooldown, or only work while you are carrying at least 1 shadow charge. Stealth is already a rather taxing gameplay style that is only marginally supported by the mechanics of the game and abilities we are granted. On top of that, you're rarely sneaking for only short bursts like that. Sure, you're probably not in a situation where you need to jump or tumble while stealthed for long periods of time, but the idea of being able to tumble or jump while sneaking is going to be about having to react quickly around half of the time that it comes up, and having to activate an ability before doing that just isn't really feasible.

Plus, the hope that many of us have for greater movement speed while sneaking (and maneuverability) is to be able to use stealth while in a party without falling behind the rest of the group all the time, or making them wait for us.

For example, the way that I use Assassinate on my rogue while in a party is to run ahead, and just as I know monsters are coming up, or see them before they see me, then I jump, hit Sneak, and try to get over to a target to kill before the rest of the party catches up and gets everything moving away from me. Full movement speed while sneaking would allow us to move ahead of the party a little, and get the drop on the monsters without having to do thumb-acrobatics just to have a chance at it.

Shadow Training III: Passive - You generate 20% less melee/ranged threat.

Should probably be a toggle, though I don't mind it being always on for this destiny. By the way, toggles that you turn on and leave on aren't annoying (except when they turn off every time you log out). A toggle is an option that most players appreciate.

Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.

I like this.

Shadow Training V: Active - You gain the use of a spell selector with Dimension Door and Shadow Walk, with 5 uses per rest. The cooldown for Shadow Training II's active ability is also reduced to 3 minutes.

I like this. Thanks! I think these could live without long cooldowns, since they have limited uses and aren't abusable really. Shadow Walk breaks if you do almost anything but run, and Dimension Door tends to not get used more than once in a given situation, since you end up on the other side of the dungeon/area unless someone missed the first door and you happen to still be there to recast it, which is not a problem.

Also, any chance of our Dimension Doors getting a re-skin from the bluish-white door casters use to a dark, shadowy looking one? Even just to change the color palette?

Dark Deception: Passive - You gain Evasion if you don't already have it. In addition, your melee/ranged vorpals envelop targets in shadow, making them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attacks (like a Deception weapon) and also removing their sneak attack immunity for a short duration, if applicable.

I like this. I'd like to see Deception and blindness get fixed for real, finally, but I'm not quite so annoyed by the bugginess as some other people are.

Question: Is the bolded portion to indicate that this will enable sneak attacks against undead? Fortified monsters?

Any chance of this detecting whether you have Evasion already and granting a bonus to Reflex saves if you do already?

I think this addresses a lot of what people wanted to see from the Destiny. I'll also still be adding a choice between melee/ranged versions of Dark Shrouding and Executioner's Strike, a tumble-through-monsters effect for Shadow Form, a +2 Assassinate boost per tier of Stealthy, and a +2 flanking bonus per tier of Technician.

That sounds rather excellent.

Can the +2 to Assassinate boost apply to other similarly themed abilities that allow for a save as well?

• Assassin's poisons
• Smite Construct
• Touch of Death (remember, that while this is themed as a roguish destiny, it should be applicable to more than just rogues)
• Dark monk finishers
• Quivering Palm

My thinking is that it would make sense for this destiny to support dark monks in this way, while Grandmaster of Flowers would get a similar ability for light monk finishers and special abilities (notable the Shintao special attacks like Kukan-Do).

In addition to those changes I'll give Cloak of Shadows negative energy damage protection in addition to the light damage protection. I'll see if I can remove the spell penetration check from Consume (since a DC based on Int is really enough, you shouldn't have to wear caster gear to use this ability dependably), and I'll pull the undead traits off the Shadow Form too. Although they make sense for a Shadow, the characters mainly interested in this Destiny just don't have the same tools available to them as Pale Masters (namely a Death Aura for healing).

Sounds like a good plan.

Can we get some non-skill abilities in tier I? Also, can we get some way to gain Dark Shrouding charges in tier I?

Also, also, can we get some way to use Dark Shrouding with Assassinate? Right now, because DS is an active attack, it cannot be used with Assassinate without quite a bit of effort, as it breaks stealth, and Assassinate requires both stealth and no aggro from your target.

[voodoogroves]

Can the +2 to Assassinate boost apply to other similarly themed abilities that allow for a save as well?

• Assassin's poisons
• Smite Construct
• Touch of Death (remember, that while this is themed as a roguish destiny, it should be applicable to more than just rogues)
• Dark monk finishers
• Quivering Palm

My thinking is that it would make sense for this destiny to support dark monks in this way, while Grandmaster of Flowers would get a similar ability for light monk finishers and special abilities (notable the Shintao special attacks like Kukan-Do).

This is what I was thinking of with I suggested a very short range save reduction ... so you could use it on any special attack.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a bonus to trip DCs ... spinning dancers tripping folks, etc.


But yes ... make it less rogue-specific.


While we're at it ... let it boost the save of Shining Star too ;-)

[lordstranho]

I do not understand why the DEX to DAMAGE is considered overpower, build based on DEX would gain more AC and Reflex but lose damage and DC on tactical feats.
I would like that ability back.

[voodoogroves]

I do not understand why the DEX to DAMAGE is considered overpower, build based on DEX would gain more AC and Reflex but lose damage and DC on tactical feats.
I would like that ability back.

It isn't considered over powered. It is being moved out of the EPIC destiny and something they are going to work in to heroic level capabilities somehow.

So, you know, you can use it BEFORE level 21.

[sephiroth1084]

This is what I was thinking of with I suggested a very short range save reduction ... so you could use it on any special attack.

I also wouldn't mind seeing a bonus to trip DCs ... spinning dancers tripping folks, etc.


But yes ... make it less rogue-specific.


While we're at it ... let it boost the save of Shining Star too ;-)

Shining Star I would think would end up in the mirror ability in Grandmaster (that I hope to see there). In either case, a monk would be able to take one destiny or the other, regardless of path, and twist the DC boost from the other if he needs it.

For trip, that's what a twist from Dreadnought is for.

I think adding an ability that causes save reduction from attacks made from stealth/invisibility would be good.

I do not understand why the DEX to DAMAGE is considered overpower, build based on DEX would gain more AC and Reflex but lose damage and DC on tactical feats.
I would like that ability back.

It wasn't too strong, it was that it is clunky to have a Dex-focused character for 23 levels who needs Str for their damage suddenly be free from that need upon gaining the epic ability, and even more weird that the same character may feel locked into this destiny due to their not being able to maintain that effect in other destinies.

The idea is that the devs will give such characters some way to achieve this (Dex to damage) somewhere in the heroic levels sot hat the playstyle is supported for longer. That means that people who go into Shadowdancer as soon as the update hits will miss out on the ability that we was dangled in front of us until the devs find a way to give it to us. My guess is it will come with the enhancement redesign, which I think is slated for U16--probably in the November-January range. That kind of sucks, but in the long run, having it only appear here sucks more.

[Jaid314]

for dark shrouding, perhaps you could just make the damage delayed by, say, one second, or have the damage from it cause no aggro whatsoever. that would give you a moment to get an assassinate off, for example.

also, for the evasion ability, you could offer a toggle (hopefully one that sticks) that switches between bonus to reflex saves and granting evasion, perhaps? (if the ability to detect whether someone has evasion is not available, i mean). this would satisfy those who want to gain evasion from this destiny, and also the many many many more people who already have evasion who are interested in this destiny.

not sure 3% doublestrike is all that exciting tbh, but when combined with all the other stuff the destiny gets, it should be nice (it's not that doublestrike isn't interesting, simply that it isn't a particularly large number.)

finally, i agree that a way to gain shadow charges (and maybe even charges for the epic moment) seems important. maybe a tier 1 ability (it should be at tier 1 since it's used for other abilities starting early on. also because tier 1 is super underwhelming. i don't feel whelmed at all!). something like a 5 minute cooldown to gain 5 charges maybe? (that would be, what, 1:30 to 1:45 worth of charges if we assume you wouldn't be able to perfectly use every single opportunity the instant it comes on cooldown).

[karl_k0ch]

This implementation annoys me a bit in that we already have toggled hate-reduction enhancements like Subtle Backstabbing and Subtle Spellcasting, but as long as you don't feel that adding another one to the mix would be obnoxious, making the -20% hate into a toggled ability is definitely doable.

It would be a bit annoying, indeed, if I needed to remember to switch on two stances instead of one to reduce my rogue's threat generation. If possible, an implementation which gives a bonus to SB would be favorable to a two-button solution.
If there is no one-button solution possible, then a passive bonus would be nice.

[bbqzor]

This implementation annoys me a bit in that we already have toggled hate-reduction enhancements like Subtle Backstabbing and Subtle Spellcasting, but as long as you don't feel that adding another one to the mix would be obnoxious, making the -20% hate into a toggled ability is definitely doable.

Toggles are fine, its just one click when you log in or setup and thats it. As mentioned, getting it to remember your toggle status (like stances do) instead of having to redo it each time (like power attack, brute fighting, etc) would be of benefit here. I'm sure everyone would like the choice of turning it on and off, since agro is one of those things that sometimes you want, and sometimes you don't, and choice for the player is always desirable to provide. But having it remember what you set it to would remove overhead for the few who don't want to bother as much. Its the short term spam stuff thats way into overkill, not toggles.

Interesting. Are we still having issues with deception + blindness and such? I was under the impression those had been addressed. Might be better to think of something besides the deception to apply: perhaps a negative level effect a la Life Stealing, as some have suggested. I don't want to introduce too many new clickies with these innates.

Yes, there are still issues... try logging in and using an epic tier rogue in a party with cc effects and prepare for mind blowing mob pathing antics. Frankly, the sneak attack landing portion is sorely needed and should not be removed, even if the deception part is.

And on the deception part, too often I have seen changes made under a justified set of circumstances, only to later become problematic because the circumstances are changed. DDO changes too much to really make moves like that anymore, we hardly go 6 months without some core system being totally revamped in some way, which is heedlessly fast. If continued work is being done to stop mobs from finishing their attempted moves once cc'd so they stop in place, instead of sliding to their target move position and then parking like they do now, then leave the deception option in. Because if its removed now and deception is later fixed, its a giant pain trying to get it put back in. There was a dev post about just this thing some time ago, explaining how the mobs pick where they want to move and then start going, and they finish that move before checking to see if they can move again when the cc kicks in, and how it wasn't really able to be worked on more. Ask around or search or what not and check that out fresh (it might be related to systems which have since been changed or overhauled, like the physics engine for example), then make a call. Its not just blindness, stun, hold, petrify etc all still slide, and deception makes all of them operate really badly (use deception on the water spirit statues you break to free in Into the Deep for a good example of deception vs mob which shouldn't move... no really, go do this, it will become really obvious really fast).

Also, please make agro persist steadily through deception... thats entirely unrelated to cc effects and has to do with the mobs animations and attack decision making, not movement. One easy fix may be to make the "mob turns around" part only work if its targeted on the source of the proc... ie, if you're the top of its hate list, it turns from you, otherwise the game assumes its already turned while it hates on whatever else. Tanking and/or agro control in general shouldn't be made more difficult by rogue item effects encouraging sneak attacks. Thats the sort of thing they should want to use, not need to avoid because its instead removing sneak attacks by shifting agro around.

If deception is removed, please do not replace it with level drain. Rogues have access to that already on several weapons and the assassin tod set and its just not that attractive. Getting sneak to work on otherwise immune mobs is. We don't need more clickies in the giant click fest the game is moving towards... we do not need a wow environment where abilities are macro'd and have <12 sec durations. Please keep it as passive, and preserve the sneak attack throughput portion.

[karl_k0ch]

If deception is removed, please do not replace it with level drain. Rogues have access to that already on several weapons and the assassin tod set and its just not that attractive. Getting sneak to work on otherwise immune mobs is. We don't need more clickies in the giant click fest the game is moving towards... we do not need a wow environment where abilities are macro'd and have <12 sec durations. Please keep it as passive, and preserve the sneak attack throughput portion.

Actually, on my Str-based Rogue I'd rather run around with EMG/Radiance and Ravager Set + Shintao than other weapons and the Assassin Set. I wouldn't mind that kind of redundancy.


Bypassing SA immunity (this applies to Undead and Elemental, yes?) would be a very interesting ability indeed.

We are also having issues with Blindess + Dancing/Paralyzed/Held mobs, fyi.

[robdrew]

This implementation annoys me a bit in that we already have toggled hate-reduction enhancements like Subtle Backstabbing and Subtle Spellcasting, but as long as you don't feel that adding another one to the mix would be obnoxious, making the -20% hate into a toggled ability is definitely doable.

Interesting. Are we still having issues with deception + blindness and such? I was under the impression those had been addressed. Might be better to think of something besides the deception to apply: perhaps a negative level effect a la Life Stealing, as some have suggested. I don't want to introduce too many new clickies with these innates.

How about on a roll of 20 all attacks are considered Sneak attack for the next 1-3 seconds instead of using deception.

[chintao]

Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.

While I think this is very nice, there is a stacking issue that needs to be resolved here in regards to opportunist and rogue double striking in general.

Currently on live opportunist does not stack with item bonuses. I tested the cove shortsword with a 12/6/2 build with no inherent doublestrike. 2000 swings on the training dummy yielded a 6.35% proc rate. Perfect right where it should be. I then switched to my rogue with the opportunist feat. I first tested 1000 swings dual wielding with the smallblade in the main hand slot. I observed a 5.9% proc rate! Hmm... nowhere near 9%. I then removed the offhand weapon and tested another 2000 swings with only the smallblade in the main hand. Observed proc rate was 6.015%! These numbers are well within normal ranges of a 6% proc rate. SO there you have it - test it yourself, if you want, I am not spending another 3 hours with a training dummy

The idea is fine and good but if the bonuses dont stack they are useless. It would be nice if my opprotunist rogue with shadow training IV, wielding the cove shortsword, actually saw a 12% proc rate.

[Skavenaps]

Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.

Hey Genasi,

first of all thanks for the work.

I will like that passive to give something to ranged combat (throws weapons also) asi doble strike do nothing to them. Maybe +attack speed for ranged?

Thanks

[destiny4405]

Love the new changes. I didnt have problems with deception at all with danced/held mobs, unlike for radiance, which still makes mobs go crazy. Deception also works on bosses, so i would like if deception stayed.

Also, iirc, subtle spellcasting isn't toggle.

[shadowranger]

Shadow training I (required 0): (Passive) +1 Sneak attack die.Light weapons and quarterstaff you fight with use dex instead of strength to hit if higher (like weapon finesse Feat)
Shadow training II (required 4): (Passive) +1 Sneak attack die (+2 total).Grants evasion if you do not have,or grants improved evasion if you have evasion.
Shadow training III (required 8): (Passive) +1 Sneak attack die (+3 total).Light weapons and quarterstaff you fight with use dex instead of strength for damage if higher
Shadow training IV (required 12): (Passive) +1 Sneak attack die (+4 total).Full BAB with light weapons or quarterstaff.
Shadow training V (required 16): (Passive) +1 Sneak attack die (+5 total).Grants insightful sneak attack:get extra INT. MOD sneak damage and effect of "deception".
wraith form (required 20,stance): Transformation toggle: Assume wraith form.Spend a shadow charge to gain 25% incorporeality (and ignore incorporeal miss chance), float as if affected by featherfall, have bonuses to hide and move silently and deal strength damage on all melee and ranged attacks. You also take double damage from light effects and only can be healed by negative energy.

to solve the self-heal problem after wraith form is active,design some ability(spend a shadow charge) like effect of spell"harm" on destines tier 4 or 5

[Dagolar]

I know that many people aren't going to like to hear it, but I'm having Genasi remove the ability from the Shadowdancer, we need to handle abilities like that by letting characters have that sort of thing early on. There will be abilities like this in the new enhancement system, which seems to be a much better place for it.

Oooh. Does this mean I can finally have hope on seeing a Swashbuckler [with Dread Pirate/Duelist PrEs] base class?