Feedback: Shadowdancer

[b_r_z_y_t_k_i]

Hey all: tons of great ideas, and while unfortunately a number of them are outside what we can feasibly do, we've taken them all into consideration and reworked each tier of the Shadowdancer innates appropriately.

Shadow Training I: Passive - You gain +1 sneak attack die per Shadowdancer level.
Shadow Training II: Active - You gain temporary full movement and jump/tumble use while stealthed for 30 seconds (5 minute cooldown).

Although i'd like to see making stealth a little bit more desireable all the time, not only when one ability is used, i get that you are not able to introduce opening doors/pulling levers while stealthed or just can't due to it being OP in a number of quests. I think however that 30sec every 5 or 3 minutes is a little bit too low. Changing it to 1 minute with the same cooldowns would be better, imo.

Shadow Training III: Passive - You generate 20% less melee/ranged threat.

Yes, giving threat reduction is the right move. Giving it a toggle wouldn't be a problem, if we didn't already have toggled SB line, PA and some other toggled abilities that reset upon relogging. I don't see any issue with letting it stay as is, a measly -20% threat shouldn't be of any concern for a tank that for some reason wants Shadowdancer levels.

Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.

So does it affect every light (finessable) weapon you wield no matter if you have Finesse Weapon feat or not? Please make sure 3% doublestrike stacks with other sources (items, weapons, but most importantly Opportunist).

Shadow Training V: Active - You gain the use of a spell selector with Dimension Door and Shadow Walk, with 5 uses per rest. The cooldown for Shadow Training II's active ability is also reduced to 3 minutes.

That's very nice. DD won't be used more than 1-2 times per quest and obviously not in every. I'm a little bit concerned about Shadow Walk since if you do literally anything other than run/walk/tumble it ends so it can deplete uses fairly quickly if you 'misfire' or want to open door.

Dark Deception: Passive - You gain Evasion if you don't already have it. In addition, your melee/ranged vorpals envelop targets in shadow, making them temporarily vulnerable to sneak attacks (like a Deception weapon) and also removing their sneak attack immunity for a short duration, if applicable.

About deception, the only problems i had with it were: elemental statues like the ones in Into the Deep when they started to move when Deception proc'd and djinnis in EVON6 when they started to move around the base when it proc'd (though it was pretty amusing to hear people's reactions). For me, it can stay as is. Question though about the bolded part, does it mean that we'll be able to SA undead or just that we negate fortification of mobs that can be affected by SA (like treating Horoth as a 0% fort mob).

I think this addresses a lot of what people wanted to see from the Destiny. I'll also still be adding a choice between melee/ranged versions of Dark Shrouding and Executioner's Strike, a tumble-through-monsters effect for Shadow Form, a +2 Assassinate boost per tier of Stealthy, and a +2 flanking bonus per tier of Technician.

Commented on this already but i'll say again that it is a good changed since we need something shiny in 1st and 2nd tiers.

In addition to those changes I'll give Cloak of Shadows negative energy damage protection in addition to the light damage protection. I'll see if I can remove the spell penetration check from Consume (since a DC based on Int is really enough, you shouldn't have to wear caster gear to use this ability dependably), and I'll pull the undead traits off the Shadow Form too. Although they make sense for a Shadow, the characters mainly interested in this Destiny just don't have the same tools available to them as Pale Masters (namely a Death Aura for healing).

Negative energy damage protection is a nice perk. Big thanks for getting rid of spell pen check on Consume and undead traits from Shadow Form.

There are just two things that catch my eye that i think should be addressed.
First is getting shadow charges from other source than tier 3 Dark Shrouding. I mean it's the only way we can get them and we have 5 abilities that use up the charges and 3 more abilities that you get greater benefit from when you have charges. Not to mention that one of them is tier 1 ability. For an ED that has so many abilities tied to charges it's really astounding that the only way to get them is an attack with 15 sec cooldown, and it's not guaranteed that you get one as well.
Second is that Dark Shrouding, being an active attack, makes it very hard to mark a target and then assassinate it. That is unless you use Bluff, (improved) Feint, Radiance or (improved) deception procs. So if you are lucky or use a combo, re-stealth and not get hit by anything (since getting hit in stealth throws you out of it immediately but still you have to wait a second to re-stealth yet again due to cooldown) you might get it, but it seems obvious to me that if i want to assassinate a mob, it should be marked automatically. I'd propose getting one charge on a successful assassinate attempt, especially if there aren't any other sources of aquiring shadow charges.

[sephiroth1084]

The doublestrike should probably read: "...finessable weapons and quarterstaves..." so that Acrobats aren't screwed, unless you are allows those to be finessed (you should).

That also means that archers don't get anything special there, since doublestrike doesn't work with ranged attacks. Not sure if that's a real problem or not, as 3% is small enough that not having it shouldn't hurt much.

[voodoogroves]

First is getting shadow charges from other source than tier 3 Dark Shrouding. I mean it's the only way we can get them and we have 5 abilities that use up the charges and 3 more abilities that you get greater benefit from when you have charges. Not to mention that one of them is tier 1 ability. For an ED that has so many abilities tied to charges it's really astounding that the only way to get them is an attack with 15 sec cooldown, and it's not guaranteed that you get one as well.
Second is that Dark Shrouding, being an active attack, makes it very hard to mark a target and then assassinate it. That is unless you use Bluff, (improved) Feint, Radiance or (improved) deception procs. So if you are lucky or use a combo, re-stealth and not get hit by anything (since getting hit in stealth throws you out of it immediately but still you have to wait a second to re-stealth yet again due to cooldown) you might get it, but it seems obvious to me that if i want to assassinate a mob, it should be marked automatically. I'd propose getting one charge on a successful assassinate attempt, especially if there aren't any other sources of aquiring shadow charges.

Agree completely; other ways to gain charges would be good.

Would it be too much to have deception also mark or somehow tie the two together? If not, more active abilities to generate, and not just assassin-focused (like assassinate).

[Dagolar]

The doublestrike should probably read: "...finessable weapons and quarterstaves..." so that Acrobats aren't screwed, unless you are allows those to be finessed (you should).

That also means that archers don't get anything special there, since doublestrike doesn't work with ranged attacks. Not sure if that's a real problem or not, as 3% is small enough that not having it shouldn't hurt much.

It's my thought that Acrobats should get an ability near the start of their tree in the new enhancement system that makes quarterstaves finessable.

[Dagolar]

This implementation annoys me a bit in that we already have toggled hate-reduction enhancements like Subtle Backstabbing and Subtle Spellcasting, but as long as you don't feel that adding another one to the mix would be obnoxious, making the -20% hate into a toggled ability is definitely doable.

Could just have it be an "Improves the effect of Subtle Backstabbing by +20%. If you do not already have Subtle Backstabbing, you instead gain access to Subtle Backstabbing (-20%)".

It'd require a fair bit more internal tweaking, but if UI clutter is your concern, that'd probably be the way to clear it up- assuming some sort of balance can be made between the ability's melee+ranged effect versus Subtle Backstabbing's melee-only limitation.

Either way, I don't have a personal problem with an additional toggle.
It'd be the roguish equivalent of metamagic management, assuming we can keep stances retaining their toggle condition better (during relogs).

[LiquidShadow]

Shadow Training II: Active - You gain temporary full movement and jump/tumble use while stealthed for 30 seconds (5 minute cooldown).

u know its not that great... u could either make it passive and move it to higher tier or make some of those effects permanent.

for example remove movement speed bonus but make ability to sneak jump/tumble permanent
or give permanent stealth movement speed bonus (40-60% that stacks with heroic enhancements and thus would give u 80-100% speed) and leave active skill with cooldown for stealth jump/tumble

[Dolphious]

I think the cooldown would be okay if this lasted quite a bit longer. Honestly, though, I'd prefer to see this as being an innate, always active ability, or a stance, or cost a shadow charge for a 1-5 min duration, with no cooldown, or only work while you are carrying at least 1 shadow charge. Stealth is already a rather taxing gameplay style that is only marginally supported by the mechanics of the game and abilities we are granted. On top of that, you're rarely sneaking for only short bursts like that. Sure, you're probably not in a situation where you need to jump or tumble while stealthed for long periods of time, but the idea of being able to tumble or jump while sneaking is going to be about having to react quickly around half of the time that it comes up, and having to activate an ability before doing that just isn't really feasible.

This. I can see why you might not want full running/jumping stealth to be completely spam-able, but it really doesn't need anywhere near a 30sec per 5min limitation.

Of course I have shadow fade on my "rogue" so meh

Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.

please make it work with handwraps pretty please XD

[Malky]

Could just have it be an "Improves the effect of Subtle Backstabbing by +20%. If you do not already have Subtle Backstabbing, you instead gain access to Subtle Backstabbing (-20%)".

Good idea imo

[Skavenaps]

Could just have it be an "Improves the effect of Subtle Backstabbing by +20%. If you do not already have Subtle Backstabbing, you instead gain access to Subtle Backstabbing (-20%)".

Good idea imo

Bad idea because it mess with enhaments. dont tie ED with them.

[shadowranger]

I suggest:
tier 1
poison imbued(3 rank,1AP):+1d6/2d6/3d6 poison damage on all weapons.All the poisons you use are considered as natural ones.

tier 2
mystical posion(1 rank,2AP):+2d6 extra poison damage on critical hit.All the poisons you use are considered as magical ones.

tier 3
deadly posion(1 rank,2AP):+40d6 extra poison damage on vorpal hit(Fort. save to half,DC=14+Chara. level+INT. MOD).All the poisons you use are considered as supernatural ones.

Then,wait to see much better changes in dodge chain and shadow chain.

[Dagolar]

This. I can see why you might not want full running/jumping stealth to be completely spam-able, but it really doesn't need anywhere near a 30sec per 5min limitation.

Of course I have shadow fade on my "rogue" so meh

Shadow Training IV: Passive - While using finessable weapons, you gain 3% doublestrike.

please make it work with handwraps pretty please XD

Agreed: The tumble/speed needs a tweak.
Also: Shadow Training needs to benefit throwing weapons somehow- or at the very least shuriken. One of the best things (in terms of unique mechanics) about the initial dex hit/dam setup was that it actually offered some benefits to throwing weapons. Throwing weapons just seeming an appropriate thematic element for the class.

[Dagolar]

Bad idea because it mess with enhaments. dont tie ED with them.

You must hate those smite, lay on hands, turn, and power attack destiny elements, then.

Condensing identical enchantments and feats and abilities into one classification seems a reasonable approach to avoid clutter, and doesn't affect the individual elements separately at all [barring the ranged/melee point I addressed].

Imagine if you had to toggle each power attack type separately, on a Barbarian Half-Orc/Warforged Dreadnought? :P

[Skavenaps]

You must hate those smite, lay on hands, turn, and power attack destiny elements, then.

Condensing identical enchantments and feats and abilities into one classification seems a reasonable approach to avoid clutter, and doesn't affect the individual elements separately at all [barring the ranged/melee point I addressed].

Imagine if you had to toggle each power attack type separately, on a Barbarian Half-Orc/Warforged Dreadnought? :P

yep.. but all what you mentioned are NOT enchantments, are class feats/mechanics that can be altered by PrE's (aka enchantments) and ED.

[Malky]

yep.. but all what you mentioned are NOT enchantments, are class feats/mechanics that can be altered by PrE's (aka enchantments) and ED.

It doesn't matter, subtle backstabbing could as well be a feat (with enhancements improving it like smites etc..). Your point is a non issue, really.

The fact is that a permanent -20% threat leaves no choice for the player, and tying it to subtle backstabbing is the simplest way of getting rid of that concern. Rogues already have subtle to switch on everytime they log, having another stance to switch makes no sense.
For non rogues they'd get a -20% threat stance that they can choose to use or not.

[JOTMON]

mt.

[JOTMON]

We've had a few meetings, and we agree with you that character build defining abilities like "gets Dex to damage" aren't going to be a good thing to have in epic destinies. These are things that really need to be available to characters that want to do that sort of thing relatively early in their careers (just like how we removed the BAB requirement from Weapon Finesse so long ago).

I know that many people aren't going to like to hear it, but I'm having Genasi remove the ability from the Shadowdancer, we need to handle abilities like that by letting characters have that sort of thing early on. There will be abilities like this in the new enhancement system, which seems to be a much better place for it.

Now we just need to make some abilities to replace those in the Shadowdancer innate line. Anything you guys want to suggest to Genasi?

Edit:
Note: He probably won't use your ideas exactly as written, but they might get him to think of something cool.

Removing this would effectively kill the Shadowdancer option for many builds.

Wouldn't it be easier to allow weapons finess feat to allow Dex Attack/Damage as a selectible on/off like Power Attack. This would allow dex based builds to build up from lower levels and not invalidate all the dex AC builds currently slated for TR or packmuling at go live.

Lots of interesting poster suggestions other stuff perhaps...

Smokedust/Glitterdust bombs (or use the already in place Drow darkness)- animation like the old ninja moves throw down the exploding ball and poof he is gone.
Get a burst 2x to Bluff/Diplo/hide/sneak effect ... Poof you disappear from the mobs as they turn around looking for you distracted and trying to avoid blindness and... open themselves up for a sneak attack or an opportunity for aggro free escape.

Int Bonus to Fortification bypass. - You gleam weaknesses within the opponents fortifications and can exploit them effectively(passive). Effective on constructs as well...

change shadow lances to shirkens or daggers, less damage but more of them.

[Dagolar]

Removing this would effectively kill the Shadowdancer option for many builds.

Wouldn't it be easier to allow weapons finess feat to allow Dex Attack/Damage as a selectible on/off like Power Attack. This would allow dex based builds to build up from lower levels and not invalidate all the dex AC builds currently slated for TR or packmuling at go live.

Not quite appreciative of the scenario as you describe it, but we could work a similar design out quite well; As an example:
"Improved Weapon Finesse: [Feat, req: Weapon Finesse, Dexterity: 21, BAB: 6] or [Enhancement: Ninja Spy/Thief-Acrobat: Req: Weapon Finesse]: Benefit: All finessable weapons (Or short sword/staff, for respective enhancements) and thrown weapons now use dexterity for damage."

Then, add in a tier 5 innate for Shadow Dancer that allows finessing of additional weapons. That'll give it the unique element, while still preserving the potency and early level use of finesse.

[Jaid314]

Not quite appreciative of the scenario as you describe it, but we could work a similar design out quite well; As an example:
"Improved Weapon Finesse: [Feat, req: Weapon Finesse, Dexterity: 21, BAB: 6] or [Enhancement: Ninja Spy/Thief-Acrobat: Req: Weapon Finesse]: Benefit: All finessable weapons (Or short sword/staff, for respective enhancements) and thrown weapons now use dexterity for damage."

Then, add in a tier 5 innate for Shadow Dancer that allows finessing of additional weapons. That'll give it the unique element, while still preserving the potency and early level use of finesse.

can't have enhancement pre-reqs for feats, because enhancements can be changed too easily.

[bbqzor]

Actually, on my Str-based Rogue I'd rather run around with EMG/Radiance and Ravager Set + Shintao than other weapons and the Assassin Set. I wouldn't mind that kind of redundancy.

After the lv25 loot is out, one or both of those sets will likely be rendered obsolete in any build; in some builds they already are just using loot available on live (my rogue only uses 1 tod set half the time, its just not worthwhile using more, and using just loot previewed on beta even that one won't last).

Furthermore, the level drain proc is horribly marginal in epic content due to how fast mobs regain single negative levels (<6 sec). An epic destiny tier ability should not be effective for a window <6 seconds. For times you want that proc, either in lower level content or some specific case, its already available as both a weapon swap in, or an item set swap in, and thats sufficient.

Deception is (or rather, would be) a useful effect for it to add, both to allow more weapon options going forward (for classes taking the destiny which aren't geared as rogues) and to allow freedom when itemizing even rogue centric items (since it lessens the burden of every single one having a sneak attack causing component). This is why its worth supporting, if deception is fixed, rather than a marginal proc already available as a swap.

Bypassing SA immunity (this applies to Undead and Elemental, yes?) would be a very interesting ability indeed.

Yes, its available in several forms in PnP and its long overdue in DDO. PnP designers realized rogues needed a way to get damage out against things, and DDO is facing that same situation, this ability is much needed.

We are also having issues with Blindess + Dancing/Paralyzed/Held mobs, fyi.

Yes, this bug was never fully fixed, and the same applies for deception effects more or less. It is incredibly easy to reproduce as well. Use deception or blind weapons on anything supposedly stationary, and over a quest you'll get tons of movement.

I did some searching and it may be related to mob animations; mobs which have no animation for an effect may move when affected by it. Eg, the water statues in Into The Deep aren't supposed to move, so deceptions proc moves them anyhow. Or spiders lack a dance animation, so even when danced they move anyhow, etc. This, on top of the dev post about moving decisions where the mobs don't stop mid action (ie, if the mob is moving to point A, and is tripped in route, it continues unfettered until reaching point A when it tries to make a new moving decision and can't, causing the baseball slide anyone with trip is familiar with), is probably whats going on. Please look into that Turbine. There is a whole slew of cc related effects impacted by this... actually Web is one of the best cc spells because it actually can stop something in its tracks (mostly, even web sometimes has some slide inside, but its much more reliable at it than say trip/dance/stun/blind/etc).

Of course, this doesn't even touch the agro issues with deception, the coding on that should probably be reworked to act a little more like "reverse sneak attack" (where deception is ignored if you're already not agroed, and procs if you are agroed), instead of making mandatory move/ai changes even when they are unneeded.

[sephiroth1084]

Removing this would effectively kill the Shadowdancer option for many builds.

No it wouldn't. You went through 20 levels without using Dex for damage, so why would not having it suddenly impact you so negatively as to not make taking Shadowdancer worthwhile at all?

6d6 SA is a lot of damage (21 damage on average, which is probably more than you would gain by adding your Dex to damage), and it has some nifty abilities, with hopefully some more interesting ones on the way.

The devs have expressed a desire to provide a way to gain Dex to damage at some point in the heroic levels so that such characters are supported for more of the game. I agree with this, though I wish it were coming concurrently with the Xpack. It isn't, but we've lived with this for several years, we can live with it for a few more months.