Lets' Talk: AC

[Thrudh]

The danger for a high AC toon is caster mobs. I think the entire fear of having "unhittable toons" is overstated when taking the current game into consideration.

If I had a 138 AC fighter or paladin tank for instance, I could accomplish alot in epic content. I would still not be as powerful as a similarly geared caster though. It would take far more time for that tank to solo their way through the same epic it takes far less time for similarly geared casters to do so. So why is there still a fear that an overgeared melee would be OP to epic trash. Overgeared casters are still far more OP to the same trash.

Heck my bard is one song away from stopping them all in their tracks for ~4 minutes.

Epic trash has to be dangerous? It isnt dangerous to most other classes and build options. But for some reason there is still this fear of making it "trivial" for AC builds as well - to the point where Turbine codes butt naked riding a zebra ogres with 110+ AB.



This makes it so that everyone without the "best AC" has effectively 'no AC" - this is not a demonstration of game balance, as you outline below.



They made their own bed on that issue shortly after the vale was released, and continued to do so. Now the issue has been allowed to continue for too long. If a character needs 92 AC to not be hit in a specific encounter, then 72 AC might as well be 10 AC.

I was just playing NWN on a PW the other day, and noticed I was getting hit alot, so I tossed ona shield that gave me 4 AC, and was able to survive through encounters I could not survive through before.

Of course, the question then becomes "what happens when someone makes a bard/RDD/PM that has 100+ AC? The answer is Ice storm, heh. It doesnt roll to hit.

AC builds do have a weakness. Its just not melee damage.

Good post.

There's nothing wrong with making AC builds viable at end-game.

They are very viable during the rest of the game, and I don't see anything broken about that.

[jwdaniels]

Good post.

There's nothing wrong with making AC builds viable at end-game.

They are very viable during the rest of the game, and I don't see anything broken about that.

AC builds are viable at end game, with a few exceptions. That's not the issue. The problem is that AC is worthless except for AC builds because of the wide variance between the typical AC that someone can get and the AC that a focused build can achieve. When the spread between what most people can reasonably get and what a highly focused AC build has becomes too wide, the game either builds opponents that can't really hit the AC build (therefore making it an uber FotM build) or that can't miss the other builds (thereby making it pointless to bother trying to achieve any sort ofAC).

[Thrudh]

AC builds are viable at end game, with a few exceptions.

If by "few exceptions", you mean all epics, then I guess you're right. But I would think all epics is a majority of the end-game.

That's not the issue. The problem is that AC is worthless except for AC builds because of the wide variance between the typical AC that someone can get and the AC that a focused build can achieve. When the spread between what most people can reasonably get and what a highly focused AC build has becomes too wide, the game either builds opponents that can't really hit the AC build (therefore making it an uber FotM build) or that can't miss the other builds (thereby making it pointless to bother trying to achieve any sort ofAC).

Dude, my AC is so high in 1-19 game that most trash can only hit me on a 1. Yet, strangely, I don't see a whole lot of people rushing to copy my uber FotM build. And I do die at times.
Here's what they need to do...

Most epic trash should have an 80 to hit, where having a 70 AC gives you 50% protection. Most anyone can build for 70 AC (but they have to give up DPS, and gear slots).

The dedicated AC tank builds will still try to get to 90-95 AC for the boss fights. So there's still a reason to go for max AC, and nwo there's also a reason to go for decent AC.

Yes, 60 and below, might as well just be 0 AC... But that still opens up the range from 60-100, instead of 80-100 as it stands today.

It's OKAY that the 90 AC tanks will be "unhittable" by TRASH in epics (grazing hits do hurt). Casters will still hurt them, they can still be tripped, held, etc. They give up DPS for AC.. they should benefit from that. Casters keep all the DPS, and are basically invulnerable right now, so what's the problem with a AC melee who does so-so damage slogging his way through epics without getting hit much?

I'm also very much for the idea of mixing it up a bit, like Amrath... Put some trash in there that has a 100 to hit, and some that have a 60 to hit.

[grodon9999]

AC builds are viable at end game, with a few exceptions. That's not the issue. The problem is that AC is worthless except for AC builds because of the wide variance between the typical AC that someone can get and the AC that a focused build can achieve. When the spread between what most people can reasonably get and what a highly focused AC build has becomes too wide, the game either builds opponents that can't really hit the AC build (therefore making it an uber FotM build) or that can't miss the other builds (thereby making it pointless to bother trying to achieve any sort ofAC).

Most of the gear is relatively painless to get now compared to the dark-ages when you needed three-piece Leviks and a Chattering ring. most of the best-in-slot items are challenge gear and welfare epic.

Not building for AC is a choice.

That said . . . I don't think building for it should be the ONLY viable choice. I like options.

[Infant]

Most epic trash should have an 80 to hit, where having a 70 AC gives you 50% protection.

Isn't d20 added to the to-hit value? Then you probably meant the numbers the other way around.

[grodon9999]

Most epic trash should have an 80 to hit, where having a 70 AC gives you 50% protection. Most anyone can build for 70 AC (but they have to give up DPS, and gear slots).

You mean 60 to-hit, right? an 80 to-hit would give 90 AC a 50% miss.

I think whatever we see in Elite Amrath would work with some variation of course, some mobs higher and some lower.

[Thrudh]

You mean 60 to-hit, right? an 80 to-hit would give 90 AC a 50% miss.

I think whatever we see in Elite Amrath would work with some variation of course, some mobs higher and some lower.

Yes I meant 60 to hit..

The point is, make 70 AC worthwhile in epics. Most anyone can get that with minimal work, but they have to give up DPS and make gear choices to get it.

Keep 90-95 AC useful for boss fights.

That gives a broader range of "useful" AC at end-game.

[ainmosni]

'lower epic mob to-hit' seems to be a simple but effective solution.

yes, 100 AC toons won't get hit ... but they wont be doing much else either. as you get above the 60-70 AC mark for most builds, you start to sacrifice DPS. the game's AC mode/damage mode for most builds is very well balanced in this game, the problem lies in epic mob to-hit being balanced for the top 2%, who are generally useless in epics anyway. or at least not NEARLY as useful as a 0 AC similarly geared barbarian.

[Rhysem]

Didn't feel like re-typing or wording it so.. quote of self. 'nuff said.

I've played other games that suffer from cascading defense failure. Please no. Don't bring it here.

[Adrian99]

It seems all of the "let's talk about AC" threads are really just "make it easier to be an AC tank in epics" threads, that disguise themselves as "let's talk about AC" threads in order to seem more about overall game balance than they actually are. I believe that is a passive-aggressive strategy and so is less likely to succeed than one that gets right to the point.

[Thrudh]

It seems all of the "let's talk about AC" threads are really just "make it easier to be an AC tank in epics" threads, that disguise themselves as "let's talk about AC" threads in order to seem more about overall game balance than they actually are. I believe that is a passive-aggressive strategy and so is less likely to succeed than one that gets right to the point.

Well, that IS the problem with AC... the fact that AC is useless in epics.

AC is slightly unbalanced, but not too bad in the 1-19 game. The new defensive PrEs and new gear make it fairly easy to get a decent AC (if you build for it) in the 1-19 game.

The only problem with AC is that it then becomes worthless at end-game.

It's as big a problem as the spell-casters had in epics before the spell-pass... Casters were very verstatile in the 1-19 game, with tons of different spells that worked. You could nuke, CC, insta-kill.... You could choose a focus.

In the original epics with their super-high hit points, and immunites, all a caster could do is CC.

Right now, a perfectly viable game choice from 1-19 is (almost) completely worthless at end-game. The only place (at end-game) AC is useful is tanking non-epic raid bosses.

[Chai]

There has to be a cuttoff somewhere, it's goign to exist and it'll never be perfect. What you can do and SHOULD do is aim for "better." Perfect isn't achievable, better is.

Thats what I am getting at. In NWN and P&P, you can build a character who gets hit 40% of the time and survives. Here it seems you have to build for the full monte, or its not worth the investment.

Why chose? It's 90% gear. Swap for what's needed.

Its 100% playstyle for anyone else but the tank. Most of my toons have effective 10 AC. Anything above that is a complete accident. If the tank has 92 AC and I play correctly, I am almost invulnerable as a striker, even with effectively 10 AC. (anyone who is trying to do damage but not take aggro).

Why choose? Why build for AC when its not used in play unless you plan the toon to be the tank? They would have to give us a reason to. In that case scenario if I am a kensai and I toss on a shield I should notice a survivability increase for the damage sacrifice I just made, for instance.

[Thrudh]

Thats what I am getting at. In NWN and P&P, you can build a character who gets hit 40% of the time and survives. Here it seems you have to build for the full monte, or its not worth the investment.

I don't know if that's true... At one point, my AC guy was getting hit 50% of the time by devils in Amrath and only 5% of the time by the orthans. That was useful AC and worth the investment (I guess that was technically around 75% protection, since only half the mobs could hit me 50%).

But I remember people saying you need X AC for Amrath (in order to be 100% safe from both devils and orthans), and I found that, in truth, X-10 AC was still very solid defense (especially if you played smart and killed the dangerous devils first)

In that case scenario if I am a kensai and I toss on a shield I should notice a survivability increase for the damage sacrifice I just made, for instance.

That would be a DR re-work (shields should grant passive DR in my opinion). But I agree that if a kensai swapped to a shield, and a couple other AC items, he should notice a real difference in protection.

[grodon9999]

Why choose? Why build for AC when its not used in play unless you plan the toon to be the tank? They would have to give us a reason to. In that case scenario if I am a kensai and I toss on a shield I should notice a survivability increase for the damage sacrifice I just made, for instance.

because the game isn't one-size-fits all. Versatility is pro, not a con.

Do you ever solo or short-man stuff? Have you ever joined a bad pug where you thought you're be a "striker" and then all of a sudden you're now the "tank?"

You're talking about a monk which almost needs to actively TRY to not have AC. You need 15 DEX anyway for TWFing and if you dump wisdom you're building your toon wrong. You're an easy to get robe, a prot 5 item, barkskin pot, and a shield clickie away from viable defense (in non-epic content).

Pure fighter? not as easy, but it's not that hard to get in splash-build that put out 95% as much damage. if you need that 5% more DPS than so be it, you are choosing to build with no defense.

You can STILL get a TWFing kensai, pure fighter in heavy armor to over a 70 if you chose to do so while TWFing.

[grodon9999]

The only problem with AC is that it then becomes worthless at end-game.

That's not 100% true, though I think it's the largest issues it's not the only issue. There are three big ones:

1. AC is worthless in "EPICs"
2. The range of useful AC is too narrow.
3. Gear-related disparity between pajamas and heavy armor.

[Thrudh]

Yeah, AC is pretty easy to get in the 1-19 game...

The only reason more people don't do it is because it's worthless in epics.

[Thrudh]

That's not 100% true, though I think it's the largest issues it's not the only issue. There are three big ones:

1. AC is worthless in "EPICs"
2. The range of useful AC is too narrow.
3. Gear-related disparity between pajamas and heavy armor.

I agree with 1 and 2... My suggestion above tries to deal with that.

I'm not sure I agree with #3... AC seems about the same between the two groups.

Pajamas (monk splashes) can't use shields, so that's one place you you balance out heavy armor with pajamas.

[Thrudh]

Seriously, it's not that hard to fix the AC problem...

We could come up with neat elaborate systems that change how damage is dealt, or dice are rolled...

Or...

We just lower the to-hit of the monsters in epics.

(And maybe add some passive stacking DR to shields)

[grodon9999]

Pajamas (monk splashes) can't use shields, so that's one place you you balance out heavy armor with pajamas.

I'm not thinking about tank builds as much as I am people just wearing armor, like kensais and stuff like that.

In my opinion a fighter 20 (kensai) who CHOOSES a few feats and gear slots should be able to get the same AC as a Fighter 18/monk 2 (also kensai) who's in pajamas.

let me crunch some numbers and get back to you on this . . . let me figure out what's possible.

[Cyr]

Seriously, it's not that hard to fix the AC problem...

We could come up with neat elaborate systems that change how damage is dealt, or dice are rolled...

Or...

We just lower the to-hit of the monsters in epics.

(And maybe add some passive stacking DR to shields)

Yeah, that does nothing to fix #2 though. The range of useful AC still is stuck on the d20.

If you agree that #2 is an issue then any real fix needs to expand this range somehow.