Lets' Talk: AC

[Infant]

Point 11 first . . . no, just no. Non ful-BAB classes have a hard enough of a time getting their to-hit to matter. All that would do make anything that isn't a full-****** DPS a waste of a party slot.

Yes.

[jwdaniels]

We have a balancing mechanism for this already . . . it's called grazing hits. On elite it doesn't matter, you take damage. There is no such thing as invulnerable.

Grazing hits really don't inflict a significant enough amount of damage to matter, unless you're harried and surrounded by a dozen (or more) trash mobs - a little DR on top of that AC goes a long way.

[grodon9999]

Grazing hits really don't inflict a significant enough amount of damage to matter, unless you're harried and surrounded by a dozen (or more) trash mobs - a little DR on top of that AC goes a long way.

On elite? I'm sorry you're wrong. Elite grazes in say amrath hit for 20+. 10 DR from stoneskin helps a great deal but you still take damage, need heals, and can get killed if things get wonky.

But I suppose it's better to have somebody who grinded AC gear for a year+ be completely worthless, right?

[brightfang]

11. increase mob AC.... I know this thread is about making AC work for us but have you stopped to think that almost all meles never turn powerattack off outside of certain epics.

One problem. What about players who already struggled with mob AC? Are they to become worthless?

[jwdaniels]

On elite? I'm sorry you're wrong. Elite grazes in say amrath hit for 20+. 10 DR from stoneskin helps a great deal but you still take damage, need heals, and can get killed if things get wonky.

But I suppose it's better to have somebody who grinded AC gear for a year+ be completely worthless, right?

If you have 600 HP and a DR of 10, you can get grazed 60 times before you hit 0 HP - that's plenty of time for some healing, and even chugging pots can stay ahead of that.

I don't recall ever saying that grinding AC gear should be useless - I did say that the top AC should not make a character invulnerable because that's no fun for anyone. Regardless, the spread between a top-geared AC toon and an AC-dumping barbarian while raged shouldn't approach 100.

[Chai]

There has to be some danger from trash for even high AC characters or else 99% of the game will be incredibly boring. Also, if you think the whole "400 HP or kicked" mentality is bad, then making anyone unhittable by trash is a terrible idea. If, for example, a 70 AC made you unhittable by anything except named opponents then good luck finding a group with an AC of 69 or less.

The danger for a high AC toon is caster mobs. I think the entire fear of having "unhittable toons" is overstated when taking the current game into consideration.

If I had a 138 AC fighter or paladin tank for instance, I could accomplish alot in epic content. I would still not be as powerful as a similarly geared caster though. It would take far more time for that tank to solo their way through the same epic it takes far less time for similarly geared casters to do so. So why is there still a fear that an overgeared melee would be OP to epic trash. Overgeared casters are still far more OP to the same trash.

Heck my bard is one song away from stopping them all in their tracks for ~4 minutes.

Epic trash has to be dangerous? It isnt dangerous to most other classes and build options. But for some reason there is still this fear of making it "trivial" for AC builds as well - to the point where Turbine codes butt naked riding a zebra ogres with 110+ AB.

Game balance requires that opponents be able to hit the best AC.

This makes it so that everyone without the "best AC" has effectively 'no AC" - this is not a demonstration of game balance, as you outline below.

The incredible variance between the best and the worst AC determines that most AC values are completely useless. The d20 system basically requires that all of the target numbers you're rolling against are somewhat close or else it completely breaks down - the AC system in DDO is just a very clear illustration of this flaw.

They made their own bed on that issue shortly after the vale was released, and continued to do so. Now the issue has been allowed to continue for too long. If a character needs 92 AC to not be hit in a specific encounter, then 72 AC might as well be 10 AC.

I was just playing NWN on a PW the other day, and noticed I was getting hit alot, so I tossed ona shield that gave me 4 AC, and was able to survive through encounters I could not survive through before.

Of course, the question then becomes "what happens when someone makes a bard/RDD/PM that has 100+ AC? The answer is Ice storm, heh. It doesnt roll to hit.

AC builds do have a weakness. Its just not melee damage.

[Cyr]

If you have 600 HP and a DR of 10, you can get grazed 60 times before you hit 0 HP - that's plenty of time for some healing, and even chugging pots can stay ahead of that.

That is kind of the point. If the AC buys you nada, like in epics, then it is a waste to build for it and have gear slots devoted to it.

[grodon9999]

If you have 600 HP and a DR of 10, you can get grazed 60 times before you hit 0 HP - that's plenty of time for some healing, and even chugging pots can stay ahead of that.

I don't recall ever saying that grinding AC gear should be useless - I did say that the top AC should not make a character invulnerable because that's no fun for anyone.

Invulnerable doesn't exist, perpetuating the myth is ridiculous. Sure on normal or casual but not on elite.

You wannt know what's invulnerable to trash? My 0 AC pale-master that can kill anything from a distance or kite and never have to get into melee range. Way more invulnerable than my 100 AC paladin or 95 AC fighter.

Regardless, the spread between a top-geared AC toon and an AC-dumping barbarian while raged shouldn't approach 100.

Why? If the person CHOOSES to dump AC completely that's their fault.

I agree that a wider range of AC should be viable, I would prefer to see a 2-40 to-hit variable instead of 1-20. but if a person makes a choice to build a dumped-AC toon that's their choice.

[Nibor]

it is pointless to have these threads until Turbine posts their official one and tells us what they are thinking.

This is really the important point. The enhancements thread took off because Turbine explained "We're changing things, here's the general system we're considering, please comment".

Just throwing in every idea under the sun for AC isn't focused enough to be useful. We need a starting point - what Turbine is considering to assist. Maybe AC reaches an effective cap and everything above that turns into some DR factor. Maybe you tone down a lot of the AC options, and make it easier to reach the "theoretical max" standing AC, but better gear instead consolidates slots better. Maybe you just link AC and Fortification so that your AC gives you a cap on your Fortification, which provides another incentive to have AC, even if you're still getting hit by a 2. Maybe some other wacky idea. So many of the options are completely incompatible with each other that we need to have a starting place of which direction they want to go, and our input helps define how the changes they propose will impact our gameplay, and uncover any issues with it that they haven't considered.

[belaf52]

Did someone already suggest somethings like extra damage for a cetain gap between our AC and the hit numbers of the mobs? Let's say that's if a hit score by a more then 10, certain damage is added to the hit.

+11->x extra damage or +x% damage
+12->y extra damage or +y% damage (y>x)
...

PC could get this kind of bonus too, but less important since the grazing hits of the mobs are less important then PC.

[sephiroth1084]

Grodon, I thought you were abstaining from this discussion until we saw what the devs had in mind so far.

On the topic of invulnerability, grazing hits from hard-hitting monsters like raid bosses are absolutely still a major risk.

In addition to that, so is spell damage, and in the case of LoB, so is getting stunned or caught in a whirlwind.

Have 95% miss chance from AC does not render you invulnerable, and while it may make healing much easier, and the raid easier, remember that to get to enough AC, HP and hate to fill the role takes a ton of planning, grinding and some luck, and then even once you get all the gear, tanking still takes some skill. Vs. trash, who cares if nothing can touch you? While I think casters will get balanced a bit at some point, the fact remains that they can, and really should be able to kill most trash with almost zero risk to themselves, and do so much faster than a turtle can.

[grodon9999]

Grodon, I thought you were abstaining from this discussion until we saw what the devs had in mind so far.

Abstaining from presenting MY ideas, not torpedoing other people's bad ones

[Chai]

Invulnerable doesn't exist, perpetuating the myth is ridiculous. Sure on normal or casual but not on elite.

You wannt know what's invulnerable to trash? My 0 AC pale-master that can kill anything from a distance or kite and never have to get into melee range. Way more invulnerable than my 100 AC paladin or 95 AC fighter.

Yeap exactly.

Why? If the person CHOOSES to dump AC completely that's their fault.

I agree that a wider range of AC should be viable, I would prefer to see a 2-40 to-hit variable instead of 1-20. but if a person makes a choice to build a dumped-AC toon that's their choice.

If I need 92 AC to be hit on a 20 only, normally 72 AC is then worthless - The only people who will build for AC are those who want to go the full monte.

Doubling the range makes 52 and below worthless. My monk has an accidental AC of 55 unbuffed. At this point I am in the range where its now a decision for how I want to build - getting hit less or doing more damage. Before it was just "build for DPS, and play like a striker", letting someone else take aggro then throwing down the stuns and damage.

[grodon9999]

If I need 92 AC to be hit on a 20 only, normally 72 AC is then worthless - The only people who will build for AC are those who want to go the full monte.

There has to be a cuttoff somewhere, it's goign to exist and it'll never be perfect. What you can do and SHOULD do is aim for "better." Perfect isn't achievable, better is.

Doubling the range makes 52 and below worthless. My monk has an accidental AC of 55 unbuffed. At this point I am in the range where its now a decision for how I want to build - getting hit less or doing more damage. Before it was just "build for DPS, and play like a striker", letting someone else take aggro then throwing down the stuns and damage.

Why chose? It's 90% gear. Swap for what's needed.

[Cyr]

There has to be a cuttoff somewhere, it's goign to exist and it'll never be perfect.

I have demonstrated numerous times that there does not need to be a cutoff. Stop stating this when it is not true.

[grodon9999]

I have demonstrated numerous times that there does not need to be a cutoff. Stop stating this when it is not true.

Yeah, but I never understood your explanations.

[jwdaniels]

Why chose? It's 90% gear. Swap for what's needed.

Every time you swap in your AC gear you're swapping out something else - hence choosing. Whether it's a temporary choice or a more permanent one, you still are forced to choose between 'enough AC to matter and not much else' or 'no AC and the ability to hit hard.'

[Cyr]

Yeah, but I never understood your explanations.

Here is the really TLDR version.

It's a bell curve on a graph with one axis (x-axis) as mob to hit roll (with center of the bell curve at mob's base to hit + 10) and the other axis as the percentage chance for that exact to hit roll (remember you hit all AC's of that number or lower with that roll). Instead of rolling a d20 (or twice as you state) the game just rolls a percentage chance with a few decimal places which is trivial for a computer to do and from that determines what AC the mob rolled to hit.

Basically it would be much more common for a mob to roll very close to it's to hit +10 then it would for it to roll more or less with it becoming less and less likely as you get farther away.

Do a quick search for the term 'bell curve' I am sure there will be tons of graphs that come up that you can then visually see what I am talking about here.

I am going to try and post an image of it...link is first if that does not work

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=...9QEwBw&dur=444

[Kilnedric]

You did this again? Ridiculous. It's pointless and annoying to make a Let's Talk thread when YOU ARE NOT A DEV. Call your threads something else.

[Thrudh]

ok heres my opinion on how to fix ac.. its not prety, its not nice, its brutal - but im fairly sure it will work


1. remove stacking of 'dodge' bonuses, highest applies.
2. change all 'insight bonuses' to dodge bonuses.
3. class abilities and feats that grant either dodge or insight bonuses now grant 'stacking untyped bonus'
4. change monks wiz bonus to ac to be capped by number of monk lvls.
5. change icy raiments to grant 'armour bonus 8' and 'dodge bonus 3'
6. change all spells that grant ac benefits to 'moralle type' - highest applies, non stacking.
7. change heavy armour, medium armour and light armour to grant DR of 3/- 2/- and 1/- respectively. +1 for adamantine.(fully stacking - adds to warforge adamantine DR and barb/FVS DR.)
8. change sheilds to grant DR - 3/- for tower, 2/- for hvy and 1/- for light (fully stacking - adds to warforge adamantine DR and barb/FVS DR.)
9. reduce to hit of enemies by a significant amount. Id suggest to hit be roughly equal to CR+str or dex mod +d20.
10. reduce to hit of epic mobs even further, infact just reduce their CR and thus hitdie. feel free to give them buffs to represent equiped items or just spell buffs. Give them feats like metamagics, give them prestiges. If a pen and paper DM threw a CR35 wolf at a lvl 20 character hed get a slice of pizza in the face.
11. increase mob AC.... I know this thread is about making AC work for us but have you stopped to think that almost all meles never turn powerattack off outside of certain epics.
12. Have multiple enemies in the same quest that have vastly differing to hit scores - shavarath already does this. This way a high ac guy is still going to get hurt but not by every one.

I think the only reason AC seems pointless to most folks is because mob to hit is obscene, and the reson for that is SOME characters can get crazy AC scores.

A general toning down of available stacking sources of AC coupled with mob to hit scores is what is needed. Im truly sorry for all those people who have ground out items that would be effected by this but I honestly feel a scorched earth policy is the only way.

I think these are decent ideas. especially #12