Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[dylan25]

if it would help to keep builds who whould fail after this could we keep the old setup for the enhancements at the same time of the new ones just decide which one wed like to use

[dylan25]

Why, because he wants to play something that doesn't fit in the current definition of a tank? This is D&D, any well thought out character should have the ability to handle pretty much any build it is designed for. Isn't that what everyone has been asking for, not to turn into WoW with its limitations and restrictions?

i agree with you my soultion is to choose when you make your car what one youd like to use

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

if it would help to keep builds who whould fail after this could we keep the old setup for the enhancements at the same time of the new ones just decide which one wed like to use

Thats a great sentiment but be redonkulous to balance, unnecessarily confusing for the playerbase at large, and hellish to code .

You do bring up a very good talking point in the process. It would probably assist the devs if people would come up with builds that they feel will be completely impossible under the new system, forever breaking their toon.

[boomer70]

I didn't ignore your list. I pulled the emerald build as the first one to take a good look at and my forum log in timed out after trying to respond, losing the response.

I was planning on looking at more when I get more time.

What I found with the emerald build was the following key enhancements per the build post:
Enhancements:
Racial Toughness 3
Fighter Toughness 2
Ninja 2
Defender 1
Touch of Death
Half Elf Rogue Dex
Racial Dex
Racial Con
Greater Mountain Stance
Human Heal Amp 2
Monk Heal Amp 2

Fighter only has stalwart defender I toughness and paladin has no enhancements listed in the build at all. I wouldn't be surprised if multiple fighter trees had fighter toughness but if it's anywhere it's in stalwart defender, leaving only 1 fighter tree that would need to be used.

Touch of death would be most likely a ninja spy enhancements and the ninja spy is a listed PrE, so that's an obvious tree. Monk healing amp is a requirement for shintao so likely in that tree. I suspect mountain stance might be in henshin so it's possible to be giving up 1 key enhancement.

In exchange 8 AP are freed on PrE costs, more on the removed AP's for them (some of which are not listed in the build I noticed), and more AP from tiered enhancement costs being replace with point for point costs. The loss of 1 key enhancement will be replaced with AP from the cost of that enhancement plus additional freed up AP to add more enhancements than were lost plus either the Henshin or Shintao PrE abilities, whichever tree is selected.

The build only has 11 key enhancements and 7/11 of them are monk and race enhancements. The current AP costs are tied up in increased tiers of the same enhancements and there appears to be very little negative impact moving this build to a 3 tree lock with a fair bit of gain.

I would suspect, looking at this 20-30 AP in ninja spy, 10-15 in stalwart defender, 15-20 in helf race, 15-25 in one of the other 2 monk trees.

I expected worse, tbh, with 12 monk levels but this looks like an easy adjustment to 3 trees.

I am glad you think it would be an easy adjustment. However it would totally break the build. This build is designed to take advantage of mountain stance to tank. Could it still be viable? Possible but it is not a trivial change, "Oh just drop those enhancements and pick something else". When a central feature of your builds purpose for being is not available you have to reevaluate the entire build.

This build does not in any way support your argument in fact quite the reverse. I think blithely dismissing the impact these changes would have on this build shows you clearly don't understand the issue people have with these changes.

I am not saying that just because any one build gets broken this is a horrible change. It is a horrible change regardless if everyone was given LR+20 tokens because this change will limit build choices going forward for no good reason. This build would be trivial to do if there was no 3 tree limit. I don't believe this build is ridiculously OP now so why make changes to invalidate it?

[Failedlegend]

I didn't ignore your list.

I pulled the emerald build as the first one to take a good look at and my forum log in timed out after trying to respond, losing the response.

Oh sorry I meant to type "missed" there

I expected worse, tbh, with 12 monk levels but this looks like an easy adjustment to 3 trees.

Well no really you dropped Earth Stance like in was nothing but in reality its a HUGE part of the build and the new systems causes it lose that or other critical enhancements

So this one would need at LEAST 4 Trees to function

Here's your next response. This one is a bit tougher to pull off because we were told extra song was going into virt and most people suspect wand and scroll mastery to be going into spellsinger so a pure bard could be going to run into not having some of these bard enhancements too.

How does this affect a pure bard...they have access to all three PrEs

you did not post the enhancement lists for any of the builds as requested

Sorry I missed that part I'll add the enhancement lists for the rest after I'm done replyiung to this

I wanted popular builds.

Why? Only popular builds will be affected by the change?

Bard 16 fighter 2 barbarian 2 has variations. This one does use a fair number of enhancements from several areas and would need to be trimmed.

Heh you haven't even started and you already agree that the new system will cause this build to lose alot.

Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I Virt tree. Gone but only 1 AP spent.
Enhancement: Bard Perform I I have no idea which tree this would be in. Only 1 AP and small loss.
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I This could go.
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I This could go.
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Reduction Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Bard Energy of the Music I This looks like it would be in the spellsinger tree.
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II This is no longer a requirement.
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I Virt tree
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Trap Sense I This could go.
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Bard Wand Mastery IV
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack III
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Bard Song Magic III

This one might have some concessions but I can see options and most of the main points are still in tact while adding the spellsinger PrE.

So my count is lots of important things from Virtuoso, Spellsinger, One or Two Barbarian PrEs, One or Two Fighter PrEs and of course Warchanter...thats at LEAST 5 if not 7.

Why, because he wants to play something that doesn't fit in the current definition of a tank? This is D&D, any well thought out character should have the ability to handle pretty much any build it is designed for. Isn't that what everyone has been asking for, not to turn into WoW with its limitations and restrictions?

On one hand I have no problem with it like I said my Arcane Knight (Dwarven Wiz12/Fighter6/Rogue2) would LOVE it but on the other hand it makes races ALOT more important in the scheme of builds which I don't like. I'd also much prefer actual Racial PrEs it just makes alot more sense and they could be made to supplement other PrEs instead of imitate them.

You do bring up a very good talking point in the process. It would probably assist the devs if people would come up with builds that they feel will be completely impossible under the new system, forever breaking their toon.

Well we've already determined the Genghis Khan (Bard16/Fighter2/Barb2), Emerald (Monk12/Fighter6/Rogue2) and my Arcane Tank (Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2) are destroyed by this change...I'm working on some more

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

snip

Excuse me failed. I built and actually play the Genghis build. I chose each aspect of that build to serve a purpose in relation to my playstyle.

I am telling you not only is the build not broken, but its probably going to come out ahead. I lose NOTHING I needed, and potentially gain perks from ravager or kensei PrEs and spellsinger.

I will not speak for the other builds (because they are not my creations) but Genghis is not only going to not be broken, but be just as effective (if not more) and be even more fun to play when Im done.

And if you'd like to challenge me on this Failed, please visit my thread in August 2012 (or whenever this goes live), and I'll show you exactly how its done.

[dkyle]

Excuse me failed. I built and actually play the Genghis build. I chose each aspect of that build to serve a purpose in relation to my playstyle.

I am telling you not only is the build not broken, but its probably going to come out ahead. I lose NOTHING I needed, and potentially gain perks from ravager or kensei PrEs and spellsinger.

But can you be so confident you won't gain less than pure Bard and 18bard/2{Ftr, Barb, or Rog) builds?

I have little doubt that many multis will gain more than they lose, compared to the current system, just because so many new enhancements are being added. My concern is how deeper multis will fare compared to pure and 18/2 builds.

[twinangel89]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

Out with the old, in with the new. I can't wait for the tree system to be implemented... Although it might suck having to re-spend all my action points, I'm actually looking forward to it because my level 7 halfling paladin needs it... Badly. I'm hoping to keep the dragonmark of healing though.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

But can you be so confident you won't gain less than pure Bard and 18bard/2{Ftr, Barb, or Rog) builds?

I have little doubt that many multis will gain more than they lose, compared to the current system, just because so many new enhancements are being added. My concern is how deeper multis will fare compared to pure and 18/2 builds.

Yeah honestly Dkyle, I lose nothing at all imperative (In Aash's example, I'd lose fluff, grant it, its fluff I used to be better well rounded ) but I gain new aspects that arent fluff, that will really fortify this build. Now I cant say all 16/2/2 builds are safe, but I believe most will be. Genghis I know will be safe, and potentially is in line to score even more.

As far as how Genghis will stack vs 18/2 bards and pures, we don't know that yet. It's too early to know for sure. If I'm able to keep the 16/2/2 split I have the potential to really be sitting pretty. But then again, I have built many 18/2 and pures for people their may and/or should be advantages for going that way as well. Bards are really so customizable, so long as we have more options, I believe bards across the board (for the most part) will be gaining. (Remember we get the finished PrEs as well).

Oh and if Mad is reading... please... moar bard spells!!!

[dkyle]

Yeah honestly Dkyle, I lose nothing at all imperative (In Aash's example, I'd lose fluff, grant it, its fluff I used to be better well rounded ) but I gain new aspects that arent fluff, that will really fortify this build. Now I cant say all 16/2/2 builds are safe, but I believe most will be. Genghis I know will be safe, and potentially is in line to score even more.

As far as how Genghis will stack vs 18/2 bards and pures, we don't know that yet. It's too early to know for sure. If I'm able to keep the 16/2/2 split I have the potential to really be sitting pretty. But then again, I have built many 18/2 and pures for people their may and/or should be advantages for going that way as well. Bards are really so customizable, so long as we have more options, I believe bards across the board (for the most part) will be gaining. (Remember we get the finished PrEs as well).

How can you "know" that Genghis will be safe, if you don't know yet how it will compare to 18/2 and pures? The viability of a build lies in comparison to other possible build choices. If pures and 18/2 builds gain much more than Genghis gains, then the viability of Genghis would be in question.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Ok let me look at this.. grant it, not my build... and I said I wouldnt do it... but its such a good build that a lot of people play. So, what the hell!

I didn't ignore your list. I pulled the emerald build as the first one to take a good look at and my forum log in timed out after trying to respond, losing the response.

I was planning on looking at more when I get more time.

What I found with the emerald build was the following key enhancements per the build post:
Enhancements:
Racial Toughness 3
Fighter Toughness 2
Ninja 2
Defender 1
Touch of Death
Half Elf Rogue Dex
Racial Dex
Racial Con
Greater Mountain Stance
Human Heal Amp 2
Monk Heal Amp 2

Fighter only has stalwart defender I toughness and paladin has no enhancements listed in the build at all. I wouldn't be surprised if multiple fighter trees had fighter toughness but if it's anywhere it's in stalwart defender, leaving only 1 fighter tree that would need to be used.

Touch of death would be most likely a ninja spy enhancements and the ninja spy is a listed PrE, so that's an obvious tree. Monk healing amp is a requirement for shintao so likely in that tree. I suspect mountain stance might be in henshin so it's possible to be giving up 1 key enhancement.

In exchange 8 AP are freed on PrE costs, more on the removed AP's for them (some of which are not listed in the build I noticed), and more AP from tiered enhancement costs being replace with point for point costs. The loss of 1 key enhancement will be replaced with AP from the cost of that enhancement plus additional freed up AP to add more enhancements than were lost plus either the Henshin or Shintao PrE abilities, whichever tree is selected.

The build only has 11 key enhancements and 7/11 of them are monk and race enhancements. The current AP costs are tied up in increased tiers of the same enhancements and there appears to be very little negative impact moving this build to a 3 tree lock with a fair bit of gain.

I would suspect, looking at this 20-30 AP in ninja spy, 10-15 in stalwart defender, 15-20 in helf race, 15-25 in one of the other 2 monk trees.

I expected worse, tbh, with 12 monk levels but this looks like an easy adjustment to 3 trees.

I agree with Aash here. I am beginning to create a simple formula for morphing these old builds into the new system.

1. Lay out all your enhancements.

2. Then look for losses. Losses become AP for new abilities. The sweetest spot would be to lose little, yet have the AP to gain something sweeter, all while not minimizing or eliminating the build's original concept.

3. Invest freed action points from lost enhancements/lower costs due to new system to training in new or improved areas.

Looking at the Emerald build, stats/gear are unaffected so hp are safe. Class split, gear and stats ensure saves are safe. I see the potential for gains here through a windfall of newly available AP. I think Emerald builds are fairly safe at this point, and potentially have something to look forward to in the new system.

[dkyle]

Looking at the Emerald build, stats/gear are unaffected so hp are safe. Class split, gear and stats ensure saves are safe. I see the potential for gains here through a windfall of newly available AP. I think emerald builds are fairly safe at this point.

And, again, that build is unlikely to lose much compared to the current system (assuming Earth stance doesn't become Henshin-only), but it'll be going up against pure 20 Monks, with SDIII via Racial PrE. It's hard for me to expect that a 14Monk/6Fighter with NSII/SDI is going to stack up well against a pure 20 Monk with SDIII/NSII (potentially even III).

And taking KensaiI on that multi won't be an option, unless you're willing to give up the healing amp from the Shintao tree.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

vs 20 Monk

A 20 monk is a completely different ballgame. We cannot accurately compare splits to each other or pures at this point, we still need to see the smallprint. But, I cant imagine a mixed class monk with 800+ hp, 40+ saves, 90+ AC with an abundance of DPS and further gains from the new trees have a whole lot to worry about!

I just dont see the Emerald as broken at this point. And thats because he relies on much more then just enhancements. One way or another, we are going to have to wait to know for sure.

[grodon9999]

So those of you who understand this better than me . . . would my non-hypothetical 18/1/1 human ranger be able to take his full Tempest III from class, Stalwart III from human (assuming the feat requirements are the same, Dodge overlaps for both), and a smidgeon for rogue so I could me sneak attack bonus and haste boost (though it looks like Tempest is getting that anyway from what was leaked)?

[boomer70]

And, again, that build is unlikely to lose much compared to the current system (assuming Earth stance doesn't become Henshin-only), but it'll be going up against pure 20 Monks, with SDIII via Racial PrE. It's hard for me to expect that a 14Monk/6Fighter with NSII/SDI is going to stack up well against a pure 20 Monk with SDIII/NSII (potentially even III).

And taking KensaiI on that multi won't be an option, unless you're willing to give up the healing amp from the Shintao tree.

Monks are actually a pretty good example of how forcing all enhancements into 3 trees per class is not going to work very well.

If the trees are based on the ToD set names and we gain Henshin in addition to the existing Shintao and Ninja you are going to have a pretty hard time figuring out how to divide up enhancements. If the Shintao and Ninja lines are predicated on Dark/Light path as they are currently then monks are locked out of 1/3 of all the enhancements. If they are not you are losing a whole lot of flavor of the Light/Dark concept.

[boomer70]

So those of you who understand this better than me . . . would my non-hypothetical 18/1/1 human ranger be able to take his full Tempest III from class, Stalwart III from human (assuming the feat requirements are the same, Dodge overlaps for both), and a smidgeon for rogue so I could me sneak attack bonus and haste boost (though it looks like Tempest is getting that anyway from what was leaked)?

The simple answer is maybe

If there is a three tree limit the exact split you are talking about might be possible depending on exact numbers prereqs etc. However that would be all your trees so anything that isn't in tempest (e.g. favored enemy bonuses) would be locked out. Might end up a net gain for your build but it would certainly play very differently than it does today.

[dkyle]

A 20 monk is a completely different ballgame. We cannot accurately compare splits to each other or pures at this point, we still need to see the smallprint.

If we cannot compare builds to each other at this point, then we cannot make claims about what multis will remain viable.

You can't have it both ways. The viability of deep multis is entirely dependent on how they compare to pures and splashes.

But, I do think we can compare builds to each other at this point. And we must to have any hope of a useful discussion. I think it's far more likely that a pure 20 Monk with SDIII and NSII will overshadow a splut with SDII and NSI, than for it to be the other way around. Guaranteed? Of course not. Nothing in this thread is guaranteed. But discussions of likelyhoods are the best way to analyze the info we have, and give meaningful feedback.

But, I cant imagine a mixed class monk with 800+ hp, 40+ saves, 90+ AC with an abundance of DPS and further gains from the new trees have a whole lot to worry about!

I can.

A pure Monk with about as much HP (less base HP and feats available for toughnesses, but 20% HP boost instead of 10%, and higher CON [net +5 from SDIII and Earth IV]), strictly higher saves, strictly higher AC, more damage percent mitigation (20% instead of 15%), more DPS (larger damage die, SDIII instead of SDII, NS II or III instead of NS I), much more threat amp, DR 10/Epic and Abundant Step (relevant to tanking, and big "fun" factor).

I just dont see the Emerald as broken at this point. And thats because he relies on much more then just enhancements. One way or another, we are going to have to wait to know for sure.

He does? Strip out the enhancements, and I wouldn't give that split a second thought. I'd consider it inferior to pure Monk or pure Fighter (or possibly 18/2 Fighter/Monk) in basically every way. The combination of enhancements is absolutely core to that build. Without them, it's nothing.

[Failedlegend]

you did not post the enhancement lists for any of the builds as requested

Ok I'm gonna get started...I'll be editing this post when I'm done so bear with me

Remember all my below statements are guesses on whats in which enhancements ends up where but its the best we can do right now.

Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2 (PM2/SD1) "Arcane Knight"

Now let's see enhancements

Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I Stalwart
Enhancement: Rogue Damage Boost I Likely Assassin
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II Kensai
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I Mech
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I 
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I  Stalwart
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I  Stalwart
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Empowering III Wild Mage?
Enhancement: Wizard Improved Maximizing III Wild Mage?
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I Stalwart
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II Stalwart
Enhancement: Improved Open Lock I Mech
Enhancement: Improved Search I Mech
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation I 
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation I
Enhancement: Storm Manipulation I
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation I
Unsure but their likely going to be split up
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I Archmage?
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar II Archmage?
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence II
Probably all 3
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II  Kensai
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II Stalwart
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery I 
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery II 
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master II Palemaster
Enhancement: Shroud of the Wraith Palemaster
Enhancement: Shroud of the Zombie Palemaster

Ok so let's that tallies up to Palemaster, Stalwart, Kensai, Archmage, Wild Mage, Mech and possibly Assassin...so that 6 Trees..possibly 7.....yep that one is broke

Sorc16/Paladin2/Rogue2 "Tukaw"

max in fire/cold
40% in force, max lineage of force (9% crit) but none in boost crit
sneak damage bonus +3
full wf power attack (-8 +16)
skill boost +2
haste boost
1 inscribe armor
+3 cha, +1 dex, +1 con, +40 hp (30 racial and 10 pally)

OK this one is a little less fleshed out..but here goes

Damage spells are likely to be split up so that Wild Mage, Palemaster & Archmage than he has HP boost from Defender of Syberis, than there's rogue haste boost which is likely Acrobat and SKill boost which is mech, SA Boost yeah thats Assassin.

So Tukaw clocks in at 7 Trees...yep that one is broken



Ok next up lets go with its Wizard cousin the "Mind Filleter"

Monk12/Wiz7/Fighter1

Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I Kensai
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I Kensai
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise III
Enhancement: Touch of Death Ninja Spy
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II Shintao
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II Ninja Spy
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Master of Bonfires
These ones a little hard to place
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Balance IV
Enhancement: Improved Concentration IV
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Acid Manipulation I
Enhancement: Frost Manipulation I
Enhancement: Storm Manipulation I
Enhancement: Flame Manipulation I
Likely a mix of all 3 wiz prestiges
Enhancement: Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Enhancement: Wizard Intelligence I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I  Stalwart
Enhancement: Wizard Wand and Scroll Mastery II
Enhancement: Wizard Pale Master I Palemaster
Enhancement: Shroud of the Zombie Palemaster

Ok when we look at Monk its really hard to place abilities but it will likely take at least 2 PrEs, than from fighter stuff we have Kensai and Stalwart and than for wizard there's at LEAST Palemaster but the elements will likely be broken up so could be all 3...so that tallies up to any where between 5 & 9 Trees...regardless this build is broken.



Want me to show more I'm pretty sure these remaining builds won't fair any better. Even if the above and below builds aren't completely broken they at LEAST lose ALOT...and honestly there's no reason NOT to remove the 3 Tree Limit.....its your turn guys now that I proved builds WILL be broken or at least brought down to a few rungs. Now prove to me that there's reason NOT to unlock it (and no your "options" math is bubcus try something else)

Rogue13/Favored Soul6/Monk1 (Acro2/AoV1) "Favoured Pole"

Rogue13/Monk6/Fighter1 (Acro2/NS1) "Ugly Stick"

Monk12/Fighter6/Rogue2 (NS2/Kensai1) "Monkcher"

Arty8/Rogue6/Ranger6 (BE1/Mech1/DWS1) "Long-shot"

He does? Strip out the enhancements, and I wouldn't give that split a second thought. I'd consider it inferior to pure Monk or pure Fighter (or possibly 18/2 Fighter/Monk) in basically every way. The combination of enhancements is absolutely core to that build. Without them, it's nothing.

Also the only system that is changing is enhancements so debating anything outside of that is frankly unrelated.

[Scraap]

So those of you who understand this better than me . . . would my non-hypothetical 18/1/1 human ranger be able to take his full Tempest III from class, Stalwart III from human (assuming the feat requirements are the same, Dodge overlaps for both), and a smidgeon for rogue so I could me sneak attack bonus and haste boost (though it looks like Tempest is getting that anyway from what was leaked)?

Short answer: Potentially.

The basic math supports 2 tier 3s in one of 3 combos: tempest capstone, stalwart capstone, or skipping both for more points to blow elsewhere. 1 rogue gets tricky. SA bonus and alacrity may be 1 tree, or could be 2, and a lack of any skill amps and boosts boosts presumes either disinterest in attempting that aspect, or that they keep with the status quo where those enhancements are overkill in the majority of content.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

If we cannot compare builds to each other at this point, then we cannot make claims about what multis will remain viable.

I said accurately. Yes there is a LOT of guesswork happening at this point. I thought that would be fairly obvious however after 2,900 posts!

As for which builds remain viable or gain more mojo, I used the word potentially.

As I said before, Turbine will have to give us the smallprint for us to have a better idea than we know today. Then after all that, on some toons, we will actually have to play them to ensure it feels the same, feels better or worse, and tweak where necessary.

That doesnt mean we cant talk about how actual builds may prosper/or may not prosper with what we know at this point. I would reserve talk such as ITS BROKEN! until we get more info on tree structure, access and exactly what they contain.