Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Aashrym]

This is how I did it. Usually however, it didn't (get approved).

Yeah, that tended to happen with players trying to munchkin out.

That's actually part of the issue with playing an online version. It's not like Turbine would be approving builds for balance in advance on an individual basis and why there needs to be limitations somewhere.

When I see posters arguing that they should have the right to more trees for more total options it reminds me of the munchkin builders. When it looks like there will be more than enough options already and someone still wants more the only reason for that is to munchkin build better just like those 4/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/1/1 PnP characters looking for the next Pun Pun build.

[jkm]

So one last idea here for the system:

The ability to upload xml templates that will show you the enhancements you should take.

General Requirements:

Published XML Schema for forum tools

• Enhancement Tree
• Enhancement
• Times to Take
• Level to Take

Color coding of enhancements as the character levels. These would be used on the outline of the enhancement as a visual indicator.

• Yellow - To be taken
• Green - Taken at this level
• Red - Enhancement taken that isn't in the template

[Failedlegend]

I didn't ban them because some players wanted to have a lot of options and the system was set up that way. House ruling against it being possible doesn't change the fact the game rules allowed for it.

I did set the expectation that if I did not want something in my game to meet PrC requirements those individual options might not be available and to check with me on planning it out before hand on a case by case basis but that was still house ruling out some builds based on broken mechanics.

The DDO system with PrE's and 3 class limits is something I do not mind over PrC's because they still provide options, they still provide flavor, and it keeps the 4/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/1/1 munchkin building to a minimum. Having a lot of options can be good, having too many options can lead to losing control of where the end result of the build should be compared to the standard alternatives and that is where allowing everything from the PnP splat book options could turn into a balance issue.

My general rule was if it's in the PHB core rules it's fine; if it's not get it pre-approved.

I was actually trying to create a system similar to how DDO handles prestige classes althugh I called it the "Guild System" so instead of taking a level in it you needed to do certain requirements to "Join the Guild" (ie. a Black Flame Zealot would have to join "The Order of the Black Flame") and you were only allowed One but I would allow two or three if the player could roleplay how it happened.

Basically a player would build a character with 1-4ish "Base" classes than choose a "Guild" to join (we would dedicate a session to making our characters and figuring out our basic back stories) and the next session would basically be the players trying to accomplish the "Initiation Tasks" that I made up since the last session. I never fully completed it as I moved on to 4e but what I had done seemed to be well received by my players and when I finished it we were likely going to make it an official house rule.

Oh and in case you can't tell as a DM I'm very open to bending rules (even my own house rules) if someone can roleplay through it and I've continued to do so in 4e

[Chai]

Well good for you except I LOATHED people who had characters like 4/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1/1/1 it was banned from my games because it was stupid and made no sense so I removed the multiclassing xp penalty

Each different gaming table I would sit at would show another prime example of Oberoni fallacy coming into play. People house rule things in and out to fit what they were willing and not willing to allow.

Usually when I would do this it would be for a specific reason. Those reasons would have things to do with current lore, current locale, setting, available trainers, etc. It usually didnt have to do with "Im not going to allow this because its too powerful" or "I dont like optimized multiclasses because I deem them unrealistic" - but every once in a while that decision needed to be made.

The one thing I do like when games get this concept correct is the pure choice is a safe choice. A new player with little to no D&D knowledge can log on and roll up a pure 20 single class toon and still have an effective character. On the converse someone with a decent understanding of the class mechanics and how they interact can decide what type of character they want, then build for it through mixing and matching of abilities in an optimized fashion.

The point here is to allow the players to decide. Having one more powerful than the other will just push the majority of players - especially the optimizers - to the obviously more powerful incarnations. Ruling something out Oberoni style because we dont like it or we feel it should be one way is just setting limitations into place that all will not agree with. D&D (and DDO) is not a game that is played one way. Turbine has a vested interest in satisfying alot of different playstyles and preferences. If they were to put measures into place that insure pure builds will be more powerful or disallow too many options, optimizers who enjoyed multiclassing would be put off by that, as well as the cost associated with straightening out their builds they have created and geared over the years. Sure they could use a TR, but forcing that time committment onto someone who has a number of alts on their account just to make their builds viable would not be a good move to make.

When I see posters arguing that they should have the right to more trees for more total options it reminds me of the munchkin builders. When it looks like there will be more than enough options already and someone still wants more the only reason for that is to munchkin build better just like those 4/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/1/1 PnP characters looking for the next Pun Pun build.

I disagree that it would be the only reason. Versitility is not a munchkin character. The 12/6/2 helves angel is a versitility build that simply does more than a pure fighter. Theres nothing munchkin about it however. Splashing a couple levels of fighter does not make a munchkin character, and its done quite as bit with other melee classes. I understand your preference to pure builds and splashes, but not everyone plays the same style you play. To disallow builders from being able to build a certain way simply due to personal preference is not a good business decision.

Even if the "munchkin toon builders" are lined up eagerly waiting to see all these new options and how they interact, their ability to build a "munchkin toon" doesnt impact your ability to have fun playing a pure toon or splashed toon. There should be no limitations to the system due to personal preference, because the player has the ability to excersise their own personal preference within a wider set of game parameters.

Bottom line: Someone who chooses to limit vertical progression in order to take more lateral progression should be able to do so. A trade off is already being made. Limiting lateral progression through the UI is arbitrary, and hampers multiclassing because the vertical progression sacrifice is made to gain nothing laterally. Being "munchkin" or "cookie cutter" should have nothing to do with it.

[SisAmethyst]

This all sound very interesting and promising. I remember that I tryed to get the PrE as a tree in ddowiki and noticed how much hell of work that is...

However I wonder about some points:
1. How will Pastlifes intergrate into that? For certain past lifes we may get some enhancements clickies etc. that have to be integrated into this tree also. However tehy neither belong to the race nor to any of the current classes.
2. How will Half-Elf Dillies integrate into that? Are they race specific Enhancements then? They are however different to things like a Dwarven Defender Enhancement.
3. How to visualize that certain enhancements locks out other options? For example I can only have the Ranger or the Rogue boosts.

In other words this must be a pretty dynamic tree and as already noted in another post it would be then cool to have an official character planer to play arround with all possibilities. I guess that would even ease the development work or test on Lama-land if you could pre-view those choices instantly.

[Aashrym]

I disagree that it would be the only reason. Versitility is not a munchkin character. The 12/6/2 helves angel is a versitility build that simply does more than a pure fighter. Theres nothing munchkin about it however. Splashing a couple levels of fighter does not make a munchkin character, and its done quite as bit with other melee classes. I understand your preference to pure builds and splashes, but not everyone plays the same style you play. To disallow builders from being able to build a certain way simply due to personal preference is not a good business decision.

Even if the "munchkin toon builders" are lined up eagerly waiting to see all these new options and how they interact, their ability to build a "munchkin toon" doesnt impact your ability to have fun playing a pure toon or splashed toon. There should be no limitations to the system due to personal preference, because the player has the ability to excersise their own personal preference within a wider set of game parameters.

Bottom line: Someone who chooses to limit vertical progression in order to take more lateral progression should be able to do so. A trade off is already being made. Limiting lateral progression through the UI is arbitrary, and hampers multiclassing because the vertical progression sacrifice is made to gain nothing laterally. Being "munchkin" or "cookie cutter" should have nothing to do with it.

He's not limiting his vertical process by level, however, because there aren't enough AP to fill the vertical levels for anyone.

The mock up looks like each tree has about the same number of options an entire character class has now, or close to it. The versatility gained is in the ability to mix and match the trees and free PrE abilities. That provides for a lot of options and versatility when a person can choose which trees are in the list compared to not being able to choose which trees are in the list.

No pure class will be able to go very deep in multiple trees either because trying to due so still limits the higher tiers because no one will have the AP to do that. I don't have enough points to develop 4 trees to go beyond the level caps created by multiclassing any more than the multiclass level caps would be at.

Going pure means being restricted to going deep in 1 tree and spending points in the others while having a very restricted choice on what those other trees are. Going triple class means being able to go deep in the race tree and filling that out the other trees with a wide variety of the tree choices and PrE's available. That is versatility there and it's not restricted by depth going with the race tree. It's not even restricted by not being able to go deep in a class tree instead by using a race unlock. The end result is still going to be pure classes can develop one tree and supplement it, multiclasses are going to have the option of developing one main tree supplementing it with a much wider variety of options. Depth in multiple individual trees is a pipe dream.

When we are already looking at a lot of versatility (and I see A LOT of versatility in multiclassing compared to pure classing) asking for more choices is pointless when a person cannot fulfill all of the choices he or she already has except to munchkin up. What you are claiming as a need for versatility I am disagreeing with because the need for versatility is already fulfilled sufficiently with the ability to freely choose which trees will be available.

Bottom line: Someone is not choosing to limit vertical progression by multiclassing in the first place. The vertical progression is still available and heavy vertical progression in multiple trees not a real option in the first place to have given up for anyone. The versatility already exists in the choice of trees and more is not necessary. Having more choices than a person can possibly make use of but still asking for more choice is pointless unless there is a goal in place to improve the build, which is munchkin building.

I expect to have vertical limits on a pure class because I don't expect to have 150-200 AP to fill the existing number of available trees.

[Failedlegend]

Anyways back on topic...The main reason DDO can't do alot of the above is they can't do the one at a time approval or denials that DMs in PnP can which is why I can understand the need for some restriction but the 3 tree limit is too much...but if they added multiclass PrEs I think it would balance things perfectly...sure we only have access to 3 PrEs (out of 6 or 9) BUT if I take some enhancements (possibly Tier 1) Warpriest & Henshin Mystic or Warchanter & Purple Dragon Knight I can have Sacred Fist or Dread Pirate in my third Slot....or I could ignore that and take three regular prestige like Warchanter, Purple Dragon Knight and Kensai on my ummm...Fighter12/Bard8

A few examples (Some fairly open and some specific)

Swiftblade: Any Arcane w/ Haste Spell (Maybe Trans AM gets an extra bonus) + Martial

Dread Pirate: Warchanter + Purple Dragon Knight

Sacred Fist: Cleric + Monk

Arcane Trickster: Rogue Mechanic + Wizard

Eldritch Knight: Arcane + Martial (maybe limited to Elves)'

Daggerspell Mage: Rogue Assassin + Wizard

Bone Knight : Palemaster + Paladin

????????????: Arty Construct PrE + Rogue Mechanic

Corrupt Avenger: Acolyte of the Skin + Divine Avenger

Warning: Some of these names may be misspelled or not even vlose to the actual name as my 3.5e books are packed away in my attic so I'm just going off memory but you get the general idea.



Sidenote to devs: Any chance some of the new enhancements include Cleric Domains and/or more Racial weapons?

[Aashrym]

Anyways back on topic...The main reason DDO can't do alot of the above is they can't do the one at a time approval or denials that DMs in PnP can which is why I can understand the need for restriction but the 3 tree limit is TOO much...BUT if they added multiclass PrEs I think it would balance things perfectly...sure we only have access to 3 PrEs (out of 6 or 9) BUT if I take some enhancements (possibly Tier 1) Warpriest & Henshin Mystic or Warchanter & Purple Dragon Knight I can have Sacred Fist or Dread Pirate in my third Slot....or I could ignore that and take three regular prestige like Warchanter, Purple Dragon Knight and Kensai on my ummm...Fighter12/Bard8

A few examples (Some fairly open and some specific)

Swiftblade: Any Arcane w/ Haste Spell (Maybe Trans AM gets an extra bonus) + Martial

Dread Pirate: Warchanter + Purple Dragon Knight

Sacred Fist: Cleric + Monk

Arcane Trickster: Rogue Mechanic + Wizard

Eldritch Knight: Arcane + Martial (maybe limited to Elves)'

Daggerspell Mage: Rogue Assassin + Wizard

Bone Knight : Palemaster + Paladin

????????????: Arty Construct PrE + Rogue Mechanic

Corrupt Avenger: Acolyte of the Skin + Divine Avenger

Warning: Some of these names may be misspelled or not even vlose to the actual name as my 3.5e books are packed away in my attic so I'm just going off memory but you get the general idea.



Sidenote to devs: Any chance some of the new enhancements include Cleric Domains and/or more Racial weapons?

I think unlocking a PrE tree option to swap in that is not available without locking in 2 existing trees from separate classes actually does sound like a fantastic option if it can be implemented with enough combinations and doesn't break anything.

Sound like a lot of work too but would be an interesting option that could provide an alternative to the racial unlock PrE. It might also be a way to consolidate some PrE tree enhancements in different ways.

/signed on the side note for domains. Race options look like they are increasing too but more weapons would be nice. I'd still be happy just adding a spear.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I think unlocking a PrE tree option to swap in that is not available without locking in 2 existing trees from separate classes actually does sound like a fantastic option if it can be implemented with enough combinations and doesn't break anything.

Sound like a lot of work so but would be an interesting option.

/signed on the side note for domains. Race options look like they are increasing too but more weapons would be nice. I'd still be happy just adding a spear.

I'll /sign that.

[Failedlegend]

I think unlocking a PrE tree option to swap in that is not available without locking in 2 existing trees from separate classes actually does sound like a fantastic option if it can be implemented with enough combinations and doesn't break anything.

Sound like a lot of work too but would be an interesting option that could provide an alternative to the racial unlock PrE. It might also be a way to consolidate some PrE tree enhancements in different ways.

It will likely take alot of work but if done right it can give DDO more marketing ammo and for us another thing that only DDO has that other MMOs don't and would alleviate alot of peoples (like myself) concerns about the new system as far as multiclassing goes. Also this is probably the best time to do this since their re-tooling the whole system and I think the 3- Variable Tree system lends it very well to this.

/signed on the side note for domains.

I'll probably never actually play a cleric because frankly...everyone would die but Clerics without domains is like a Bard w/o Songs, a Barb without Rage or an FvS without their Deity Weapons..sure they would all still function without it but it's just not right

Race options look like they are increasing too but more weapons would be nice. I'd still be happy just adding a spear.

I'm definitely looking forward to what the new enhancements are gonna be like especially after seeing tempest.

As far as racial weapons I think they should try to use less used weapons like bludgeoning weapons, daggers, kukri's etc.

Along with spear I think it would be cool to add Bludgeoning Bolts/Arrows

[Aashrym]

It will likely take alot of work but if done right it can give DDO more marketing ammo and for us another thing that only DDO has that other MMOs don't and would alleviate alot of peoples (like myself) concerns about the new system as far as multiclassing goes. Also this is probably the best time to do this since their re-tooling the whole system and I think the 3- Variable Tree system lends it very well to this.

The tree system seems like the easiest way to implement something like this. Maybe not right away but as the groundwork for future development. I think it would be much more likely in the tree system than the current system and a very attractive option.

[Chai]

He's not limiting his vertical process by level, however, because there aren't enough AP to fill the vertical levels for anyone.

The mock up looks like each tree has about the same number of options an entire character class has now, or close to it. The versatility gained is in the ability to mix and match the trees and free PrE abilities. That provides for a lot of options and versatility when a person can choose which trees are in the list compared to not being able to choose which trees are in the list.

No pure class will be able to go very deep in multiple trees either because trying to due so still limits the higher tiers because no one will have the AP to do that. I don't have enough points to develop 4 trees to go beyond the level caps created by multiclassing any more than the multiclass level caps would be at.

Going pure means being restricted to going deep in 1 tree and spending points in the others while having a very restricted choice on what those other trees are. Going triple class means being able to go deep in the race tree and filling that out the other trees with a wide variety of the tree choices and PrE's available. That is versatility there and it's not restricted by depth going with the race tree. It's not even restricted by not being able to go deep in a class tree instead by using a race unlock. The end result is still going to be pure classes can develop one tree and supplement it, multiclasses are going to have the option of developing one main tree supplementing it with a much wider variety of options. Depth in multiple individual trees is a pipe dream.

When we are already looking at a lot of versatility (and I see A LOT of versatility in multiclassing compared to pure classing) asking for more choices is pointless when a person cannot fulfill all of the choices he or she already has except to munchkin up. What you are claiming as a need for versatility I am disagreeing with because the need for versatility is already fulfilled sufficiently with the ability to freely choose which trees will be available.

Bottom line: Someone is not choosing to limit vertical progression by multiclassing in the first place. The vertical progression is still available and heavy vertical progression in multiple trees not a real option in the first place to have given up for anyone. The versatility already exists in the choice of trees and more is not necessary. Having more choices than a person can possibly make use of but still asking for more choice is pointless unless there is a goal in place to improve the build, which is munchkin building.

I expect to have vertical limits on a pure class because I don't expect to have 150-200 AP to fill the existing number of available trees.

We arent talking about filling the entire tree. We are talking about progression to specific levels in the split. Youre saying its not limiting unless theres enough points to fill the entire tree?

That would be incorrect. Like the current system, the new system will have level limited enhancements. In a 12-6-2 situation the person cannot access enhancements over level 12 for fighter, over level 6 for ranger, and over level 2 for monk. They traded in ability to ascend vertically to level 20 in fighter, and they gained the ability to ascend to 6 in ranger and 2 in monk. That is the trade off. There is no reason to arbitrarily limit the system further through UI. The trade off is vertical movement for lateral movement. By gaining up to level 6 ranger enhancements and level 2 monk, they denied themselves access to fighter 13-20 enhancements.

Your statement that there is enough enhancements in fighter trees is incorrect, because they are being limited by the number of trees, which encourages pure class building. If they werent limited by trees then you would be correct, but since they are, there is far less reason to multiclass.

The ability to multiclass here SHOULD (but doesnt) give us the option to choose whatever we want from ranger 1-6, whatever we want from monk 1-2 and whatever we want from fighter 1-12 using the 12-6-2 class split. We cant do that because once we choose something from three trees, all lateral movement is locked out, which was the entire advantage in multiclassing in the first place, lateral movement.

Vertical movement does not cost another tree. Lateral movement does. It is NOT an equal system.

[Failedlegend]

The tree system seems like the easiest way to implement something like this. Maybe not right away but as the groundwork for future development. I think it would be much more likely in the tree system than the current system and a very attractive option.

Yeah the current system is far to convoluted and messy to work this in.

Somewhat unrelated but I'd kill to hear/see whats going on in the Dev meetings right now

That would be incorrect. Like the current system, the new system will have level limited enhancements. In a 12-6-2 situation the person cannot access enhancements over level 12 for fighter

IIRC one of the devs was saying those requirements are being relaxed if not completely removed and only the "Free Bonuses" are going to be level gated with the Trees only being limited by PrE and AP Spent. Also if they go with the "Favored PrE" System its even less of a concern.

Here's how I understand it. Each Tier (Shown below) requires X amount of AP before you can move up to the next one also when you spend 5/10/15/20/25/30/41 you get a "Free Bonus" in the form of a PrE bonus (See Tempest example below) but its level gated (I think it was like 3/6/9/12/15/18/20 or something)

5 Points Spent: +2 shield bonus when dual wielding
10 Points Spent: Tempest I, +10% off hand attacks, Scimitars are treated as light weapons and can be finessed.
15 Points Spent: +3 shield bonus when dual wielding
20 Points Spent: Tempest II, +10% off hand attacks, Deflect Arrows while dual wielding
25 Points Spent: +4 shield bonus when dual wielding
30 Points Spent: Tempest III, +5% doublestrike when dual wielding
41 Points Spent: Dervish - Full ability score bonus for damage on off hand

I do agree though that there needs to be incentive to multi-class in this new system and I'd say either an Extra Pane per class or my suggested Multi-class system (would prefer this) would suffice.

[jkm]

Anyways back on topic...The main reason DDO can't do alot of the above is they can't do the one at a time approval or denials that DMs in PnP can which is why I can understand the need for some restriction but the 3 tree limit is too much...but if they added multiclass PrEs I think it would balance things perfectly...sure we only have access to 3 PrEs (out of 6 or 9) BUT if I take some enhancements (possibly Tier 1) Warpriest & Henshin Mystic or Warchanter & Purple Dragon Knight I can have Sacred Fist or Dread Pirate in my third Slot....or I could ignore that and take three regular prestige like Warchanter, Purple Dragon Knight and Kensai on my ummm...Fighter12/Bard8

A few examples (Some fairly open and some specific)

Swiftblade: Any Arcane w/ Haste Spell (Maybe Trans AM gets an extra bonus) + Martial

Dread Pirate: Warchanter + Purple Dragon Knight

Sacred Fist: Cleric + Monk

Arcane Trickster: Rogue Mechanic + Wizard

Eldritch Knight: Arcane + Martial (maybe limited to Elves)'

Daggerspell Mage: Rogue Assassin + Wizard

Bone Knight : Palemaster + Paladin

????????????: Arty Construct PrE + Rogue Mechanic

Corrupt Avenger: Acolyte of the Skin + Divine Avenger

Warning: Some of these names may be misspelled or not even vlose to the actual name as my 3.5e books are packed away in my attic so I'm just going off memory but you get the general idea.



Sidenote to devs: Any chance some of the new enhancements include Cleric Domains and/or more Racial weapons?

Swiftblade/Hexblades probably need to be on a new class (battlemage or something like that). What I would love to see them do with Favored Souls is to have a Light/Dark tree for if someone chooses to be a Cursed Soul with feats.

[G.T.Gizra]

It's all good if y'all want to try something new but don't just change things up just to change things while it probably will be nice in the long run I hope y'all are ready for a lot of griping and general bronx cheers LOL. The mock up of the tree system looks functional ang fairly simple and disturbingly like the powers and skill trees from DCU, but I guess there are only so many layouts you can use when you are doing this type of selection tree menu. Good luck and u best not mess with my companion enhancements, or my rogue mechanic enhancement LOL.

[Failedlegend]

What I would love to see them do with Favored Souls is to have a Light/Dark tree for if someone chooses to be a Cursed Soul with feats.

Hmmm looked at Cursed Soul...could be an interesting mix with Monk with Demon Traits

Deadly Reach: Your reach extends by +5 feet. This trait can only be taken by those with at least 9 levels of cursed soul.

Claws: Your hands become large grotesque talons, gaining you a natural claw attack for 1d8 points of damage.

This vv could be worked into unarmed combat somehow...would be cool if there was a "Cursed" Soul weapon line and one was unarmed

Deadly Touch (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a cursed soul can cause wounds with a successful touch attack. An opponent subjected to this attack can make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 cursed soul level + cursed soul’s Charisma modifier) to halve the damage dealt. Furthermore, whenever a cursed soul deals at least 10 damage with a single deadly touch, the target takes 1d6 + 1 per two cursed soul levels strength damage.

Swiftblades probably need to be on a new class

I wouldn't complain if they did but really it would just be bloody confusing for a Prestige Class to have Prestiges Classes (or for it to be a base class)...and what Prestige classes would a Haste addicted Fighter have...Tempest? Dervish? Whirling Dervish? Bladesinger? Invisible Blade? Champion of the Wild?

[WurmBurned]

Racial PREs
---------------

Drow: The Scorpion wraith Prestige class presented in Secrets of Xen’drik is much closer to the Assassin PRE in this game than the Tempest PRE. Scorpion Wraith largely focuses on poisons and poison-like abilities with some free damage against enemies that are denied their DEX bonus.

Beyond the status of drow as ambush fighters in Eberron, I feel that a broader range of existing drow builds would benefit from access to Assassin traits than Tempest given the large investment needed for TWF and the prevalence of drow characters focused on casting and ranged.

Warforged: IRC, The mass produced warforge we have access to as a player race were designed as cheap labor infantry to augment the titan’s existing role as heavy armor. While the Warforged Juggernaut prestige class provides improved defenses against critical damage and some spell effects, it also shows a strong focus on grappling and tactical maneuvers.

Not only do I feel that Kensei is more in line with the lore of a highly trained warforged soldier, but it would help them catch up with half-orcs in the melee DPS department.

Thank you for your time.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

Alrighty, so what I'm seeing here is a reworking of the enhancements to be something similar to your previous Asheron's Call 2 system. I always liked that system and it'll be interesting to see how you get it to work.

[SisAmethyst]

Yeah the current system is far to convoluted and messy to work this in.

Here's how I understand it. Each Tier (Shown below) requires X amount of AP before you can move up to the next one also when you spend 5/10/15/20/25/30/41 you get a "Free Bonus" in the form of a PrE bonus (See Tempest example below) but its level gated (I think it was like 3/6/9/12/15/18/20 or something)

I do agree though that there needs to be incentive to multi-class in this new system and I'd say either an Extra Pane per class or my suggested Multi-class system (would prefer this) would suffice.

The system to unlock certain levels with a specific amount of points is commonly used and I guess widely accepted. While I neither want it to become like WoW or Rift, the later still managed to give an incentive to multiclass and even switch those trees on the fly. However they not only have a upwards tree but as well Roots that get automatically unlocked and distributed as soon as enough points are spent.



So the root is something like the bottom line that get unlocked via 5/10/15/20/25/30/41 points.

On the other side it I guess DDO is much more complex in its possibilities to combine certain enhancements. Even imagine all the different skill boosts like Concentration, UMD, Haggle, etc. will be probably quite difficult to place in this tree without making it too wide (even if they are single icons and can be selcted multiple times).

[Failedlegend]

While I neither want it to become like WoW or Rift.

While I'm also wholly against DDO following the "Standard" MMO Formula I have no problem with it going to a tree system if its done right..theres a REASON most games use it.

Now the thing is with DDO despite using a similar tree system its utilized completely different just by the fact that our leveling system is a entirely different beast. Now I'm going to make an example but bear with me because its been years since I played WoW but here goes nothing.

In WoW (or its many clones) if your a mage...thats it your a mage..sure you could be a Frost Mage (IIRC Slightly Less DPS than Fire but had more CC type effects), A Fire Mage (Higher DPS than Ice but alot less get out of jail free cards), or the I don't remeber Mage (had that were magey but didnt belong in fire or frost..the General mage)

In DDO Arcane PrEs are similar line but far more complex...but for simplicity sake lets just say their exaclty the same.

So that leaves the actual Classes if I'm in WoW my best bet is a Death Knight if I want to Play a Caster/Melee Mix which requires a high level character to unlock and starts at a high level himself and its the ONLY choice...in DDO I can just make a Caster Melee...sure they might not be hyper optimized but I can do it and if I stick to normal can probably do pretty well. Take My Arcane Knight for example.

Dwarven Wizard12/Fighter6/Rogue2

Now lets see with the new system (making a few assumptions here) I'd Probably go Palemaster/Dwarven Defender/Kensai this would give me the survivability of the Palemaster, the defensive capabilities of the Dwarven Defender and the extra oomph to my attacks from a little bit of Fighter. If they implemented my multiclass system Swiftblade would probably be awesome here. (Sidenote: For people who like to Mix Melee/Ranged A Tempest/AA/Swiftblade would be cool )

I actually play this guy quite often (He's now level 10) and his only real issues are his reflex save is a little low and he only hits about 80ish% of the time but his gear is also lagging far behind since I rolled him on a new server but his crafting levels are catching up rapidly and I'm missing less and less...also I've gotten my hands on a few Divine Power clickies which make the misses disappear.

Beyond that there's the Zombie Mage (Monk12/Wizard7/Fighter1 NS2/PM1), The Master of Miss Chance (Wizard12/Monk6/X2 PM2/NS1), The Tukaw (Sorc16/Paladin2/Rogue2), The FvS Class (Cursed Soul would be closest to Death knight) and many more

I would NEVER be able to do that in other MMOs...not even Rift or FF11...the former amounts to a far less in-depth PrE system and the latter having the ability to Dual-Class (IIRC you could have a second class up to half your main level) Out of the two systems I actually prefer the way FF11 handled it but other than that the game was HORRIBLE also they both have the same tired stand and press button to win mechanic...hell rift doesn't even try to hide it you can put your entire combat sequence into one button.

Oh our Clerics aren't <insert rude comment here> and our game is F2P

P.S. : We don't have any Gold Farmer and any griefers are quickly shunned the lack of an open PvP system helps with that....yeah No PvP is in MY Pro section


The ONLY thing WoW has that DDO doesn't is Gnomes...GIVE ME Gnomes...also speaking of WoW Gnomes they actually got them right...they do two things well Arcane Casting and Mechanical things. Turbine if you give us Gnomes don't you be giving em 3.5 Stats (+2 Con, -2 Str) Old School Gnome stats all the way (+2 Int/Dex, -2 Str/Wis...known as a Tinkere Gnome in 3.5)