Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[kingfisher]

Nope cant stand it. I DO have faith that a return to the roots of D&D will offer more solutions, not less. You apparently are having a great deal of trouble understanding how these changes will be good for the game.

Thats ok, they arent easy to understand, yet. You'll just have to wait until release this summer.

sigh.....seriously? return to the roots of dnd? what dnd did you play? mage/fighter/cleric/thief? then yeah you will prolly like ebing pigeonholed. i wont.

If you truly believed that, you wouldn't have said a word in this thread. The end.

I think he was referring to all the builds in WOW not this game.

reading comprehension FTW

[Aashrym]

Really? you sit down in the Turbine meetings too? You meet Eladrin for lunch and know everything on how the new system works while everyone else doesnt?

No effective difference? it is a massive difference between; I can choose to spend points on three things, but only have points for two things, vs once I choose to spend points on one thing, two other things I am never allowed to spend points on again.

The fact that you do not see how big of a difference that is doesnt change the fact that it is a massive difference. Rain falls outside whether you are looking out the window or not.

The mechanics were posted. There are 16 or 17 choices with multiple selections in the mock up and a quote that states (tier level -1)*5 requirement to unlock tiers. 80-41=39 left to unlock higher tiers in all trees after paying for whatever in the race or other items in the main tree. No one can pay for all of it.

If the row is locked out because we don't have the AP or the row is locked out because we're not level 18 in that class is irrelevant. The row is still locked out and I can't spend points it any more than you can. Higher level doesn't open it up just for being pure and if you want to have access to that tree you can have it being multilcassed.

I know you are giving something up. Telling me I don't understand it because you can't convince still won't convince me that I am incorrect in believing the gain is potentially more than the loss.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This doesnt return us to the roots of D&D - this returns us to MMO land - WOW, EQ2, and diablo. Please show me in the "roots of D&D" where there is a skill tree that limits us to taking three PRCs.

It doesnt exist.

Furthermore....

Bard is my favorite class, with a splash for many of my builds. Today, I can build a 18/2 bard fighter. I can take Song Magic, damage song, and song of the dead.

DKyle got confirmation that the abilities will not repeat in the trees for multiple PRE, and they will get put into the appropriate lines for each class.

Song Magic - spell singler is now locked in
damage song - warchanter is now locked in
song of the dead - virtuoso is now locked in

You get 3 trees, all are now locked in.

How do I take fighter haste boost, str 1 and toughness 1 at this point? I can do so today in the current system, but the new system disallows this.

Let me now remind you this is a 2 fighter splash. One of the most common splashes inthe entire game.

Your Ghengis Khan build for example, is 16 bard 2 fighter 2 barbarian. You want run speed AND haste boost? All you have left is the warchanter tree now.

The new system is MORE LIMITING then what we currently have according to DKyles confirmations he received from developers in PMs - MORE LIMITING - even to a 2 fighter splash. I dont even want to know what a 12/6/2 split is giving up.

This three tier skill tree is WOW roots, not D&D roots.

Heres the DDO mock up http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/...mentMockup.jpg
Heres a screenshot of the WOW tree system. Look familiar? All they did was turn it upside down.

All that jazz you just posted assumes all enhancements will stay the SAME. That is not what is going to happen. Way too early to try to fit a current build within the new parameters, much of which we know far too little about.

We'll talk about my build and others come this summer, I promise you!

[AylinIsAwesome]

I'd like to point out that from the sounds of it, the game will be radically different in terms of how classes work. There's no way any of us can make claims that multiclassed characters will be dead after this goes live. Not until we get more information, anyway. There's not really any point in arguing if it will or won't be balanced, since we're operating on so little information.

[Chai]

All that jazz you just posted assumes all enhancements will stay the SAME. That is not what is going to happen. Way too early to try to fit a current build within the new parameters, much of which we know far too little about.

We'll talk about my build and others come this summer, I promise you!

It doesnt assume anything. We received confirmation from the devs.

Cant wait until we can start fleshing out literally what we can and cant do, because if a 2 fighter splash isnt viable in this game due to the arbitrarily limited UI disallowing options that are currently available, ima buy out all the stock in popcorm and become a billionaire overnight.

The U5 feedback thread will look like a warmup frame compared to this, heh.

[gloopygloop]

Nope cant stand it. I DO have faith that a return to the roots of D&D will offer more solutions, not less. You apparently are having a great deal of trouble understanding how these changes will be good for the game.

Thats ok, they arent easy to understand, yet. You'll just have to wait until release this summer.

Some things are hard to understand even though they're true. Other things are hard to understand because there is nothing there to understand.

We'll certainly be stuck with whatever is released and I'm sure that it will have some benefits compared to the current system that we have now and I'm also sure that we will lose some options that we currently have in the current system. That much is obvious from just the very small amount of information that has been previewed so far.

With the very small amount that has been made available for preview and with the very large amount of the design that hasn't even been determined yet, I think it's premature to say whether the changes will be good for the game or bad for the game. The fact that you think you can make that determination already when most of the design work hasn't even been done yet is nothing short of astonishing.

[Aashrym]

No - you dont, and you continue to be utterly oblivious to this utterly obvious point.

Currently - enhancements are class featues - i.e, if you have the class you get the enhancements. Period. No debate. It happens - it really does look it up.

New system as described, and what you keep fighting so hard to promote the gimping of multiclassing - you dont get that access.

If you dont see that taking even a single point in a fighter line is going to lock out an entire tree of 6 levels or more of ranger enhancements - then there is absolutely no help to make you understand what 'locked out of existing class features we have access to now' means.

Currently you do. No kidding. Thanks for pointing that out tips.

Currently you don't have access to a capstone or higher level enhancements. If you want to believe it's more important to keep low level enhancements over higher level enhancements being potentially opened up on your individually lower level splits go ahead and keep stick with that.

In the mean time I'm going to continue to believe opening up higher level options could be worth the loss. Unless you want to assume high level enhancements are going to be subpar to low level enhancements.

[Chai]

I'd like to point out that from the sounds of it, the game will be radically different in terms of how classes work. There's no way any of us can make claims that multiclassed characters will be dead after this goes live. Not until we get more information, anyway. There's not really any point in arguing if it will or won't be balanced, since we're operating on so little information.

There is a point to do so actually. To make darn sure they know that ALOT of paying customers do NOT want them to mess up multiclassing.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The fact that you think you can make that determination already when most of the design work hasn't even been done yet is nothing short of astonishing.

I am confident in my abilities to build dungeons and dragons toons. I dont care how they paint the duck, I dont care what they call the duck. Ya dig? My specialty is building toons around people's playstyles. So far it looks like we'll have many new options to choose from... more then we had before. However, this is not WoW, its not just any mmo. DDO is the only mmo thats built around an already established set of core rules.

That should make most builders pretty comfortable at this point. Lets see what they come up with...

[Grandesa]

As soon as I found the link to this whole new "mockup". WOW instantly popped into my head.. Next thing that I thought.. OH THE BUGS!!! wonder how many and for how long will it take for the Dev's to fix the multiple broken, not even fixed yet, and hidden and/or not working correctly problems that this will cause??

Next thing they'll drag more WoW based into the game and add in Dual spec'ing... TBH I would rather leave our enhancement line the way it is. OH. Fix the Artificer pet Enhancement line please. been over 2 months since the release of this class and I still do NOT get the popup tool info for their enhancements. (yes i have tooltips on, everything else shows/pops up except the arti pet info)

Not to mention, all the current issues with the game first.. fix those then worry bout this crazy idea of revamping the enhancements. It'll just be that more stuff you will have to fix, workaround, and/or/most likely have to add to the LOOOOONG list you already have that is wrong/broken with the game.

just an FYI.. I'm not throwing this all at the Dev's. they can only do what the marketing, CEO's or whoever tells them too, It just seems brutishly ridiculous to try to jam stuff like this into the game ASAP instead of fixing all the problems with it now as it is.

I TRULY FEEL SORRY for the Dev's sometimes because alot of DDO/LOTRO players point the finger at them.. its not always their fault, they have to do what their told for the game, not what they think is always right or best.

So I"m asking whoever is in charge above the Devs.. READ THIS and FIX what needs to be fixed B4 throwing/jamming more stuff into the game that may cause more problems/exploits/whatever that we as players already know can/does cause in game issues.

My personal opinion, I would rather play games such as these that work correctly and as intended first and foremost without all the exploits, problems, bugs, etc, etc, etc,... than nag and scream for new content, changes, etc.. what's the point of playing the game if doesn't work like it supposed too?

Please and thank you.

[Vormaerin]

That sounds completely backwards.

The only way there could be a problem is if the specialty abilities are incredibly frontloaded; but if they are that frontloaded, that's a problem anyway for characters with only 3 trees.

Most of the "General" abilities are pretty frontloaded at the moment. All the spell damage trees and most of the boosts. Many of the other tiered abilities are diminishing returns at the moment, too, because they give the same for tier 1 as they do for (the often more expensive) subsequent tiers.

They could change this and that would affect the balance of the system quite a lot. Not knowing answers like this is one reason why I think this doom crying is ridiculous.

I assume the better special abilities will be higher up. But even if the low level abilities are weaker, there's still a much greater risk of unintended synergy with 10 trees than with 3.

[Aashrym]

Why even multiclass then? Going pure you get to choose from three trees. Multiclassing gains you access to 6, but you only get to put points into 3 of those 6. The point I am making..caps for emphasis....is that this system will DISALLOW things that are CURRENTLY AVAILABLE.

Again I ask the obvious question: Why revamp the ENTIRE SYSTEM so it will be MORE LIMITING than the current system is?

Going pure you don't get to choose which 3 trees (unless you also give one up from racial unlock), you don't get bonus feats or evasion, you don't get the ability to turn undead if that powers items in a tree you want.

If I wanted to try to make a spellsinger radiant servant I can't use RS abilities without turning and would need to take cleric levels to do that, possibly as a healing / melee build going warchanter / spellsinger / radiant servant for my trees.

Some of the old builds might be shot but the new builds are still a potential gain. Until we see that breakdown of what can be done in each tree there isn't any point in getting overly concerned. I know some thing won't work but that doesn't mean the new options won't be better.

That's a time will tell moment.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

But even if the low level abilities are weaker, there's still a much greater risk of unintended synergy with 10 trees than with 3.

This is it right here. It will also confuse the ever living heck out of those folks we build for on the forums. How about the folks who dont even hit the forums, that do not have a great grasp of D&D or DDO already. Way too many choices are worse than not enough choices.

There has to be a limit to multiclassing or else you'll have ultra-uber powered multis running around. Thats what class balancing needs to address (even though it will never completely solve it).

[Aashrym]

How do I take fighter haste boost, str 1 and toughness 1 at this point? I can do so today in the current system, but the new system disallows this.

True, but how do you know the capstone you can now access that you couldn't before is not better than those options you just gave up for it?

I would be more interested in some of the opinions when we see what will be in those trees than worrying that what we lose won't be worth it without even seeing the real alternative.

[Aelonwy]

Way too many choices are worse than not enough choices.

And this right here is where I would fundamentally disagree with you. But that is my personal outlook.

[Aashrym]

It doesnt assume anything. We received confirmation from the devs.

Cant wait until we can start fleshing out literally what we can and cant do, because if a 2 fighter splash isnt viable in this game due to the arbitrarily limited UI disallowing options that are currently available, ima buy out all the stock in popcorm and become a billionaire overnight.

The U5 feedback thread will look like a warmup frame compared to this, heh.

Splash fighter is likely still good just for the bonus feats. Same with monk. Rogue for evasion. Maybe not for the enhancements but there are other reasons to take those classes.

[macubrae]

I am confident in my abilities to build dungeons and dragons toons. I dont care how they paint the duck, I dont care what they call the duck. Ya dig? My specialty is building toons around people's playstyles. So far it looks like we'll have many new options to choose from... more then we had before. However, this is not WoW, its not just any mmo. DDO is the only mmo thats built around an already established set of core rules.

That should make most builders pretty comfortable at this point. Lets see what they come up with...

The only "established set of core rules" left after this is implemented is going to be the dice animation and the attributes. And it IS going to turn into just any mmo. The original D&D, yes I played the one with the blue dice, was about ample choices and playing 'characters' not about the uberest builds and bestest grinders. Don't refer to D&D any more, you really have no idea what THAT game was about.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

And this right here is where I would fundamentally disagree with you. But that is my personal outlook.

Oh trust that I want many more choices, but I do not want too many. If every toon could have every perk, then essentially the only difference would BE the race. Having a few thousand toons that all made the same choices (all the cool stuff), then this game would really get boring, fast.


If you followed me, I want more choices, but I want them as choices I can make. I dont want 10 trees where I can pick out every cool thing. Alternatively, I dont want to look at 10 trees if 90% of them are going to be blocked out anyway..

The most choices in the fewest trees is the way to go imho.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

The only "established set of core rules" left after this is implemented is going to be the dice animation and the attributes. And it IS going to turn into just any mmo. The original D&D, yes I played the one with the blue dice, was about ample choices and playing 'characters' not about the uberest builds and bestest grinders. Don't refer to D&D any more, you really have no idea what THAT game was about.

I've been playing since 1977, before it was even called AD&D. When did you start playing?

I am actually in agreement with you 100% about "ample choices and playing 'characters' not about the uberest builds and bestest grinders". You might want to read a little further back in my comments.

[Chai]

True, but how do you know the capstone you can now access that you couldn't before is not better than those options you just gave up for it?

I would be more interested in some of the opinions when we see what will be in those trees than worrying that what we lose won't be worth it without even seeing the real alternative.

So you rather bank on the unknown than ask to keep the known intact? Who cares about 1 million current players builds, because the next system MIGHT be better....

We've seen how that little diddy turns out historically.