Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Ganolyn]

I think most rangers would actually be fine with this as long as they gain similar bonuses elsewhere. If tempest gets the same or more dps without the favored enhancements they will probably be happy as that means they are less focused on just a few enemy types.

Divorcing this stuff from tempest also makes it much easier to implement as a racial line as it won't require favored enemy feats to open up it's dmg bonus.

I don't agree. They are taking a class feat and pidgeon holing it into a PrE line. Class feats should be enhanceable across the entire class, not just one style.

[Coldin]

Some things are currently slated in multiple trees - we've got Assassin Dex I and II, for instance, alongside Thief-Acrobat Dex I and II in the Rogue trees. They're currently expected to stack.

Hmm...and I'd guess the Mechanic tree might get Int I and II? Or perhaps something else entirely.

[Jendrak]

After reading as many of the dev posts as i possible can with out going blind (and thats a good problem to have, good job ) I gotta say I'm not impressed so far. Actually, I'm slightly upset with the apperant direction this is going.

1.) It seems like there is no thought going into the "racial" PrE. Other than ravager it seems like they are all just a cut and paste of what is already in game. Warforged PrE as Stalwart Defender, Seriously???? What happened to the plans of actual racial PrE's? Not cool.

2.) The statement made by Eladrin about the "most appropriate" tree. This is stating that the devs and not the player are defining what a charatcer will be able to do. The beautiful thing about DnD is it lets the player build his character how he wants to. The further pidgeonholeing of classes into cookie cutter builds is never good.

Now, I completly understand that these are just "in the works" atm, but if this is what the new system turns out to be this just might be a deal breaker for me.

[sirgog]

Into the most appropriate tree, generally.


The Deepwood Sniper is built up as the "forester / hunter" line for the rangers, and has the Favored Enemy modifiers.

Extra Song is in the Virtuoso tree for Bards.

Multiclassed characters will have to decide whether a couple of enhancements from a class are worth locking that tree in as one of the three selectable ones. Of the sample characters we've built, my Arcane Archer monstrosity (that I talked about in one of the ranged threads) was forced to make this choice - I ended up dropping the extra sneak attack damage from the Assassin tree. (Half-Elf / Arcane Archer / Kensei / Warchanter was my build.)

I did gain a bunch of other interesting things, though, to make up for it.

Any of the above are possible on a case by case basis. The spellcaster damage amplification ones are currently giving us the more interesting debates.

Some things are currently slated in multiple trees - we've got Assassin Dex I and II, for instance, alongside Thief-Acrobat Dex I and II in the Rogue trees. They're currently expected to stack.

This looks like it will hammer tri-class builds.

As an example, consider the present Mnk12/Ftr6/Pal2 builds (search 'Emerald 2.0').

They will want:
Paladin AC aura, maybe Paladin Saves aura
Fighter Haste Boost (presumably a Kensai ability)
Fighter Stalwart Defender 1
Monk Earth Stance 3
Monk Ninja Spy Shadow Fade

Not saying that I'm opposed to changes that harm some existing builds (hell, I play a Pale Master and still want to see them nerfed). But this will result in a lot of people needing to respec, possibly in ways that make treasured items no longer useful to them. Consider the above build - its Epic Helm of Frost looks lacklustre if it needs to LR/TR out of the Paladin levels, for example.

[WruntJunior]

I'm really liking the look of this so far, but for the first bit it's here, I would REALLY like to see the timer removed for resetting enhancements - the depth of this change looks like it'll fundamentally change many characters, possibly many builds.

[Snarglefrump]

Some things are currently slated in multiple trees - we've got Assassin Dex I and II, for instance, alongside Thief-Acrobat Dex I and II in the Rogue trees. They're currently expected to stack.

An alternative for putting things in more than one tree:

• Buy them with AP once, but let them count in both trees.
• Make them non-stacking.

You'd want to limit the number of things that get to apply in more than one tree, but it would be useful for certain abilities that fit with the theme of the class in general rather than a particular prestige line.

[Eladrin]

Keep in mind. Even though multiclass builds will have more to choose from then they do now, there MUST be a benefit to staying pure. That is why we are going to see at least some changes in the capstones as well.

This is true. Multiclass characters will have many more options to select from.

If I do a Barbarian/Fighter Multi-class, would the Fighter and Barbarian Toughnesses stack with one another?

Probably. I'm trying to avoid having selections made in one tree lock out enhancements in another.

Improved Fortification is the single worst feat in the game, by a longshot. Worse than useless. Making it part of a racial PrE for WF would be a huge step in the wrong direction.

<madwithpower>It will also be DESTROYED! BWAHAHA!</madwithpower>

Yeah, I'm getting rid of IF. People that have it will get a free feat respec token. It's going to be a tiered Warforged racial enhancement that doesn't destroy your character.

Mithril Fluidity too.

The same reason that a Barbarian wants more Strength and Paladins want more Charisma: it is the key component to having decent DPS as a rogue.

Right now this is true.

While I do expect most rogues that are heavy on the rogue to dabble in the Assassin tree for the Sneak Attack Training, the new Thief-Acrobat and Mechanic trees are solid.

Hmm...and I'd guess the Mechanic tree might get Int I and II?

Currently, yes.

I'm really liking the look of this so far, but for the first bit it's here, I would REALLY like to see the timer removed for resetting enhancements - the depth of this change looks like it'll fundamentally change many characters, possibly many builds.

We're thinking of changing the "You can only reset your enhancements once every three days" rule to an increasing plat cost to reset enhancements if you reset them too frequently within a three day period.

[sirgog]

We're thinking of changing the "You can only reset your enhancements once every three days" rule to an increasing plat cost to reset enhancements if you reset them too frequently within a three day period.

Here I was thinking you'd go:

"First respec in 72 hours costs plat. For everything else, there's Astral Diamonds."

[whereispowderedsilve]

Here I was thinking you'd go:

"First respec in 72 hours costs plat. For everything else, there's Astral Diamonds."

/tongue in cheek

"For everything else there's Mastercard!" :P! ! Lolz! (totally joking)

[LeLoric]

I don't agree. They are taking a class feat and pidgeon holing it into a PrE line. Class feats should be enhanceable across the entire class, not just one style.

You still get the feats. What does it matter if deepwood gets the +x dmg to favored enemies if you get the same +x in tempest to all enemies if anything it's better as you get that dmg to all mobs. Plus you can still further splash into the deepwood line for the favored stuff and still get your tempest stuff and get 2x dmg, you have einstein in your sig that should make sense :P You are also possibly gaining deepwood I (only really important if they make deepwood decent.)

[Ziindarax]

After reading as many of the dev posts as i possible can with out going blind (and thats a good problem to have, good job ) I gotta say I'm not impressed so far. Actually, I'm slightly upset with the apperant direction this is going.

1.) It seems like there is no thought going into the "racial" PrE. Other than ravager it seems like they are all just a cut and paste of what is already in game. Warforged PrE as Stalwart Defender, Seriously???? What happened to the plans of actual racial PrE's? Not cool.

2.) The statement made by Eladrin about the "most appropriate" tree. This is stating that the devs and not the player are defining what a charatcer will be able to do. The beautiful thing about DnD is it lets the player build his character how he wants to. The further pidgeonholeing of classes into cookie cutter builds is never good.

Now, I completly understand that these are just "in the works" atm, but if this is what the new system turns out to be this just might be a deal breaker for me.

I wish Eladrin would address this matter because honestly, I don't want a developer deciding what I can do through this "appropriate tree" business.

@ the Developers: Have you honestly taken into consideration those who have triple class builds (one build combines fighter feats with paladin saves with the power of the monk - Emerald Hand build)?

I implore you to reconsider pigeonholing people into specific pre's. Principle abilities should be a given for ALL prestiges, not just one.

[Fefnir_2011]

I know i'm coming a bit late to the discussion, but first off I'd like to say i'm very happy to see the Dev tracker going crazy from all the posts you guys are making right now. As a player of DDO, a game art/design student, and someone who loves to examine things down to the smallest detail it's great fun to see your design process laid out.

I did have a thought about all this Racial PrEs and multiclassing versus pure. When it comes to multiclassed characters, particularly the 12/6/2 splits we've seen a lot of in the forums builds. If i'm understanding correctly, the new racial PrEs will sort of allow for an overall "plan" for a build like that? For example, a 12 monk / 6 paladin / 2 fighter Warforged would be able to be completely Stalwart Defender, allowing him to have similiar benefits to being pure by being Tier III and having a PrE capstone... or, he could mix and match from the PrE enhancements from his class. Am I seeing that right?

If that's true, it will add a lot more versatility to builds and give people more reason to choose one race over another, and i think that's pretty cool. On the other hand, when it comes to multiclassing and your classes' PrEs.... following the same example, could you say, go all the way to Knight of the Chalice III on the same build? I think having that option would be awesome, but i know it would only be balanced against being single-class iff there were steep AP costs and you didn't get that PrE's capstone.

[Urist]

I think the Enhancement UI changes would be MUCH better if we could have at least six trees to lock in. These trees could be accessible via a drop down tab that reveals the tree of a given prestige. It would be clean, concise, and easily manageable.

Personally, I'm leaning toward the "unlimited number of trees" philosophy here.

My current thoughts/suggestions:

Unlimited number of trees. As long as the PrE trees are not front-loaded too much, allowing the player to spread APs across 11(!) trees shouldn't be that much of an issue, surely?

A vertical tab interface to access all available trees. There are only so many tabs you can fit on a horizontal tab-bar.

Generic class enhancements get their own tab. Not everything fits neatly into a PrE packet.

Two enhancements with the same effect are the same enhancement, and count as taken in every tree they appear in. That means no "fighter strength" and "barb strength", just "increased strength". This could make similar PrEs easier to get, with 1AP counting toward multiple prestiges; whether this is a good thing or not is debatable (to counter this some, it may not count toward the PrE unless all prerequisites for that enhancement are also taken in that tree).

Remember folks: Stacking bonuses are bad, and only serve to feed the power differentials.

[LeLoric]

For those unaware the following are two of the pnp versions of dervish prestige abilities that eladrin referenced earlier.


■A Thousand Cuts (Ex): When a dervish reaches 10th level, once per day she may double the number of melee attacks she makes while performing a full attack option (whether in a dervish dance or not). If a dervish uses this ability in conjunction with her dervish dance, she can make up to two attacks between moves. The dervish also gains the benefit of the Great Cleave feat with slashing weapons while performing a thousand cuts, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. She does not have to move 5 feet before making any extra attacks granted by this ability. A dervish using this ability can receive an extra attack from the haste spell, but the bonuses provided by the spell do not stack with the bonuses granted by the class.

Slashing Blades: A dervish treats the scimitar as a light weapon (rather than a one-handed weapon) for all purposes, including fighting with two weapons.


So the first sounds odd but I'd expect it to be a clickie boost type effect that provides faster attack rate or doublestrike and aoe attacks.

The second kinda flies in the face of what eladrin said would be a bonus to the tempest teir and not a purchaseable enhancemnt so I have no clue what the intention is here.


I would also like to put in a vote for this one to be added to defensive fighting or combat expertise for tempests (maybe +2 to def fighting, +4 to ce):

Elaborate Parry: When she attains 7th level, a dervish gains an extra +4 bonus to Armor Class when she chooses to fight defensively or use all-out defense in melee combat.

[LeLoric]

While I do expect most rogues that are heavy on the rogue to dabble in the Assassin tree for the Sneak Attack Training, the new Thief-Acrobat and Mechanic trees are solid.

Prove it

This does once again create a problem with multi class though. 13/6/1 acrobats are fairly common and will probably want kensai out of their 6 ftr levels and that means either they take the sneak attack dmg line and lose any monk stuff and racial stuff too or they miss out onthat dmg. I really don;t like the 3 panel limit.

[Urist]

We're thinking of changing the "You can only reset your enhancements once every three days" rule to an increasing plat cost to reset enhancements if you reset them too frequently within a three day period.

How about waiving the cost if you haven't entered a quest instance since your last respec? I'm thinking of the late night respec, followed by a next-day "what was I thinking?".
Though it is only plat, so...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Bards will need new spells in my opinion, regardless changes and additions to the current PrEs. There is one informative thread in particular where many in the bard community spoke out about their wishes. Latest Bard Feedback (233 replies and over 23,000 views makes it the 3rd most commented thread in the bard community)

My question to El or Mad is this. Will there be new spells, new weapon types (the big one: spears to add spice to THFs) or anything else that will be incorporated into this ambitious effort that you feel can/should be added that will further fortify the new enhancements/PrEs you will be working so hard on?

[Ninety]

Ever hear that old phrase, if it ain't broke, don't fix it?

taking away my ability to customize my character seems like ****.

I want the ability to select horc str 1 or horc str 2 based on tomes eaten. same with dwarf con. or any other racial enhancement.

IMO, instead of messing up DDO anymore just fix the bugs and put out new content.

you have 5 years worth of content that was developed around these characters and what they can do, and you just want to change it over night? I have a feeling none of the quests will change. Stuff people could do earlier with the 4-5 yr old character won't be possible any more.

Will they get free lesser hearts of wood to change their characters to fit the current game?

Will classes get free respec tokens when you remove feat based pre's?

I was all excited this morning about being able to have multi pre's. I was thinking of dwarf tempest defender. human AM/PM, pali HOTD/defenders. pali radiant servant/hotd.

now I see these new enhancement changes now as like going to an all you can eat buffet and only being able to select from table 1 or 2 instead of all 8 tables. hope you like your prepicked out generic food, because that's all DDO is going to give you.

[Mr_Tank]

For the love of god give us (warforged) juggernaut not stalwart defender.

[Nibor]

Unlimited number of trees. As long as the PrE trees are not front-loaded too much, allowing the player to spread APs across 11(!) trees shouldn't be that much of an issue, surely?

Generic class enhancements get their own tab. Not everything fits neatly into a PrE packet.

Two enhancements with the same effect are the same enhancement, and count as taken in every tree they appear in. That means no "fighter strength" and "barb strength", just "increased strength". This could make similar PrEs easier to get, with 1AP counting toward multiple prestiges; whether this is a good thing or not is debatable (to counter this some, it may not count toward the PrE unless all prerequisites for that enhancement are also taken in that tree).

Remember folks: Stacking bonuses are bad, and only serve to feed the power differentials.

I also worry about the stacking bonuses and the limited trees.
I might suggest that "generic class enhancements" get their own tab until they are bought, and then are assigned to a specific PrE at that time (and can even be limited). This avoids the stacking issue, and it avoids the power problems of allowing 1AP counting towards 3-5 AP of pre-reqs in various PrEs (since you've got unlimited PrEs - imagine the value in getting "Charisma +1" and having it count toward 9(!) different PrE trees?)
You could move them as whole linear lines - all the "Increased Charisma" enhancements count only toward 1 PrE, or you could have maximum customization and let each individual enhancement be assigned to a PrE. I would suggest actually moving the icon into the tab of the PrE it was assigned to. You could color-code them instead, but with a large number of PrEs available it would get ugly, and not very color-blind friendly.