Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[kingfisher]

You are welcome to call the devs liars all you want. I'm not inclined to agree. MadFloyd specifically stated that the intention is to make Lama into a test server with sufficient feedback time to make changes based on it rather than the preview server that it is now.

Its quite obvious from comments by MajorMalphunktion and MadFloyd that Turbine is making changes to their QA process based on the problems of this last year. Hiring more staff (50% more according to MF), pushing builds public sooner, etc.

Of course, none of this could end up happening. But if your only contribution is "the devs are lying, so this will be a disaster," then there's not much point in talking.

i called no one a liar. this is how it has been i the past. they may effect changes based on feedback once it gets to lama. sure hope so. would b great if they did. till they do tho....

[Artos_Fabril]

That whole 'bonus for points spent' structure becomes massively more unstable if you allow for 6 or 9 tabs. You'll either have to put in all kinds of specific lockouts or otherwise make sure that all those 5pt free abilities don't add up to be an enormous advantage for the character with 9 trees over the person with only 3.

Why in the world would you expect 9 different abilities from 5 points each in 9 trees to be more powerful than the higher tier abilities of putting 45 points in one tree, or 15 each in 3 trees, or 30 in one and 15 in another?

The only one of those situations where you get strictly fewer free abilities is putting 45 points into one tree, and that grants you a capstone as well.

30 points in one tree grants 6 free "bonus for points spent" abilities, the same as putting 5 points in each of 6 trees would if they allowed it. The difference is that all 6 of those free abilities would be focused in one general theme, and it's likely the later ones would be more powerful than the early ones.

Also, having to sacrifice a tree for the racial PrE tree is strictly a nerf for any elven tri-class arcane archers out there, not that there are many. Do you think any of those builds is overpowered? Or any arcane archer build at all, for that matter?

The point isn't being missed. There is a trade in for that where the lower level options are going to be replaces with access to higher level options including a capstone.

Once a person takes that capstone the AP cost per tier in each tree limits depth up the trees anyway. I have no trouble seeing Dkyle's point. I don't think think the loss is as concerning looking at the potential gain.

What is this stuff about gaining a capstone by being multi-classed? You don't Gain access to a capstone by selecting a multi-class, you gain access by selecting a race based on the PrE you want a capstone from. That only applies if every multi-class build relies on taking a racial PrE. Since taking a racial PrE removes one of your class trees, that is strictly a limitation, not a gain.

Again, let's look at an elven arcane archer, since that is the only case for which we can make a valid comparison of Racial PrE trade-offs now vs. after the change.

Now:
Any PrEs available based on class levels, with a limit of no ranger PrEs and one PrE line per class (up to 4 PrEs on a 7/7/6 or 8/6/6 split, , including the full AA line, regardless of the dubious utility of doing so) any non-PrE enhancements from any selected class, limited only by class level and AP available

After:
1 PrE tree locked in for AA, select 2 others from any classes taken, both of which are limited by AP availability and class levels.

Comparrison:
Lose 1 PrE line, all enhancements in all non-selected trees.
Gain ability to select Tempest or DWS PrEs if taking ranger levels, possibly gain racial AA capstone.

[Vormaerin]

Except for Eladrin saying that they might reduce that to a level bonus, so there will be no more 'racial capstone' unless you are also taking at least 12 levels in the favored class - which is as it should be.

They have already backed away from races getting automatic tier 3/capstones. So arguing that it is a benefit is not going to help.

Umm saying "that is a neat idea" is not the same thing as saying anything about actually doing it or accepting it as is. If you have some quote about them actually backing away from anything, I'd like to see it.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Ive read enough posts about DOOM from a handful of posters.

Anxiously awaiting more data from the devs at this point...

[Vormaerin]

Why in the world would you expect 9 different abilities from 5 points each in 9 trees to be more powerful than the higher tier abilities of putting 45 points in one tree, or 15 each in 3 trees, or 30 in one and 15 in another?

Because we don't know what those abilities are. Straight lines are usually pretty straightforward and easy to balance. Webs of abilities almost always have unintended synergies. The more such abilities you have, the more that is likely.

There are a lot of low level abilities that are quite powerful. Most abilities in this game are at least partially front loaded.

Look at sorcerer damage lines. The first point is 4x as useful as any subsequent point.

Yes, the +4 AC dual wielding (for example) is better than the +2 AC. But you get the +2 for 5pts and you only get another +2 for 20 more points beyond that. If you have enough abilities like that, where 50% of the benefit is cheap and the other 50% is expensive, you'll quickly get to the point where a lot of cheap is better than a little expensive.

Many of those "six free abilities" could be the same ability slightly improved a few times.

[Vormaerin]

i called no one a liar. this is how it has been i the past. they may effect changes based on feedback once it gets to lama. sure hope so. would b great if they did. till they do tho....

If MadFloyd posts in this very thread that this is changing and you build your entire argument around it not changing, I think that's pretty much saying either "I didn't read the posts I'm supposedly providing feedback on" or "I don't believe he's telling the truth."

Take your pick.

[Aashrym]

So you rather bank on the unknown than ask to keep the known intact? Who cares about 1 million current players builds, because the next system MIGHT be better....

We've seen how that little diddy turns out historically.

A lot of it based on accepting the the next set of builds will have there own advantages different from what we have now. On that note, however, I like making new characters with different options than I had before and when things change I can just TR and run a new life going with the change.

I would much rather be optimistic about the benefits than linger on what I had to give up for them before even seeing what they are.

I might even try AoV archmage spellsinger if I can find a way to swing it in there somehow.

[kingfisher]

If MadFloyd posts in this very thread that this is changing and you build your entire argument around it not changing, I think that's pretty much saying either "I didn't read the posts I'm supposedly providing feedback on" or "I don't believe he's telling the truth."

Take your pick.

no my point is that a 3 tree limit is bad. i am talking it about it here and now because in the past once things get to lama they are done. whatever anyone says to the contrary is great, i hope it works out. till its a reality tho i'll still comment here if thats ok with you.

[Vormaerin]

So you rather bank on the unknown than ask to keep the known intact? Who cares about 1 million current players builds, because the next system MIGHT be better....

We've seen how that little diddy turns out historically.

Yeah, we have. The enhancement system got vastly better when they ditched the original model and implemented the one they have now.

[Vormaerin]

no my point is that a 3 tree limit is bad. i am talking it about it here and now because in the past once things get to lama they are done. whatever anyone says to the contrary is great, i hope it works out. till its a reality tho i'll still comment here if thats ok with you.

You are welcome to comment, obviously. I can understand why a 3 tab system can be bad. I just think its premature to say "this IS a disaster".

I'm inclined to take MadFloyd at his word when he says that character design flexibility is the bread and butter of D&D and we will absolutely keep it. I can see ways in which a 3 tab system adds flexibility. I can see ways in which it completely crushes it.

I have no way of saying which this will do until I get more information.

[Thar]

Are you going to redo enhancements that are useless and too expensive?

The wow enhancement tree is lame. Why do you keep on trying to make this game easier and wow like. we don't want WOW or we would be there. We want enhancements that we have the freedom to pick and choose to max our characters the way we want them.

PLEASE... put some development time into new quests and areas. WE need more game, not redoing the old game.

STOP messing with the game to fix this or fix that... you killed rangers, never finished half the pre's, made each new class more powerful than the existing, etc... put more time into increasing the game.

[Aashrym]

Are you going to redo enhancements that are useless and too expensive?

The wow enhancement tree is lame. Why do you keep on trying to make this game easier and wow like. we don't want WOW or we would be there. We want enhancements that we have the freedom to pick and choose to max our characters the way we want them.

PLEASE... put some development time into new quests and areas. WE need more game, not redoing the old game.

STOP messing with the game to fix this or fix that... you killed rangers, never finished half the pre's, made each new class more powerful than the existing, etc... put more time into increasing the game.

Part of this is finishing off PrE's.

[nayozz]

i don't care what other players say...

but please while you redo enhacements... can you make the light and positive energy line modified as the arcane lines... now arcane got lines split into single elements and force and repair... i would gladly like that for the divine line...
also feel free to boost the +40% max we have now to the same amount arcane classes get :P

also... i would like more pre released especially for divine and arcane and artificier class :P or at least finish the currently unfinished ones

thanks

[Vormaerin]

I think all these WoW comments are amusing. There are only a few ways to actually organize things. Right now we use a straight columnar list that provides no direct feedback about prerequisites.

If you want prerequisites to be visually obvious...which is one of the design goals, I gather... there aren't many ways to do that. Trees are the easiest. Webs are possible, though pretty complex to do legibly.

How would you organize it so that you can see what level and what enhancements you need for a specific ability without having to pull up all the tooltips constantly?

[Artos_Fabril]

Yes, the +4 AC dual wielding (for example) is better than the +2 AC. But you get the +2 for 5pts and you only get another +2 for 20 more points beyond that. If you have enough abilities like that, where 50% of the benefit is cheap and the other 50% is expensive, you'll quickly get to the point where a lot of cheap is better than a little expensive.

And if the only thing you got from putting in those other 20 points was a +2 AC, then you would have a valid point.
Instead, you also gain +20% offhand attacks deflect arrows and scimitar as a light weapon (+2 to-hit or save a feat for the rare scimitar wielding tempest)

As things stand right now, that 20% offhand attack chance is far more powerful for 96% of TWF builds than +8 AC from 4 additional PrEs granting +2 AC each at tier 1. I doubt they're going to do much to change that, and I'm certain that you'd have some problems finding 5 different PrEs with a +2 AC tier 1 even if you got to choose from all classes, rather than a max of 3 trees each from 3 classes plus a racial PrE. And that still assumes you can find 5 points of abilities in every one of those trees that is better than 5 points farther up the tempest tree.

Here's a (very) quick mock-up of what I, and I think other people advocating for a general tab and/or more than 3 PrEs want to see.

Create a "General" set of enhancements available for each class. Higher tier general enhancements may be unlocked based on class levels, or points spent into that classes PrE trees, or whatever. (Haste boost 1 requires level 1, Haste Boost 2 requires level 4, HB 3 at 7, HB 4 at 10, for instance. Fighter Str 1 at 2, Str 2 at 8, Str 3 at 14, or whatever.)
Shorten PrE trees by ~10 points to adjust for general abilities not counting towards PrEs, or put a radio button next to them to allow you to select which Pre you want to assign them to, or maybe someone else can come up with a better mechanic? (again, do the math on this, and test it, and then release a character builder tool on the website to see what kind of broken stuff the community comes up with that the Devs and testers never thought of)

[Meat-Head]

.

DKyle got confirmation that the abilities will not repeat in the trees for multiple PRE, and they will get put into the appropriate lines for each class.

Song Magic - spell singler is now locked in
damage song - warchanter is now locked in
song of the dead - virtuoso is now locked in

You get 3 trees, all are now locked in.

How do I take fighter haste boost, str 1 and toughness 1 at this point? I can do so today in the current system, but the new system disallows this.

Let me now remind you this is a 2 fighter splash. One of the most common splashes inthe entire game.

Your Ghengis Khan build for example, is 16 bard 2 fighter 2 barbarian. You want run speed AND haste boost? All you have left is the warchanter tree now.

The new system is MORE LIMITING then what we currently have according to DKyles confirmations he received from developers in PMs - ]

Where was that info at? EDIT: NVM post #1729 has something about this. I searched. But I wouldn't say that's quite conclusive yet.

Been thinking. I really think they need ot do a general class tab OR they need to do away with the 3 tree limit.

BUT, I also agree that race + 9 trees might be a little silly.

SO, I like what someone else suggested that you get ONE more tree for each class you multi for a total max of 5. (3 trees plus one for each of the two added classes).

Some will say this discourages pure builds. I don't agree. Why? Cause pure builds will get more high abilities in their PrEs. Seems pretty fine to me.

[Meat-Head]

By the way, and I'm talking to myself here, it appears this thread is more or less over. I mean, they are well into the next "Let's Talk" thread at this point. Looks like they got whatever feedback they wanted.

Now it's wait and see time.

[Failedlegend]

SO, I like what someone else suggested that you get ONE more tree for each class you multi for a total max of 5. (3 trees plus one for each of the two added classes).

Some will say this discourages pure builds. I don't agree. Why? Cause pure builds will get more high abilities in their PrEs. Seems pretty fine to me.

Agreed, now we need more info...come on devs throw us a bone here we've chewed the mock-up and tempest tease raw..we NEED more

Oh and I still think this Tree system makes a GREAT way to introduce Multi-class PrEs (IF were not locked into 3 Panes) even if that just a some other time idea...that and giving Races actual RACIAL PrEs (but again no complaints if thats a "future" plan)

[Aashrym]

Where was that info at? EDIT: NVM post #1729 has something about this. I searched. But I wouldn't say that's quite conclusive yet.

Been thinking. I really think they need ot do a general class tab OR they need to do away with the 3 tree limit.

BUT, I also agree that race + 9 trees might be a little silly.

SO, I like what someone else suggested that you get ONE more tree for each class you multi for a total max of 5. (3 trees plus one for each of the two added classes).

Some will say this discourages pure builds. I don't agree. Why? Cause pure builds will get more high abilities in their PrEs. Seems pretty fine to me.

I suspect that by adding more trees we would be hearing about how players are getting the shaft by not having points to spend in them.

I also suspect there will be a big debate on what belongs in which tab.

I suspect the thought of trying to come up with more enhancements to fill the PrE tabs after moving some to a general tab would push this back farther than expected.

I'm wondering if the reason we only saw 1 tier of one PrE for artificers was to open it up but not spend too much dev time on it while this was underway.

I'm also wondering if it would be possible to spend a point or two in one tree to move an enhancement to another. Sounds unlikely but if it were possible pretty useful.

[dkyle]

The tree is smaller with the option of replacing it with a larger tree by racial PrE. No one is stuck with a smaller tree unless they choose to be stuck with a smaller tree and that is a build choice instead a design flaw.

One tree can be replaced by one Racial PrE. The other two trees are still stuck at being small.

So 12/6/2 can get one full tree (which must be a Racial PrE), and 2 small trees to choose enhancements from. Pure can get 3 full trees (which can be a choice of any 3 of their class PrEs and Racial PrE). Again, huge advantage to pure. They get more freedom to choose which tree to focus on, and they get a larger variety of enhancements to choose from once they set their trees. How is this not an advantage to the pure build? This is an advantage that has no analog to multis vs. pure currently, so the disadvantages for going multi compared to pure have increased.

That's a glaring advantage over the fact they are currently stuck with the limited smaller trees. 1 racial PrE plus 12 class levels in one class gives room for 1 full tree and two trees up to a PrE II and that is quite a bit.

If your belief is that the system presents no disincentives to multiclasses beyond what the current game presents, then arguing under the assumption that the 12/6/2 does not take a tree from the 6 class immediately invalidates your argument, because taking a PrE from the 6 class is a major incentive to go 12/6/2 in the current game.

The only way you can argue that 12/6/2 is not disincentivized is to look at the case where the 6 class has a tree taken for it.

At that point AP points are running out or gone and why I see that as a more limiting factor.

So, to be clear, your statement is that in all cases, AP points will run out before a multiclass is able to hit the max level enhancements? If there is ever a case where AP points do not run out, and a multiclass is unable to take enhancements they want because of a class level restriction, then your statement is simply false. Do really think there will never be such a case? If there is, then class levels + AP points will have been more of a limiting factor than AP points alone.

Every single character can have a full PrE line. How can you not see that as a glaring advantage over not having access to a full PrE line for multiclassed characters like we currently have?

I have never claimed that it isn't. I fully acknowledge that future multiclasses may have advantages over current multiclasses. I have said so many times.

My point is that future multiclasses will have greater disadvantages compared to future pure classes, than current multis have compared to current pures. That's the salient comparison. We will never be choosing between current multi and future multi, so how they compare isn't that important, except to sate concerns that peoples builds may or not be ruined. We have almost no basis make any predictions on that front. We will be choosing between future multi and future pure. And there is plenty to recognize that the proposed system disincentivizes multies compared to pures, moreso than the current game.

That's not completely backward. Higher tiers would be better because they cost more AP to get there. Pure classes do not have that greater opportunity because once they've gone through 1 full line they are limited by AP in the others.

Being able to choose among 4 possible capstones instead of being locked into 1 is a huge advantage. Being able to take two TierIIIs (which I expect to be entirely possible, leaving 20 points left over), is a huge advantage. Will all pure builds take two TierIIIs? No. But the mere freedom to do so is an advantage for pure builds.

That just gets back to every single character has that options to fill out 1 tree. Maxing out 2 trees is almost completely ignoring 2 others. If that is the only advantage I have a hard time seeing it as common because of the need to ignore enhancements in the other trees.

And you keep ignoring that the ability to pick among more full trees, and more enhancements in total once locking in the three trees, is an advantage.

We don't know how many capstones a multiclassed human or helf will have access to, or if there will be an actual capstone on the race tab. There might be more than one option for multiclasses already looking at that, but if a person wanted to multiclass and have a different capstone choice that is as easy as choosing a different race.

Sure, we don't know those things. But based on what we do know (and what we can give feedback on), there are many new advantages that Pures are gaining that multis do not, and as far as I can see, no new advantages at all that multis are getting that pures are not also getting. This points towards disadvantages for multies compared to pures.