Let's Talk: Game Difficulty

**Vormaerin** · 12-26-2011, 12:30 AM

It looks to me like we largely agree, except that you like to emphasize the average (bad) player as being the class' expectation, whereas I think its more useful to discuss what the character can/should be doing.

I'm not convinced that between blade barrier, cometfall, destruction, and Divine punishment, the cleric is really giving up a whole lot of destructive power compared to the barbarian or fighter in the course of a typical quest.

You are right that good play is uncommon. Many players come from other games that have very strict role division and expect that to apply here. Neither of us have played those games, so maybe that's an advantage to us. In a classic MMO trinity game, the tank and the healer are pretty close to incapable of doing meaningful damage, so any time they do anything except defend or heal (respectively), they are weakening the party. Players used to that come here and think that's how it works in DDO.

Good players know better. A good melee should be using CC (stunning blow, trip), debuffs (improved sunder), have pots for removing status effects, and made some provision for self healing (usually SF pots at the high end, other pots earlier), and have an assortment of buffs from clickies.

Is that the norm? No. But, to be fair, there are plenty of clerics who think they are pulling their weight by hitting Mass Heal every time it comes off cooldown, which isn't exactly complex gameplay either.

I'm not going to get into what particular players can do. In my experience, top players tend to play well with a wide range of classes because its more about wanting to be the best than about DDO having any tasks that physically complex. Whether an individual is better at top quality twitch play or better at watching the big picture of 6 or 12 status bars, is not really a useful thing to discuss. It doesn't say anything objective about the class, just about the person's interests/skills.

**Ungood** · 12-26-2011, 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by Vormaerin

In my experience, top players tend to play well with a wide range of classes because its more about wanting to be the best than about DDO having any tasks that physically complex. Whether an individual is better at top quality twitch play or better at watching the big picture of 6 or 12 status bars, is not really a useful thing to discuss. It doesn't say anything objective about the class, just about the person's interests/skills.

This is very true. Many players who like challenge in it's own right have a diverse portfolio of builds, many may be at cap. And while typically imho it seems that each player has a flavor of class they like, IE: Some love FvS, and Mix them into every build, while others have a thing for Monks. A Guild mate of mine has a thing for Bards, and has found a way to mix bard into almost every build they played. But they, like me, still have a capped melee, divine, and arcane, and if you look at most top players, they also typically has a split of each kind of class at cap.

It has been my experience that many of the top players and tight knit guilds do this so that there is no shortage of any class for raiding, so that they are not in fact "waiting on the healer" as any and every one of them should be able to "log on their Divine", and equally so, in my sampling, people who are skilled at playing their melee builds, play solid with their every-build.

As I said.

Divines are fun to play, the problem is not in the class. And while yes, every class could do with finished PRE's and the like, revision is not really needed. To me it was more an issue of dealing with people who wanted to treat me like their private slave.

**Sarisa** · 12-26-2011, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by sweez

Now if a barb has low enough heal amp that you don't just have to throw a freebie at him once in a while, then yeah, it can become an issue. But that's a gear issue (really it's 2011, not having at least 150ish heal amp is just sad), not a frenzy issue.

While any sane and well played Melee will acquire the good Healing Amp gear (and why not, eClaw set is one of the best DPS sets too), there are a HUGE number of Warforged Barbs on Sarlona (heavy East Asian population) that don't bother with even Healer's Friend 1. They're wearing Red scale docents, eSoS's, but have 0 amp whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Ungood

It has been my experience that many of the top players and tight knit guilds do this so that there is no shortage of any class for raiding, so that they are not in fact "waiting on the healer" as any and every one of them should be able to "log on their Divine", and equally so, in my sampling, people who are skilled at playing their melee builds, play solid with their every-build.

As I said.

Divines are fun to play, the problem is not in the class. And while yes, every class could do with finished PRE's and the like, revision is not really needed. To me it was more an issue of dealing with people who wanted to treat me like their private slave.

Yes, biggest issue is how divines are treated in the general PUG scene. I play my Cleric 90-95% of the time, and almost always will gladly heal a raid instead of playing my Pali or Sorc. Just sometimes, I would just like to try to get a ToD ring for my Pali instead of healing every single one.

Another big problem is that BtC ingredients (and to a lesser extent raid loot for the huge loot table raids) make it so that people are less likely to want to bring their healer if they want to gear up their other characters. While raid loot I can understand being BtC, it does get frustrating to finally see that Ravager ring or Marilith Chain drop when you're on the wrong character, when you switched to help the group. Ingredients (LoB in particular) should be BtA.

As for UMD on a CHA dumped half-rank class, reaching the 39 UMD to no-fail Heal scrolls is not easy. For example, my Cleric is heavily invested in UMD. I can only reach up to 37 UMD, and that involves a lot of gear-swapping and buffs. Granted, since I'm a Cleric, I have less need for reaching that 39 UMD mark, but I still use Greater Teleport (for Titan), Teleport (general travel), Invis, Knock, Blur, DDoor (when I have the scrolls and need to), and a Staff of Arcane Power.

The breakdown looks like:
11 Ranks
5 CHA mod (8 base+3 tome+2 enhancements+7 item)
5 Greensteel CHA skills/Conc Opp item, I could get 1 more if I used a wasted tier 1.
5 Seven Fingered Gloves - I wouldn't count on many people having these due to the pathetically low drop rate.
4 Greater Heroism
2 Good Luck
3 Epic Big Top (Tier 3 Epic Spyglass works too)
1 Ship buffs CHA shrine
1 CHA Yugoloth potion
--
37

My normal unbuffed standing UMD without gear swaps is 26 (11 ranks+5 CHA+5 Greensteel+2 Good Luck+3 Persuasion).

Yes, it's possible to get viable UMD on a pure fleshy wizard who dumped CHA, but it requires a great deal of equipment to do so. I can only hit this high with a number of gear swaps and temporary buffs.

**Habreno** · 12-26-2011, 10:42 AM

Here's my thoughts on this situation.

Levels 1-4 are an absolute joke, but that's good because I know the quests at those levels. For new players, these are fun, but still not that challenging, which is good.

Levels 5-10 are a bit harder, but still fairly easy to run. Elite starts to become an actual challenge at this point, but new players being careful can still complete everything quite easily while having fun.

Levels 11 and 12 start to increase the difficulty a bit. This is okay, because this is past the first cap in the game. You're also starting to get new spells and more abilities that improve your character a lot. This is where areas start to get difficult unless you know the content, but not undoable.

Levels 13-16 really ramp the difficulty up. What was on elite before, being a 5 , is now on elite, a 7. Normal has gone up slightly as well, from what I'd rate a 2 before level 13 to a 3 in this range. However, nothing is undoable by any solid group, even elite is possible.

Levels 17-19 start to make things extremely difficult. Quests on Normal become slightly more difficult, and Elite is now a major threat. Normal I'd have to give a 4 now, and Elite would be a 9. Most quests can be completed on Normal quite easily, but some get harder to do.

At cap, you get Epics. These vary greatly by pack. However, the general concensus is that some packs are difficult and some are downright impossible, while some are fairly easy.

**Yagisan** · 12-26-2011, 11:04 AM

I'll preface this by stating I am a new ( and paying ) player - fresh off the Korthos boat if you like - and do not have all the gear that it is assumed one will have before doing various quests. I also find myself soloing often, with occasionally a hireling.