+20 lesser heart of woods for all melees!

[Tinco]

How hard could it be to fix?

Very hard. I'd say that most of the core problems cannot be fixed without heavy tweaking of a lot of 3rd edition rules. Your proposals sadly don't fix any underlying design problems. But I agree that what certainly can and should be done is some sensible number-tuning.

[mournbladereigns]

Ok, well the current trne of nerf melees, buff casters/FvS, and repeat is showing that the next update will be a buff to Casters since Melees got nerfed with fort increases on enemies and Barb pastlife (Which is understandable since it was not WAI and was causing Barbs to do almost as much damage as a FvS).

So now that FvS and Sorcs do more damage to bosses than any melee class, they as well as Wizards can keep themselves alive anywhere, Wizards can kill all trash, and Melee serves as a distraction while FvS and casters do everything better, why not give all melees a +20 lesser heart of wood, then delete Melee classes?

When a perfect group is 11 FvS and a Wizard to take care of trash, why have the server bogged down with gimpy Melees? Sure, once in awhile a tank is useful, but only because there are other melees in group. And even then, FvS make great tanks anyway.

Or, maybe, in update 12 balance things out a bit? Maybe not have 3 classes which top DPS, instakill everything that isn't a boss, self heal, party heal, buff and only have to worry about running out of spell points in maybe 2 or 3 epic quests/raids?

What are you talking about? Didn't you hear, FvS are gimp cause they nerfed their wings!

[mournbladereigns]

No, I wouldn't join. Why would I? I have a Favored Soul. Why would I be some piking melee in the group when I could actually contribute by doing more damage, healing, buffing and never having to get a heal from someone else?

so you could pass loot to your guildies. Cause that's what guild are for

Turbine still hates you!

[mournbladereigns]

Ok, well the current trne of nerf melees, buff casters/FvS, and repeat is showing that the next update will be a buff to Casters since Melees got nerfed with fort increases on enemies and Barb pastlife (Which is understandable since it was not WAI and was causing Barbs to do almost as much damage as a FvS).

So now that FvS and Sorcs do more damage to bosses than any melee class, they as well as Wizards can keep themselves alive anywhere, Wizards can kill all trash, and Melee serves as a distraction while FvS and casters do everything better, why not give all melees a +20 lesser heart of wood, then delete Melee classes?

When a perfect group is 11 FvS and a Wizard to take care of trash, why have the server bogged down with gimpy Melees? Sure, once in awhile a tank is useful, but only because there are other melees in group. And even then, FvS make great tanks anyway.

Or, maybe, in update 12 balance things out a bit? Maybe not have 3 classes which top DPS, instakill everything that isn't a boss, self heal, party heal, buff and only have to worry about running out of spell points in maybe 2 or 3 epic quests/raids?

Make a melee caster. problem solved

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr6QJw971SA

[R0cksteady]

Make a melee caster. problem solved

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr6QJw971SA

So, the entire point went right over your head?

I'm saying, why not make all classes useful instead of a few. Makes a melee caster isn't going to make Barbs, Rangers, Monks, Fighters, Rogues and Paladins more useful.

[Chrasch]

So, the entire point went right over your head?

I'm saying, why not make all classes useful instead of a few. Makes a melee caster isn't going to make Barbs, Rangers, Monks, Fighters, Rogues and Paladins more useful.

Alternately make quests harder for the casters. Make it so that parties really need a melee out in front at times.

[EvilI]

How hard could it be to fix?

Put a save on DOTs, Reverse TWF nerfs (Keep the system change, just raise offhand procs to 100% with GTWF, Give rangers more doublestrike with each tier of tempest, Allow offhand procs on doublestrikes), put glancing blows back on THF when moving, and revert combat feats back to where they were. Remove the extra fortification put on raid bosses and replace it with more HP, so the increase in boss defense effects all classes not just melees.

With a few changes, Casters both divine and arcane aren't as ridiculously overpowered, melees have more of a purpose since they would be doing a bit more damage, Rangers wouldn't be do underpowered, TWF would be doing slightly more damage than THF (Makes sense for a fighting style that requires more feats, more weapons and more points spent in dex which could otherwise be dumped to do more damage, especially when the best weapons int he game are THF by a wide margin). Hell, with the Epic SoS, THF would still be on top.
[...]

I was gonna protest against your original and slightly exaggerated rant, but these all seem like solid and good suggestions to me. There should be a small payoff to investing in TWF, and if there's one thing in this game that needs a good buff it's melee rangers.

[R0cksteady]

I was gonna protest against your original and slightly exaggerated rant, but these all seem like solid and good suggestions to me. There should be a small payoff to investing in TWF, and if there's one thing in this game that needs a good buff it's melee rangers.

You know, the really, really sad thing is, THAT rant is only SLIGHTLY exaggerated.

[Exanimus]

for melees
AC has to work at all levels or failing that, DR. armor should apply a certain amount ANYWAY no matter what type it is until it has been rendered ineffective (50% or less durability)
Better threat generation...if the following below is ever implemented...they'll need it.

for casters
the one thing casters may hate...but is part of nearly every other mmo...spells, either defensive or offensive generate threat including DoT's 3x it's value.
AoE's (including heals/buffs) generate 3x threat per target affected..

ie:
heal for 120 would generate 360 threat.
fireball that damages 4 targets for say, 50, 60, 40, 20 = 150, 180, 120, 60 or 510 total threat. would affect all mobs that are in range not just the ones directly affected.

and AI would be rewritten to target healers and casters if ag hasn't been acquired by any other toon if mob is considered intelligent (if they've cast within mobs awareness range). i mean seriously...what's the first thing player parties kill? healers>arcanes>then everything else. always seemed this game has the worst AI/threat of any mmo...when it should have one of the best considering it's roots.

[kingarthas87]

How hard could it be to fix?

Put a save on DOTs, Reverse TWF nerfs (Keep the system change, just raise offhand procs to 100% with GTWF, Give rangers more doublestrike with each tier of tempest, Allow offhand procs on doublestrikes), put glancing blows back on THF when moving, and revert combat feats back to where they were. Remove the extra fortification put on raid bosses and replace it with more HP, so the increase in boss defense effects all classes not just melees.

With a few changes, Casters both divine and arcane aren't as ridiculously overpowered, melees have more of a purpose since they would be doing a bit more damage, Rangers wouldn't be do underpowered, TWF would be doing slightly more damage than THF (Makes sense for a fighting style that requires more feats, more weapons and more points spent in dex which could otherwise be dumped to do more damage, especially when the best weapons int he game are THF by a wide margin). Hell, with the Epic SoS, THF would still be on top.

But instead, what we're going to get, is more melee nerfs. Or maybe another tier of the FvS prestige that comes with a clickie of "DUNGEON OVER" and allows you to skip the raid and pick up the end loot.

You know the devs cant roll back nerfs, but they can roll back bugs

[AMDarkwolf]

Imagine for a moment, that you were one of those mobs...


... Now as one of those mobs, knowing what you know, wouldn't you load up dispel, disjunction, ray of enfeeblement, and whatever you could to lock down and eliminate casters as a threat?


... oh but you would here much 'I R GOTTED NERFED' on the forums by those same people who previously posted 'I R SOLOED (Insert quest/raid here) RAWR!'


Personally I always liked the idea of a dungeon full of SR 100, mana eating, hasted rust monsters with perma FoM, that got healed by any type of elemental damage. (Oh hell, include force, 'good' and negative damage too just cuz)

EDIT: oh forgot to mention that the end chest of said dungeon would have a 'must have' caster item(Useless to melee's of any sort of course) thats BtC, and has a silly low drop rate. Also make sure its a non-transferable item (AKA renown)

[MysteryNotes]

I like it. The title made me smile. Besides, I agree wholeheartedly but I'm tired repeating the same over and over again.

[EDIT] Ziindarax: This is simply not true on many levels. Melee can swing forever, but they can only swing effectively until their boosts/smites/rages and most importantly healthbars are gone. Shrine placement in 95% of all quests does not promote careful sp management at all. And when the x hits the y you can power-drink your way through everything as seen in infamous house C raids. For me, there's not one tiny reason that the current situation is anywhere close to satisfactory regarding balance. The ability vs. limitation measure is off by miles and the only reason not play casters is that they trivialize many parts of the game so much that it becomes boring.

Why would you say that melees rely on action boosts to do 'effective' damage?

[JasonJi72]

I actually don't play casters as much now because they are so strong. Occasionally, I will play my fvs to play a healer for a bit. You know for the good of the tribe. What tends to happen though is that once I get used to playing him, is that I tend to solo stuff with a group of melee's in tow. It starts out as just trying to do my part to mitigate the damage they are taking, but sometimes I go to far and forget that I am their main source of healing. I know I know... my bad. I really am a decent healer, but when you go into nuke / cc mode long enough, it is hard to turn it off.

I have also seen quests 'ruined' by a sorcerer joining. Yes, he unloaded his full mana bar into the group of enemies. Was it much fun for the rest of us? Not so much. Just saying.

Artificers were another hit to melees. All trash mobs must now be kited apparently.

[protokon]

no.

[Robai]

How hard could it be to fix?

Put a save on DOTs, Reverse TWF nerfs (Keep the system change, just raise offhand procs to 100% with GTWF, Give rangers more doublestrike with each tier of tempest, Allow offhand procs on doublestrikes), put glancing blows back on THF when moving, and revert combat feats back to where they were. Remove the extra fortification put on raid bosses and replace it with more HP, so the increase in boss defense effects all classes not just melees.

With a few changes, Casters both divine and arcane aren't as ridiculously overpowered, melees have more of a purpose since they would be doing a bit more damage, Rangers wouldn't be do underpowered, TWF would be doing slightly more damage than THF (Makes sense for a fighting style that requires more feats, more weapons and more points spent in dex which could otherwise be dumped to do more damage, especially when the best weapons int he game are THF by a wide margin). Hell, with the Epic SoS, THF would still be on top.
...

Very well said. 100% agree with you.

[Dannos]

Give more monsters in quests dispels, anti caster style attacks such as stunning and crippling and snares based on strength and dex, something you can't protect against with buffs. If a caster throws down a blade barrier or firewall or discoball have an enemy caster throw a break enchantment or a cyclonic blast to blow them away!

Implement more use of antimagic fields and other such abilities, master artficer is a great example of this, with the purple titan. dig up some of the stuff from more obscure splatbooks from 3.5 that are tailored to kill casters, counterspells!

Take a look at the ridiculously overpowered Tome of Battle classes had some pretty nifty non-arcane abilities that would ruin any caster's day- solo or not. Iron Heart Surge anyone?

As one of the previous posters started to say I'l continue: ALL intelligent monsters in the game should not be affected by traditional "aggro" mechanics. They are supposed to be intelligent, make them do the same things we would do. Anyone who has done Chrono knows the drill: CASTERS>ARMORERS>BOSS. Apply the same to HEALERS>CASTERS>DPS. This would make intimidate and diplomacy useful skills again, maybe we'd see more traditional "tanks" around.

[Xezno]

When i started playing this game I was playing a sorc. I played that toon constantly up until the Vale came out, which seriously nerfed casters. Part of the fun back then was the skill it required to play a caster - the ability to hover in the background and cast that one spell that turned the entire fight. The skill of mana conservation was the thing that separated the bad players from the good.

It might be redundant to explain that back then there was no such thing as mana pots.

What i suggest is a nerf to mana pots by:

1. Slightly increase the cooldown.
2. Make it so that for every mana pot you drink you take a -1 con panalty that stacks and lasts for 1 minute.

I know this game isnt DnD - but no DM would allow a player to drink several barrels of magic brew that gave the player all his spells back without at the same time punishing him in some way.

This would also make raids a lot more fun - if the caster has to drink 20 mana pots its highly likely that said caster would die a quick death. Also rogues and artificers would have a more profound role since they can scroll heal atleast as good as a cleric.

Casters have a mana bar for a reason - to limit the use of their spells. The introduction of theoretical unlimited sp by using pots totally screwed this balance.

[Arraetrikos]

melee's control the levelling process. Some classes have better ability in high levels, but the chosen champion of a god or a master scholar must wield more power than a half-orc beating things up?

A melee played well by a good player will easily surpass a wiz/sorc/fvs played atrociously. If people have spent the time to make their arcane/FvS's build/gear/past lives a powerful mix, then ofc they are going to be powerful. Similarly, a multiple-lived twinked out uber-melee will be powerful too


Please ignore any grammatical or spelling mistakes, i have not been awake long, *yawn*

[ToKu]

Hey now melee's have a role! Ya need them to come in before you open the chest to increase your odds of getting something you want.

[AMDarkwolf]

melee's control the levelling process. Some classes have better ability in high levels, but the chosen champion of a god or a master scholar must wield more power than a half-orc beating things up?

A melee played well by a good player will easily surpass a wiz/sorc/fvs played atrociously. If people have spent the time to make their arcane/FvS's build/gear/past lives a powerful mix, then ofc they are going to be powerful. Similarly, a multiple-lived twinked out uber-melee will be powerful too


Please ignore any grammatical or spelling mistakes, i have not been awake long, *yawn*

Annnd once again someone attempts the 'a good player playing a melee will be better than a bad player on caster'


Duh. Yes. We. Know.


BUT. A good player, a VERY good player, playing a DECKED OUT melee with MULTIPLE PAST LIVES, and MUCHO EPICO GEARO will easily be left in the dust by a GOOD PLAYER WITH A CASTER / DIVINE WITH ONLY THE CURRENT LIFE WORTH OF GEAR...

THIS is the problem. Not some made up 'well a bad player will be worse than a good player' ****, the simple fact that there is an obvious and glaring imbalance between the classes, at ALL levels of play(Contrary to what another poster said, casters from 1-20 got it E-A-S-Y. at 5 I'm still watching FvS/Wiz's blow past me in elite content. I've got 7 lives behind me. Those divine/casters got... none. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.)


U know to fix the problem they should implement 'potion sickness' which gets worse and worse (AKA silver flame pots) as u drink more pots. The severity of the sickness depends on the potions used(CSW pots might make u -1 each stat after the 4th potion inside one minute, but a major mno might give -4 all stats after the 2nd inside one minute?)