1 Stalwart Defender +9 Casters = . . .

[Arsont]

In regards to the OP:

I've been working a build similar to yours, and I'm wondering how it will do, so I had some questions partly related to that and this.

-Will your Meathelmet be able to hold aggro on some of the harder raids? As in, will you be able to tank elite Horoth? In regards to hate/threat.
-Will your AC be passable for elite Horoth? Last number I saw was ~91. What gear setup would you use for this?

Bit of a derail perhaps, but something I've been wondering. Would appreciate it muchly if you could enlighten me.

[grodon9999]

It is not possibile to hold aggro over a fully geared and planned Sorc with no hate gear and enhancement. Once the two DoT spell reaches tier 3 with Eardweller and Awaken Elemental Weakness, you won't be able to hold aggro anymore. Conjoined Abishai Devastator is an exception, since it switches form and causes one type of elemental spell to heal itself thus won't be generating more hate from that type of spell.

BS, I've done it.

[grodon9999]

-Will your Meathelmet be able to hold aggro on some of the harder raids? As in, will you be able to tank elite Horoth? In regards to hate/threat.

Yes, has held aggro over ESoS equipped maxed barbs with Devil's Ruin Crystals. On Horoth though I do ask for 10 second head start because of the slow-down you get from the CON Yugo pot.

-Will your AC be passable for elite Horoth? Last number I saw was ~91. What gear setup would you use for this?

I can't hit 91 yet, need Dodge 3. He maxes out right now at 88 with DDO store stat pots which I will use when the occasion calls for it (I'm VIP, what the heck else do I do with my points?). I have a few more pieces of gear I'm hunting for and will be able to push him to mid 90s with that and the dwarven Defender PRE if it ever comes out.

When I need to do Elite Horoth we cheat with stuff like halflings companion or I'll take some Abisahi cookies. Most of the time when we do Elite we put him on Sulu though because his threat means nobody has to hold back and we have a few in-guild stalwarts who have a bout 100 more HP.

[budalic]

BS, I've done it.

I think he mentioned 'with no hate gear and enhanchment'. You've done it with those.

Though, I think 30% hate increase is kinda baseline, since everybody and their mother is wearing claw set.

[grodon9999]

I think he mentioned 'with no hate gear and enhanchment'. You've done it with those.

Got it, missed that part. And yeah, i've never seen anyone do it without additional threat.

Though, I think 30% hate increase is kinda baseline, since everybody and their mother is wearing claw set.

Claw set gives 20% more threat.

[budalic]

Claw set gives 20% more threat.

Yeah... I think I somehow confused it with heal amp on gloves.

But, my point still stands - whatever kind of tank you use, you have to be able to beat someone dpsing with claw set. (Unless you can somehow persuade every clawer to use something else instead - but that doesn't change the fact that your tank sucks.)

[grodon9999]

Yeah... I think I somehow confused it with heal amp on gloves.

But, my point still stands - whatever kind of tank you use, you have to be able to beat someone dpsing with claw set. (Unless you can somehow persuade every clawer to use something else instead - but that doesn't change the fact that your tank sucks.)

Defenders CAN DO THIS now. We had a S&B guy hold aggro over max-DPS barbs last night and had no problems, it'll get even better on Monday with that 75% more threat, S&B defenders will put out more threat than TWFers.

Pugs is really the only place where people need to ever take off a piece of threat gen gear, in guild runs the tanks should be fine.

[Shade]

2. my god are casters good DPS

heh. I'll stick with one caster and do the VoD the way I do it, call me what you want:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2073/timelx.jpg

casters are EASY dps. But their not that good in a raid like this.

[grodon9999]

heh. I'll stick with one caster and do the VoD the way I do it, call me what you want:
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2073/timelx.jpg

casters are EASY dps. But their not that good in a raid like this.

Shade - that's arguably the best melee DPS ever assembled. Fastest we've every knocked out an Elite VoD with my guilds A-Team was about 11 minutes and that seemed fast as hell, your 7 minute run must have been a trip.

This was a borderline Pug with mostly Wizards, only 3-4 sorcs and a few guys weren't even capped yet.

I would not be surprised of a group of maxed-out self-sufficient sorcs couldn't get this done in the same time as your all-star melee group. What'll be interesting to see is how this goes down after U11.

[LordPiglet]

Ahh, research. See how much threat generation you need to see what you can get away with? Good idea actually.

I don't believe any of the casters had any threat amplification.

You pretty much NEED claw (or a 20% incite weapon) and stalwart to pull this off. One is NOT enough, we've had some painful experiences where the Stalwart had one but not the other and aggro wouldn't stay on them when full-retards aren't holding back. There's a clone of my stlawart in guild who has Claw but no Cinder's band yet and he has lost aggro to my rapier-wielding ranger (was fine once I enabled Tharnes set).

Really the best bet is to get your intimidate up for when/if the bad guy does turn you can get them back.

I know that epic cutlasses were enough for me to hold aggro on echrono. I'm still trying to cinders band just as a swap set. I did have the head start just incase because I haven't tanked it many times.

[LordPiglet]

That takes time though, I literally hit Sulu for two seconds and said "go." if it takes time to setup your DPS you're actually doing less DPS.

The FvS last night did intentionally stand next to me to get hit purpose to get the shield of condemnation procs (no point in putting the champion on an AC tank who's design is not to get hit). I'm not sure how many stacking procs we got, Mute_mayhem was the FvS so he should be able to answer. Also keep in mind that the tanks holy damage will increase with the SOC procs as will his threat.

I'm off timer on Thursday if anyone on Ghallanda wants to try this again.

I would put the champion and pass aura to an ac tank, it will increase their threat.

[mute_mayhem]

I would put the champion and pass aura to an ac tank, it will increase their threat.

How would putting the crown of retribution on an AC tank increase their threat?

Crown of Retribution:

Usage: Active
Requires All of: Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Available to Favored Soul class level 6
You transfer your Shield of Condemnation to your Champion as long as they remain within your Aura of Menace. Enemies that strike your Champion while this is active also take 1d8+1 points of light damage from your divine wrath.

Shield of Condemnation

Usage: Passive
Requires All of: Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Available to Favored Soul class level 6
Enemies that STRIKE YOU have a chance of suffering divine condemnation, increasing their vulnerability to light and alignment-based damage by 20%, and decreasing their fortification by 10%. This debuff stacks up to 5 times, and is dispelled by Bless effects.
(Emphasis added)

I see absolutely nothing in there that will help an AC tank.

So, please enlighten me as to why I should transfer the crown to an AC tank.

Thanks

[lord_of_rage]

Shade - that's arguably the best melee DPS ever assembled. Fastest we've every knocked out an Elite VoD with my guilds A-Team was about 11 minutes and that seemed fast as hell, your 7 minute run must have been a trip.

This was a borderline Pug with mostly Wizards, only 3-4 sorcs and a few guys weren't even capped yet.

I would not be surprised of a group of maxed-out self-sufficient sorcs couldn't get this done in the same time as your all-star melee group. What'll be interesting to see is how this goes down after U11.

Agreed. My only question is why did they let Axer pike?

[Ravoc-DDO]

1 Stalwart Defender +9 Casters = another fine example of DDO's imbalance today

[LordPiglet]

How would putting the crown of retribution on an AC tank increase their threat?

Crown of Retribution:

Usage: Active
Requires All of: Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Available to Favored Soul class level 6
You transfer your Shield of Condemnation to your Champion as long as they remain within your Aura of Menace. Enemies that strike your Champion while this is active also take 1d8+1 points of light damage from your divine wrath.

Shield of Condemnation

Usage: Passive
Requires All of: Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
Available to Favored Soul class level 6
Enemies that STRIKE YOU have a chance of suffering divine condemnation, increasing their vulnerability to light and alignment-based damage by 20%, and decreasing their fortification by 10%. This debuff stacks up to 5 times, and is dispelled by Bless effects.
(Emphasis added)

I see absolutely nothing in there that will help an AC tank.

So, please enlighten me as to why I should transfer the crown to an AC tank.

Thanks

My best guess is that the aura of menace aggro component is also transfered (when your'e in range)?

What you're missing is:

Name Champion
◦Usage: Active
◦Requires All of: Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
◦Available to Favored Soul class level 6
◦You name an ally your Champion. Several Angel of Vengeance abilities target your Champion. You can only have one Champion at a time, and it must be another player or a hireling in your party, or a monster which you have personally summoned.

The key part is in the several abilities. We know the aura of menace has an aggro component to it. I believe that aggro component is transfered to the champion.

What makes me think this? Ran ToD with no hate gear on, my guild mate named me champion. I'm on the back side of sully, with no damage taken and pulled the aggro twice, as soon as I recommended transfering the champion to the tank, I didn't pull aggro. I could boost as normal. I've done that before and transfered the aura where the tank seemed to be having problems holding aggro.

Besides, if you're in pure healer mode and not getting hit at all, isn't even the 5% of the time the ac tank being hit (natural 20) better then no procs at all?

[Arsont]

My best guess is that the aura of menace aggro component is also transfered (when your'e in range)?

What you're missing is:

Name Champion
◦Usage: Active
◦Requires All of: Favored Soul Angel of Vengeance I
◦Available to Favored Soul class level 6
◦You name an ally your Champion. Several Angel of Vengeance abilities target your Champion. You can only have one Champion at a time, and it must be another player or a hireling in your party, or a monster which you have personally summoned.

The key part is in the several abilities. We know the aura of menace has an aggro component to it. I believe that aggro component is transfered to the champion.

What makes me think this? Ran ToD with no hate gear on, my guild mate named me champion. I'm on the back side of sully, with no damage taken and pulled the aggro twice, as soon as I recommended transfering the champion to the tank, I didn't pull aggro. I could boost as normal. I've done that before and transfered the aura where the tank seemed to be having problems holding aggro.

Besides, if you're in pure healer mode and not getting hit at all, isn't even the 5% of the time the ac tank being hit (natural 20) better then no procs at all?

Aye, I've noticed the same thing. With the Crown on, pull aggro. No Champion, no aggro. There must be something in the aura that's adding a bit of extra hate (Albeit not much, but enough).

[grodon9999]

1 Stalwart Defender +9 Casters = another fine example of DDO's imbalance today

I think it makes more sense that a guy who can shoot fire from his eyes and lightning out his arse should do more damage than a guy holding an axe.

[Cyr]

I think it makes more sense that a guy who can shoot fire from his eyes and lightning out his arse should do more damage than a guy holding an axe.

Assuming of course that the lightning or the fire does more damage per second then an axe as it would be difficult to bring both to bear at once

[LordPiglet]

I think it makes more sense that a guy who can shoot fire from his eyes and lightning out his arse should do more damage than a guy holding an axe.

What if it's a really really ****ing big axe?

[Ravoc-DDO]

I think it makes more sense that a guy who can shoot fire from his eyes and lightning out his arse should do more damage than a guy holding an axe.

Don't you think that's a bit opposed to what is in your sig?