1 Stalwart Defender +9 Casters = . . .

[Pallol_One-Eye]

I run with an LoB FvS who has full-****** barbarian DPS gear. ESoS, claw-set, ravager, etc . . .

From our tests with his meleeing and DP he was not able to hold aggro over moderately good DPS. High DPS no way. He also spent way more of his own SP keeping himself alive over what would have been needed on a high-amp fleshie.

A maxxed out LoB FvS puts out about the same melee DPS as a poorly-equipped ranger, it's really not that much.

Thanks for the answer. My dream is crushed, but I apreciate your honesty.

[Mangloid]

Curious as to how you're set up. race, gear, etc. Mind posting a break down for us (me)?

I've got a defender set up similar to the RockCandy build but I've also seen a pure ftr human defender build.

I just think it's interesting to see the variations that people have.

[voodoogroves]

People just need to not be stupid and if they are stupid let them spend the quest as a soul stone.

That said . . . if you're a "tank" and you can't hold aggro respec to an offensive PRE until you can and call yourself a "DPS." The new update will make it MUCH easier for new S&B defenders (the good ones now can still hold aggro fine) so we won't see as much silliness going forward. I don't expect a new S&B defender to hold aggro over a full-****** DPS, that'll take a full-****** tank and it should.

Yeah, my head is around the concept of the PUG and tanks, not more closed groups where you know what you've got. You know what I'm talking about - those things where you show up and someone says "who can tank" or the LFM for VOD that says "need a tank".

- Is the tank completely epic spec'd but the DPS not? If so, no problem
- Are the tanks and DPS about the same in terms of gear-ed-ness? If so, the non-tank peers need to maybe reduce their hate.
- Is the tank newer and less geared than the DPS PREs? That's the variance that will be fun in PUGs ... and kinda why I'd like to see threat somehow listed on the character sheet or otherwise objectively measured.

It'll be fun, just added risk. And ultimately it means any real tank for those will NEED intimidate. I'm not sure what the boost to threat is on a failed roll, but even that may help ... and a successful intim should do the trick anyway.

[voodoogroves]

I run with an LoB FvS who has full-****** barbarian DPS gear. ESoS, claw-set, ravager, etc . . .

From our tests with his meleeing and DP he was not able to hold aggro over moderately good DPS. High DPS no way. He also spent way more of his own SP keeping himself alive over what would have been needed on a high-amp fleshie.



A maxxed out LoB FvS puts out about the same melee DPS as a poorly-equipped ranger, it's really not that much. Compared to a full-****** barb or kensai forget it.

it's still an AWESOME build, great survivability and the DPS is good when you combine DP and melee plus it's a full-blown healer. it's just not a tank.

Keep in mind the bosses are all getting steroids next week.

I think if a FVS is going to want to do this, it's going to be more caster focused with the caster hate gear and a big shield to hide behind.

Possibly Pal 6 as well for the increased threat from Divine Righteousness, but we're talking a pretty specialized build and before you really committed to it you'd want to be sure on the threat amp / etc. since you're really looking at only a moderate mix for the rest of the time.

[grodon9999]

Curious as to how you're set up. race, gear, etc. Mind posting a break down for us (me)?

I've got a defender set up similar to the RockCandy build but I've also seen a pure ftr human defender build.

I just think it's interesting to see the variations that people have.

It's Meathelmet, the build is here. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294454

I've had significant gear upgrades since the OP. Last night he was wearing:

Head Pirate hat (+6 seeker, +15 INTIM)
Neck Stalwart
Belt Ravager
Armor Icy Rainments
Ring 1 Stalwart (20% healing amp)
Ring 2 Ravager (+2 STR)
Boots +6 CHR Skills Airguard Green Steel
Bracers Epic Jidz-Tet'ka (GFL, +6 Wisdom)
Cloak Epic Mabar
Gloves Epic Claw
Goggles Mineral II (+45 HP)
Trinket Epic Gems of many Facets (+6 DEX)

Main hand: +4 Holyburst Silver Khopesh of Greater Lawful Outsider bane
Off-hand: Mineral II Khopesh (Holy/acid/+4 AC)

[grodon9999]

I think if a FVS is going to want to do this, it's going to be more caster focused with the caster hate gear and a big shield to hide behind.

Possibly Pal 6 as well for the increased threat from Divine Righteousness, but we're talking a pretty specialized build and before you really committed to it you'd want to be sure on the threat amp / etc. since you're really looking at only a moderate mix for the rest of the time.

You gimp yourself with Pally 6 on an FvS.

Does a caster-spec'd FvS really do that much more DP damage? it has no DC and no save.

[budalic]

I run with an LoB FvS who has full-****** barbarian DPS gear. ESoS, claw-set, ravager, etc . . .

From our tests with his meleeing and DP he was not able to hold aggro over moderately good DPS. High DPS no way. He also spent way more of his own SP keeping himself alive over what would have been needed on a high-amp fleshie.

Did you try to let him stack 5 condemn procs before starting comparision? I know that one of top guilds on my server used FvS tanks shieldblocking (so no melee damage at all) to do elite ToD.

EDIT: Now this makes me wonder how will AoV nerf impact this. U11: Demise of Divine Shieldblockers? (sorcs will still be able to do it. Wizards too, probably, unless there are sorcs in party).

EDIT2: As stated below, if he doesn't have max and emp, it isn't really good comparision.

[mute_mayhem]

Does a caster-spec'd FvS really do that much more DP damage? it has no DC and no save.

Yes,

My human FvS (before he TR'ed obviously), had maximize and empower, whereas my LoB only has maximize.

Furthermore, my Human had more AP's to spend on smiting damage and crit enhancements. My LoB is very tight ap-wise, he has smiting 4 and no crit enhancements.

I saw numbers as high as 1800 on crits on my human, the highest I've seen on my LoB is about 1000.

[Truga]

When I grab more than 3 for raid s just to fill DPS slots there are people who will leave the raid, citing "not enough DPS" or "too many casters" as the issue.

Then another caster hits the LFM, and more dudes drop due to "not enough DPS" and you end up with 7 casters, 2 rogues and 3 divines. And it's the smoothest/fastest run you've had in a while :P

[voodoogroves]

You gimp yourself with Pally 6 on an FvS.

That's my point - you become a *very* specialized build - I'm sure you can handle normal content, but you're a raid tank. You may be able to generate more hate, but less overall DPS and less general usefulness.

The risk is not knowing how and when the various effects stack.

1d6+12 doubled (FVS 12 + Divine Righteousness) should be more than 1d6+20 (base 20 FVS) ... but not knowing how and when the amp from items and Divine Righteousness adds is a pretty risk build step to take.

Does a caster-spec'd FvS really do that much more DP damage? it has no DC and no save.

Not saying WIS high - but not built like a melee was more my point. You won't be generating melee hate anyway, so probably not bother so much with trying to boost melee damage other than what you need for normal questing/flagging.

Probably lots of CHA, actually maybe some intim boosters and shield mastery.

[grodon9999]

Did you try to let him stack 5 condemn procs before starting comparision? I know that one of top guilds on my server used FvS tanks shieldblocking (so no melee damage at all) to do elite ToD.

EDIT: Now this makes me wonder how will AoV nerf impact this. U11: Demise of Divine Shieldblockers? (sorcs will still be able to do it. Wizards too, probably, unless there are sorcs in party).

That takes time though, I literally hit Sulu for two seconds and said "go." if it takes time to setup your DPS you're actually doing less DPS.

The FvS last night did intentionally stand next to me to get hit purpose to get the shield of condemnation procs (no point in putting the champion on an AC tank who's design is not to get hit). I'm not sure how many stacking procs we got, Mute_mayhem was the FvS so he should be able to answer. Also keep in mind that the tanks holy damage will increase with the SOC procs as will his threat.

I'm off timer on Thursday if anyone on Ghallanda wants to try this again.

[mute_mayhem]

The FvS last night did intentionally stand next to me to get hit purpose to get the shield of condemnation procs (no point in putting the champion on an AC tank who's design is not to get hit). I'm not sure how many stacking procs we got, Mute_mayhem was the FvS so he should be able to answer.

I was able to get the stack up to 2.

I could have gotten it higher, but I only started trying to stack it when Sully was at about 25% health. Next time I'll shield block in front of him the whole time, see how high I can get it.

[voodoogroves]

I was able to get the stack up to 2.

I could have gotten it higher, but I only started trying to stack it when Sully was at about 25% health. Next time I'll shield block in front of him the whole time, see how high I can get it.

See if you can snag an Anathema and a Ring of Lies for next time ;-)

[TheDearLeader]

I am also of the group that is surprised that the sneak-humping Halfling Bard did not take aggro. That combo together is only eclipsed in raw aggro generation than a 20 Assassin doing nothing at all in Sneak Mode.

"Quick! He's standing still and we can't detect him! ATTACK!"

[voodoogroves]

I am also of the group that is surprised that the sneak-humping Halfling Bard did not take aggro. That combo together is only eclipsed in raw aggro generation than a 20 Assassin doing nothing at all in Sneak Mode.

"Quick! He's standing still and we can't detect him! ATTACK!"

I bet if he had a bow he'd have taken aggro with a quiver of sturdy +1 arrows.

[Anthios888]

We luckily got an 18/2 for the traps.

*makes fun of you*

[TheDearLeader]

I bet if he had a bow he'd have taken aggro with a quiver of sturdy +1 arrows.

/nod

Sturdy means he came prepared - and you have to take that kind out first.

[grodon9999]

I bet if he had a bow he'd have taken aggro with a quiver of sturdy +1 arrows.

LOL - we'll have the casters all hold bows next time, they'll definitely pull aggro then

[grodon9999]

*makes fun of you*

We weren't waiting for one and the traps wouldn't have killed me. I was more concerned for all the squishy warforged.

[voodoogroves]

We weren't waiting for one and the traps wouldn't have killed me. I was more concerned for all the squishy warforged.

The elite all PM shroud ignored them, relying on our overlaping, lag-inducing, ear-killing death auras to heal through it.

It was funny to get there though and realize, once everyone had zoned in, that the only 18/2 wizard split in the party was a monk.