Nerf PMs and Implosion or just make mobs save better against that

[Truga]

Ok, in all seriousness, what about simply removing the ability for quicken (read here: no concentration failure) to apply?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell


The level 6 and up spells were designed with that barrier in mind when written, after all, so it'd actually bring the game closer to it's roots.

I was thinking about this when people were saying "give us the ability to toggle metamagics per-spell." and thought: Why not just do it like it's in PNP? To maximize something you need to slot it 2 levels higher. Quicken, 4 levels higher, etc. That way you can have both versions of the spell in your bars at the same time (and no quickened heals, doooooooooooom).

[pHo3nix]

I was thinking about this when people were saying "give us the ability to toggle metamagics per-spell." and thought: Why not just do it like it's in PNP? To maximize something you need to slot it 2 levels higher. Quicken, 4 levels higher, etc. That way you can have both versions of the spell in your bars at the same time (and no quickened heals, doooooooooooom).

Just to relegate divines to be only nannybots in raid, cause no one wants to fail a raid cause the divine failed his concetration check while doing something more than keeping red bars up..

No ty, quicken is fine as it is, you pay every spell 10 sp more and you don't have to worry about concentration while casting spells, seems pretty fair.

[grodon9999]

Just to relegate divines to be only nannybots in raid, cause no one wants to fail a raid cause the divine failed his concetration check while doing something more than keeping red bars up..

No ty, quicken is fine as it is, you pay every spell 10 sp more and you don't have to worry about concentration while casting spells, seems pretty fair.

10 SP compared to a spell-slot 4 levels higher from PnP? You get a hell of a lot more untility of it it in DDO.

Something with quickened heal/reconstruct is borderline un-killable.

[Truga]

Just to relegate divines to be only nannybots in raid, cause no one wants to fail a raid cause the divine failed his concetration check while doing something more than keeping red bars up..

No ty, quicken is fine as it is, you pay every spell 10 sp more and you don't have to worry about concentration while casting spells, seems pretty fair.

Ah, but that's why mass cures cast almost instantly! :P

[pHo3nix]

10 SP compared to a spell-slot 4 levels higher from PnP? You get a hell of a lot more untility of it it in DDO.

Something with quickened heal/reconstruct is borderline un-killable.

If it wasn't in this way, why people should bother spending a feat on it? Yes, someone like me who hates slow casting could still take it, but it would only be a pretty useless feat, like extend after u9 nerf

[grodon9999]

If it wasn't in this way, why people should bother spending a feat on it? Yes, someone like me who hates slow casting could still take it, but it would only be a pretty useless feat, like extend after u9 nerf

Regardless . . . it's one of those over-powered "things" that breaks DDO. Un-interuptable spells on moving self-healing arcanes is BROKEN OTT too powerful. Using PnP as a guideline Casters are supposed to have this much offense, they aren't supposed to have 600 HP and the ability to self-heal.

I don't think they should change it because like Khopesh it's too hard to un-ring that bell.

[gloopygloop]

Regardless . . . it's one of those over-powered "things" that breaks DDO. Un-interuptable spells on moving self-healing arcanes is BROKEN OTT too powerful. Using PnP as a guideline Casters are supposed to have this much offense, they aren't supposed to have 600 HP and the ability to self-heal.

I don't think they should change it because like Khopesh it's too hard to un-ring that bell.

Using PnP guidelines, enemies also aren't supposed to have 100,000+ HP.

If we went by PnP guidelines, then buck-naked Arcane casters would have more melee DPS than Fighters and Barbarians and still have all the advantages that DDO casters have. Moving closer to PnP guidelines will not make casters less powerful when compared to melee types.

[grodon9999]

Using PnP guidelines, enemies also aren't supposed to have 100,000+ HP.

If we went by PnP guidelines, then buck-naked Arcane casters would have more melee DPS than Fighters and Barbarians and still have all the advantages that DDO casters have. Moving closer to PnP guidelines will not make casters less powerful when compared to melee types.

The inflated HP in DDO is to account for the limits of the AI. When/if the AI can get smarter they won't need as many HP but I think we're a few generations of processors away from seeing this. Who knows if we'll still be playing DDO by then . . .

Are you saying that 600 HP and self-healing on an Arcane caster isn't over-powered? In PnP arcanes needed a meat-shield, they don't in DDO which is where the balance fails.

[gloopygloop]

The inflated HP in DDO is to account for the limits of the AI. When/if the AI can get smarter they won't need as many HP but I think we're a few generations of processors away from seeing this. Who knows if we'll still be playing DDO by then . . .

Are you saying that 600 HP and self-healing on an Arcane caster isn't over-powered? In PnP arcanes needed a meat-shield, they don't in DDO which is where the balance fails.

PnP arcanes need NOTHING.
Best PnP melee class - Wizard/Sorcerer, tied with Druid
Best PnP save-or-die class - Wizard
Best PnP class for getting past traps - Wizard
Best PnP class for traveling without danger - Wizard
Best PnP class for getting in and out of a location undetected - Wizard

The only time that PnP arcanes needed a meat shield is for the first couple of levels until they learned Polymorph and even before then, Hold Person and Evard's Hentai Tentacles take care of most melee just fine.

[voodoogroves]

The systems are similar, but the scaling, etc. are way, way off.

I've had tanky-caster types in PNP, but truthfully very few using Reconstruct - just not the same environment. Plenty of CoDzilla types though. Regardless, melees are essentially irrelevant in late game PNP except when the DM spends the time and effort to ensure they are not. If you're playing open-book-whatever, casters don't just dominate PNP DPR game, they alter reality.

...

But, DDO is different. We can put limits on things, and that's goodness. The difficulty is that in order to truly challenge varying character abilities and allow for alternate strategies the best way to do that is to add variety to the challenges in the game from the DM (Turbine).

I still think i'd rather they did that in new content going forward than recycling old.

[Lissyl]

PnP arcanes need NOTHING.
Best PnP melee class - Wizard/Sorcerer, tied with Druid
Best PnP save-or-die class - Wizard
Best PnP class for getting past traps - Wizard
Best PnP class for traveling without danger - Wizard
Best PnP class for getting in and out of a location undetected - Wizard

The only time that PnP arcanes needed a meat shield is for the first couple of levels until they learned Polymorph and even before then, Hold Person and Evard's Hentai Tentacles take care of most melee just fine.

I detect the presence of /tg/ or GitP, one. Soooo many variables overlooked in the oft-trotted-out 'Best class' list.

Instituting closer-to-pnp-rules would not be nearly so problematic in DDO because many of the things everyone complains about being 'broken' couldn't be replicated in the environment ~anyway~. The AI would be a problem, though.

[gloopygloop]

I detect the presence of /tg/ or GitP, one. Soooo many variables overlooked in the oft-trotted-out 'Best class' list.

Instituting closer-to-pnp-rules would not be nearly so problematic in DDO because many of the things everyone complains about being 'broken' couldn't be replicated in the environment ~anyway~. The AI would be a problem, though.

In that case, it wouldn't actually be closer to the PnP rules, would it?

There are only a few things that break 3.0 and 3.5 and I'm of the opinion that 3.0 and 3.5 are "less broken" than AD&D. Those few things that are overpowered just make Druids and Wizards/Sorcerers absolutely rediculous.

Yes, Polymorph, I'm looking at you!

[Lissyl]

In that case, it wouldn't actually be closer to the PnP rules, would it?

There are only a few things that break 3.0 and 3.5 and I'm of the opinion that 3.0 and 3.5 are "less broken" than AD&D. Those few things that are overpowered just make Druids and Wizards/Sorcerers absolutely rediculous.

Yes, Polymorph, I'm looking at you!

Polymorph and Fly are my big 2, along with a couple others. ALL of which were changed from the (much more balanced except for poor rogues) 2nd edition.

But that's another thread in a different forum.

Some changes could easily be made to accommodate more pnp rules though, which would be 'closer'. I REALLY like the poster's suggestion of the 'memorize the metamagic version in its appropriate slot'. I mean ~REALLYREALLYREALLY~ like, even though it might cut down my personal 'power' some.

[fool101]

Unfortunately I haven't been able to read this entire thread yet, but I have a suggestion.

First, I am not too big a fan of nerfs, but if one was ever considered for PM, I would rather share my idea of how to do it. My main is a PM afterall. If this has been suggested earlier I apologize.

I say put a debuff on players after all uses of a AOE death spell. Something that say lasts 1 min and decreases the DC by 1 and decreases hp by 10 (not max hp, just current hp), and stacks until the timer ticks off. This would likely not influence non-epic content much unless a person is continuously wailing, and it would at least make epics like Last Stand mildly more interesting, but not much so.

[HAL]

Because god mode makes the game no fun at all.

Don't believe me? Try running Waterworks on Casual with a full group of level 12 characters. That's what running Epics is like at the moment.

My Pale Master has no impressive gear, no Wizard past lives, hasn't used their +3 Int tome, and still solos pretty much anything. Circle, Wail, kite gathering more mobs for 30 seconds, rinse, repeat. PWK or Energy Drain anything with a high save. That's a 42 DC.

You didn't answer the question. Why punish those who DON'T have a high DC (i.e. don't have "god mode")? If you nerf the spell, you nerf it for everyone. If your problem is high DCs, nerf the high DCs.

[Thrudh]

From Dictionary.com.

Par - an average, usual, or normal amount, degree, quality, condition, standard, or the like

His character is not 'subpar'. Your desires for a character are instead 'well above par', nearing 'superb', or 'supreme'; 'quintessential'.

This is what I mean when I say you can see how the language really influences the thoughts people have on their characters. A copycat build that you nabbed off the forums is NOT a 'par' build. It is expressly made for the extreme maximization of all abilities. If you create an uber character then find the game is boring, guess what -- the fault is yours.

The game should be balanced around par, to perhaps slightly-better-than-par. It should NOT be balanced around Top Flight Competitive-Grade.

Excellent post +1

[HAL]

you could exclude wizards from your group or gimp your wizard if you play one. while i believe that they need to finish they need to fix alot of things to create harmony and balance, i would much prefer radiant servant III first.

I agree with this: if you want more of a challenge then challenge yourself. Don't take the spells you think are OP or don't allow them in your group. If you PUG, make it a rule that any arcane can't use them in your runs. Why be selfish and nerf the game for everyone when there is this simple solution?

[KoboldKiller]

Developers in case you were not aware it is tough to get a 45+ dc on your instakills unless you are a palemaster or have wizard/sorcerer past lives on your favored soul or cleric. I guess I am a little selfish in asking this from the standpoint of the vast majority of players have not even heard of past lives or have the capacity to get a +45 dc on their pale master/fvs/cleric, but for those of us that run in those groups it sucks runnning with people that can get a +45 dc on instakills. I would recommend that you figure out a method for allowing pale masters to have their fun but allowing the rest of us to also have our fun. The signal that you are sending is leave the game or roll up a palemaster or have multiple sorc past lives for your FVS or cleric. Honestly I am not joking. This is not a very good signal to send for the end game, because most people will just leave.

I'm finding this a bit contradictory.

You say the DC is hard to achieve unless you build specifically for it and then you say those who have built for it are ruining your fun.

So basically you want the DC raised in order to punish those who did what was needed to achieve that DC or just punish all casters by nerfing the spell so you can have more fun?

I don't find it particularly fun to run in a group if melees who have every piece of epic or raid gear. I don't have all that gear and it makes me less of a member of the group but I am not begrudging them something they built and planned for.

[grodon9999]

I'd LOVE to see polymorph, shapechange, fly, and all that other stuff casters are supposed to have. More than a fair trade for self-healing an 600 HP.

[Emili]

Every single raid relied on and still relies on a Hjealer much more than it relies on an Arcane caster. Does that mean that Clerics and FvS (and some Bards) are more far more powerful than any melee or Arcane casting character?

Ummm... mind you is only shroud on norm but Harry was dead in part five in under seventeen seconds (I know so because I looked at my buff bar on DF when someone mentions seemed slow but much easier than many other runs)... We'll we did take some time in part four and I think mainly because people were just fiddlin' round some. In fact come part five likewise, but gestate since we were not really interested in speed records or such we were slack.

Consider that these are only average divines, a mix of a couple more tweaked, plenty average and maybe a few yet to be geared up... 150.000/17 = 8823,5/10 (i'll place 10 even though cleric and a few primarily cast heals on occasions along with placement of light nuking combined spell/melee dps output yields) = 882,35.

Now let's consider the average bab 20 classes sport between 400 to 650 dps (according to the forum number crunchers pre-u9) so if we take the mean of 525 dps (since we're looking at an average grouping) we would need (150.000/525)/17 = 16,8 full BaB melee to actually duplicate this. In such I have to conclude that somewhere around 10 average divines = 16,8 average 20 BaB melee builds in terms of dps. Mind you the divine are borrowing blue bar in damage spells to compensate their melee - however that is exactly what we do with a barb ... we use blue bar so he may keep meleeing.

Actual scope of things are simply put... mana is power, blue bar is versitility, it's dps, it's utility, it's suvivability all in one to be used as you see fit in using - flexibility in scope.