Enough with the insta kills in epics?

[Khurse]

The idea seems to be (again) that people seemed to have no issue with my caster holding every mob (so it couldn't fight back at all) and keeping them raged and hasted while they beat down the helpless mobs with any number of high crit weapons.

But let the caster kill something and suddenly it's not fun?

The answer is fairly simple.
If you don't want casters to kill something, run epics without instakill capable casters. Run with 4 melees a bard and a cleric. Make your own groups.

[shores11]

I agree with the OP. Endgame content on elite and epic is becoming pathetic to be nice. Players have whined and complained so much that the game was unfair in many aspects and the developers gave in instead of standing their ground and explaining their concept.

If your going to have different difficulty settings then that is what they should be. Please stop nerfing the game and take full use of the definition of hard, elite, epic. If every player can complete quests on hard, elite or epic then one should question if those quests live up to the bill of those difficulty settings. I know elite and epic used to but now it is only for getting a higher amount of XP and favor. Unfortunately with the DDO store favor means nothing at all (Thats another topic: Why not just remove the favor system?).

[Tammuz]

That would explain it. The game cannot and should not be balanced for elite players, it should be balanced for the average paying customer, and trust me, average paying customer doesn't waltz'n'wail through epics.

I can agree with this statement. In the same vein, no game should be designed under the assumption all players will be optimized and/or will have ground out all of the best gear.

[delsoboss]

(Thats another topis: Why not just remove the favor system?).

'Cause I and many others are f2p and enjoy to grind out some TP so get your hands off the favor system.

[noinfo]

There are some serious concerns with endgame play in my view. I have a barbarian with full epic gear, but can hardly contribute in epic quests because of the instant kills. Casters and assassin rogues kill trash mobs so fast, that I only have a chance of landing two or three hits before the mob goes down. It is kinda depressing that regular melee can only contribute when there are red or orange named mobs. This was less of an issue before the change in epics, and I feel we should (partially) revert back to that system.

I have no issue with any of my melee at all. Why should a caster be support to melee and not the other way around? Taking out held mobs or cc mobs was just padding kill counts and nothing more. If a caster drops multiple mobs I am usually still busy and I run with people with max DC instakills. I don't expect my melee to lead them in kill counts. Casters now have flexiblity and that is good. A good melee will have a place in any group, position, target prioritisation etc, there is more to melee then the "Max DPS" mindset that has dominated epics just so they could take out a held mob 1 second earlier.

[Aaxeyu]

I don't understand the people who says that before the changes casters were just haste bots etc.
You do know that casters dominated epic quests even before u9, right?

[Aaxeyu]

That would explain it. The game cannot and should not be balanced for elite players, it should be balanced for the average paying customer, and trust me, average paying customer doesn't waltz'n'wail through epics.

Well, some parts of the game should be balanced for elite players. Epic is supposed to be for the best of the best, so balancing accordingly would be a good idea IMO.

[Kmnh]

I don't understand the people who says that before the changes casters were just haste bots etc.
You do know that casters dominated epic quests even before u9, right?

No, they don't. Taking a PUG caster before u9 was usually a bad idea, much like a PUG rogue.

[Khurse]

I don't understand the people who says that before the changes casters were just haste bots etc.
You do know that casters dominated epic quests even before u9, right?

Yes, but when 44/45 DC casters were spending all their time mass-holding all the trash mobs, as well as keeping the party hasted, there were very few complaints on the forums.

There were some complaints that casters could solo stuff, but very few complaints about them having hold DC's that were too high.

[shores11]

'Cause I and many others are f2p and enjoy to grind out some TP so get your hands off the favor system.

Don't get me wrong I am so pro-favor system it isn't even funny and I am VIP. The favor system when implemented to the game I thought was ingenious and an extremely nice addition. It has just been dimished a bit by the DDO store.

[shores11]

I don't understand the people who says that before the changes casters were just haste bots etc.
You do know that casters dominated epic quests even before u9, right?

I think the period when casters struggled most is when epic level questing first came out.

[k1ngp1n]

Here's a crazy idea: raise the fort saves on epic mobs!

Instead of changing everything all over again, lets maybe make epic mobs epic! Whoduthunkit?

[Sydril]

Casters should only be able to cast merfolks blessing and spawnscreen.

They should also have their hit points reduced to 1 per level.

[Rdonaccount]

I think the period when casters struggled most is when epic level questing first came out.

I don't think casters ever really struggled in epics. at least, they never struggled to find groups for epics, unlike most raids pre-u9.

Pre u5 (minion debuff), casters were a necessary part of most groups, just for the cheese tactics of firewall + jump to a safe spot. Weighted weapons sped up dps, but waiting for the 5% stun to trigger wasn't reliable enough to count on alone, so an arcane to draw attention was almost necessary for most epic groups (not talking about the cream of the crop). In fact, it was so important to keep up firewall, most pugs I saw at the time ran with 2 arcanes, just so their wouldn't be sp issues.

Post u5, groups could get by without an arcane fairly easily, assuming they had a few good stunning monks. But mass hold was so simple and elegant, arcanes were still welcome. 1 mass hold was cheaper and more effective than the previous max/emp/extend firewall and hide method, so more than 1 caster was generally seen as a waste. We were basically in the same spot as with raids, 1 caster only, rest melees and someone to heal them.

Now, I agree with Khurse. It's a bit silly to complain that arcanes are dominating now, when they were doing the same thing before, just letting you get the kills instead. However, I'm still of the opinion that "one button to rule them all" gameplay is still the wrong way to go. (now its just wail/CoD instead of mass hold/haste) Once if gets to the point that a max necro/enchant caster is preferring to wail instead of mass hold on anything, regardless of the mob's fort vs. will save, then something is wrong. Ideally, the highest epics should still be a challenge, even for a perfectly built caster.

[Chai]

The previous incarnation of epics was more limiting to casters than the current incarnarion of epics is to melee. I dont have an issue getting into groups, doing my job as a melee, but previously I had an issue on my caster because the only ones that were wanted was 40+ CC DC. While this is still an option, its no longer the pigeonhole where casters live, heh.

[Lux-Aeterna]

Firstly, let’s not pretend that it is easy to get necromancy dcs into the range where you can be an effective instakiller in epics. I have a 43 dc, which is pretty close to the upper end of achievable necro dcs, (unless you start adding relatively absurd things like +4 tomes, completionist, abishai cookie sets, and house D/Store pots) and I still often have to prep mobs to reliably kill them. When I run an epic, throwing out tons of instakills, most people are surprised by it. It just is not something that is very common, or that everyone can do without a lot of effort.

Secondly, when the was the last time an epic group (that was even reasonably competent) failed because they couldn’t handle the trash mobs? A notable exception will be Epic Devil Assault, but those creatures tend to have saves beyond even an optimized necro caster's ability. What is the problem if the casters speed up the progression to the red and orange names where the melee will take over?

Thirdly, it has been said a few times before, but no one seemed to be upset that for a very long time casters were nothing but mass hold and haste bots in epics. Why can't we have our fun now? Who cares who gets the kill as long as the party completes?

[Fenrisulven6]

There are some serious concerns with endgame play in my view. I have a barbarian with full epic gear, but can hardly contribute in epic quests because of the instant kills.

No worries. Next mod, Turbine will hand Stormbringer and Mournblade to every melee.

And Psions will evaporate mobs through walls.

Yay "Winning!"

Every quest will have a red button at the entrance. Press to auto-complete.

[Lycurgus]

There is one very simple solution. In your LFM, state "1 arcane, 38 or lower dc."

Many, if not most, folks seemed perfectly content putting up LFMs prior to update 9 stating dc requirements. You still have that power.

[Trillea]

That would explain it. The game cannot and should not be balanced for elite players, it should be balanced for the average paying customer, and trust me, average paying customer doesn't waltz'n'wail through epics.

The entire game should not, no. But there should be content that is difficult for the most tricked out as well.

[voodoogroves]

Here's a crazy idea: raise the fort saves on epic mobs!

Instead of changing everything all over again, lets maybe make epic mobs epic! Whoduthunkit?

Blanket things are bad. Instead of giving everyone the same "ward" ...

I still want to see epic mobs adjusted somewhat; like raise their highest save by another 3 or so. Make their strengths and weaknesses variable, but still bypassable. Give SOME of them actual deathblock, others actual FOM. Maybe base this on monster type and/or the quest(s) involved. Give a great many of them resists, some even elemental protection or absorption.

Not all of them the same accross the board - variety.

That should keep the single-tactic boring stuff minimized.