Enough with the insta kills in epics?

[Shade]

Theirs half a dozen casters (that i know of and so do you i think) running about on Khyber with Dc's at 50 odd which is enough to drop the lot in EDA. Poor ole Zexxi never even shot a rat.

heh well zexxi doesn't get much kills when he ran that with me either, so maybe not the best comparison.

And DC50 is using things like house d potions, abishai cookies, store pots, ..Things that aren't exactly available in easy unlimited amounts. So in that regard, I think they shouldn't be balanced against.

But without that, the DCs are 45ish.. Which should be balanced against better. There's no reason why it should just work just becayse you TR'd once and have a +4 tome. It's too easy. Heavy use of debuffs should be required to have much succcess versus the tougher mobs.

And yea, players like us who chewed up and crushed the original epic versions that the devs deemed too difficult obvious don't have much of a challenge left in this new dumbed down versions. Oh well. At least the bosses haven't changed too much.

[Aaxeyu]

That's correct, a point that I'm not sure you seem to fully comprehend. Melees still can and do contribute, arguably the same amount as they used to, it's just not as apparent in the kill count anymore. If you're not happy with helping your group succeed, then that's a you problem.

No, on mobs that are killed by insta death spells melee does not contribute. That's what I'm saying. You people are saying that mass hold and mass insta death is essentially the same thing.
If that was true, and everyone who complains are melees who are grumpy for not getting an "arbitrary number on a scoreboard", then I can just aswell say that those who defend it are grumpy casters who just want an "arbitrary number on a scoreboard".

But the truth actually is that melee contribute far less, and a very insignificant consequent of that is that the kill counts change.

Epics were dumb before, they are better now. Are they perfect? No, but they have taken a major step in the right direction.

Epics were dumb before, they are worse now. Are they perfect? No, but they have taken a major step in the right direction at the same time as they have taken an even greater step backward.

[Fenrisulven6]

The "it's-too-easy" crowd has already done it a million times.

Its BOTH. I have a rogue parked at 8th to help newbie pugs with Tear, Gywlans, etc.

I've run Tear 250 times on that toon. But it was never boring until Sorcs started making the quest a joke.

So now, I just ban Sorcs from my groups. Problem solved?

[Viisari]

My sorc's dps is still more overwhelming then most wizards ability to instakill

I dont think the problem is instakills, its player skills. Any good player whether melee or caster will be able to tear through epic quests without any problem. I see it in all my guild members, barbarians and rogues in my guilds getting 50+ kills in eDA.

Just because you might group with these good players dosent mean they need to be nerfed because you aren't at the level YOU want to be yet.

Just keep working on ur melee and through work you will have just as much power as a good caster.

Run with better casters and your melees will be lucky to get 10 kills each.

All the people saying that you need multiple TR's for high DC are wrong. There's exactly one past life that increases necro DC, the wizard one, so in reality you only need one TR unless you want completionist. Spell penetration isn't really an issue most of the time.

And really now, claiming that your melee will have the same kind of power in endgame content as a caster with comparable gear will is wrong on so many levels it's not even funny. Heck, I could solo one of the temples in Epic The Deeps on my caster, show me a melee that can do that.

And no, my wizard isn't a multi-TR, he's only got one past life, the wizard one, and that isn't even required to be effective one you get some gear. Epics ARE NOT supposed to be easy for undergeared toons, they're supposed to be very difficult, I can count with one hand the epic quests that truly require a high dc on some spells to be truly effective, high being over 40.

[Arwitch]

The focus of most of the replies has been on arcanes... I haven't read the last 2 pages though.

Here is the perspective of an assassin rogue.

I seriously considered respeccing to a mechanic at one point because everything that made me great in non-epic quests was completely useless in epics. No-one wanted assassins because they believed that we were unable to handle epic traps (I do fine by the way, can spot, find and disable with no problems at all) and basically we were only accepted as the last person or in a group of friends and guildies who knew our dps was awesome, especially with amazing sneak attack on held mobs.

I had this fantastic prestige enhancement that was being wasted.

My assassin is now my favourite toon to take into epics. She can assassinate drow casters who still pose some problems for arcanes with their high saves. There are also higher fort mobs she can't assassinate. She is not overpowered now, she is simply using all her abilities as they should be used.

I have been in a couple of epics where the caster has raced ahead and killed everything before we even got inside. Basically we followed behind and looked for treasure bags, but these casters behave the same in normal quests. I try not to group with them because they are not team players, plain and simple. I like to PLAY the game, not watch someone else do it :P

It's all about teamwork and that's down to the player.

[ORIGINALBAG0]

The focus of most of the replies has been on arcanes... I haven't read the last 2 pages though.

Here is the perspective of an assassin rogue.

I seriously considered respeccing to a mechanic at one point because everything that made me great in non-epic quests was completely useless in epics. No-one wanted assassins because they believed that we were unable to handle epic traps (I do fine by the way, can spot, find and disable with no problems at all) and basically we were only accepted as the last person or in a group of friends and guildies who knew our dps was awesome, especially with amazing sneak attack on held mobs.

I had this fantastic prestige enhancement that was being wasted.

My assassin is now my favourite toon to take into epics. She can assassinate drow casters who still pose some problems for arcanes with their high saves. There are also higher fort mobs she can't assassinate. She is not overpowered now, she is simply using all her abilities as they should be used.

I have been in a couple of epics where the caster has raced ahead and killed everything before we even got inside. Basically we followed behind and looked for treasure bags, but these casters behave the same in normal quests. I try not to group with them because they are not team players, plain and simple. I like to PLAY the game, not watch someone else do it :P

It's all about teamwork and that's down to the player.

Mad rep there.

I hear all of this complaining about how U9 nerfed this, U9 made that overpowered, U9 killed my dog and told my sister she's adopted... It's nice to hear from the group that got shafted the hardest in epics before U9. Assassins are DPS powerhouses, and their PRE abilities were completely negated by epic ward. U9 validated them again.

And, as a melee, you have no place to complain. You still needed a caster to do the heavy lifting in the pre U9 mass-hold/beatdown days. Or, you needed the class that got slapped the hardest by U9, monks. Monks no longer get the autocrits that not only need to do their optimal DPS, they also generate ki at an extremely stunted rate.

Sorry that you auto-attack and tab strategy was developed for nothing, but I know alot of monks that worked way harder to do way more impressive things who have little to no desire to play anymore because the very core of their class skills was ripped away.

tl;dr Yay for casters and assassins, melees can cry in the street, and monks deserve a candlelight vigil with Elton John raising money for their burials.

[slimkj]

I remember plenty of all caster/cleric parties back then.

You are looking at it the wrong way, that the playerbase gravitates to a certain class is not the problem, it's a symptom.
It doesn't matter if you don't "only play for efficiency", balance is still important.

Really? Weren't you Boldrei/Keeper too? I have a bad memory so you are probably right.

I don't actually disagree that instakill and epics require further tweaking. I guess I just doubt it'll have the profound effect on the make up of classes in the game that people fear. The efficiency thing was just one of the reasons I don't think we'll end up with servers full of people playing casters - something oft quoted as a reason to tweak. I'm not opposed to tweaking for balance itself.

[Aaxeyu]

Assassins were awesome in epic before U9 aswell.

[Aaxeyu]

Really? Weren't you Boldrei/Keeper too? I have a bad memory so you are probably right.

I don't actually disagree that instakill and epics require further tweaking. I guess I just doubt it'll have the profound effect on the make up of classes in the game that people fear. The efficiency thing was just one of the reasons I don't think we'll end up with servers full of people playing casters - something oft quoted as a reason to tweak. I'm not opposed to tweaking for balance itself.

I did not mean that everyone will only play casters. My point was that you can't say that it's better to have overpowered casters than overpowered melees just because some LFMs are still just taking one caster and few are taking only one melee.

[svinja]

EG: Your DC38 caster should get at best a 15% chance versus mobs mean to be easy.. And a 5% versus hard ones.
Your DC44 caster would then have 45% chance versus easy ones.. But still a 5% versus hard ones - but only just barely. IE: Give them 43 fort save. So insta kills are still well within the realm of possbility.. But just might require advanced tactics like energy drain, curse, etc first before the attempt.

This doesn't work because there is not enough SP to do this with any semblance of efficiency, it's better to just spam damage spells then. With infinite SP I'd agree with you completely. But if you need to debuff a mob so much (43 fort save??) it's not worth doing at all.

[Viisari]

Sorry that you auto-attack and tab strategy was developed for nothing, but I know alot of monks that worked way harder to do way more impressive things who have little to no desire to play anymore because the very core of their class skills was ripped away.

U9 nerfed bad monks, the good ones are still doing amazing stuff.

[slimkj]

I did not mean that everyone will only play casters. My point was that you can't say that it's better to have overpowered casters than overpowered melees just because some LFMs are still just taking one caster and few are taking only one melee.

Ah, though I didn't say it was better. Just that I thought it wouldn't mean no more melees in groups and cited past experience as one reason I hold that belief. I really don't disagree with balance passes in general where warranted.

They've always been OP in some ways, now more ways, and frankly I'm surprised there's not more fuss about FVS since they were introduced. I just don't see it being the end of melee in DDO. People still pewpew after years of humdrum performance!

[KillEveryone]

Assassins were awesome in epic before U9 aswell.

I'm not saying they were not but the main feature of their third tier of that PrE was useless.

[Alanim]

I'd like it if epic mobs had a 50% chance of carrying a deathblock item, but it could be disjuncted and then the mob could be instant killed, I'd also like of the casters used mass DW more often giving a use to greater dispel. this way casters just need to adjust how they play epics slightly, while not turning them into buffbots. Melees would then be able to contribute and not feel useless :P.

[Voxreal]

OK i can see the aruguments on all sides it is less fun to play Melee in epic now where in casters could not use their "FUN" spells befor. With 90% of this game being the "KICK IN THE DOOR" style as termed by the 3.5DMG this is going to be hard to balance where one is not going to lead over the other even more so in higher levels where it is harder to balance. In the past their where blanket immunities that made all conserned a little mad their are still some that consern a few and should not be gone back to. MY sugestion to balance things a little more on the caster side is use a tool that D&D has had since 1st ed. that is "Anti-Magic" this term implies more than just dispel yes dispel takes away your buffs well and good anti-magic works on buffs, equipment, and casting kinda like quel.
Now what would this mean if anti-magic ray/field and the other spells that counter spells and caster where used casters would have to be a little less agro think anycaster can hit you with an anti-magic ray and you can no longer cast and all of your equipment no long acts as magical for the time that the spell is in effect if the enemy caster throughs a field they can no longer cast but the "good" can not eather and now both teams have no magic items so this can hurt both classes.

What The Change Should Be: Give the Mobs Death Ward (but make it Dispellable), Make the Mobs stats act like ours we have to work to get the gear they should as well (Not just be able to hit like use with no gear) Make this dispellable, Add The wepon effects Binding(acts as Dimensional Anchor on hit target) Dispelling (acts as Dispel Magic on hit target), Add the Spells AntiMagic Ray and AntiMagic Field, make it possable to fully debuff mobs agian make "Anti Magic" an artform. what will this do A it puts in place controlls to make the game more challanging for Casters and Melee but the counters will be in place.

[Aaxeyu]

I'm not saying they were not but the main feature of their third tier of that PrE was useless.

Well, that's not really the end of the world when they have so much else going for them.

[bruha118]

Wait, What? We still have epic quest in this game?

[HallowedOne]

Made me giggle.

http://www.harpercollins.com/harperi...0380821211.jpg

Many people here don't know what it is to play a game with advanced AI. Careful.

[steelblueskies]

Stopped at page 6.
[considered thoughtful wall of text deleted]

if everyone had a thankful role before, then it's simple.
Nerf arcanes by removing their cc, haste, rage, blur spells.

Give said spells to fighters and barbarians.
Enjoy your acceptable level of win.

Don't like that idea much now do you?

Well two classes out of all of them with no inherent self healing or party buffs. And at a stretch they get some singletarget cc. Beyond that they're dps and/or tanking unless they add in other classes splashes.
Seems like a party unfriendly waste of a group slot to me. So throw barbarians and fighters a utility bone or two.

Upping epic saves solves nothing, but breaks a great deal. It's a cold war game of ever rising dc versus ever rising saves. We are already running in the realm of a single digit window give or take, between minimum needed and absolute sustainable maximum dc.

The spells were balanced to work but have a long cooldown. Cooldown isn't shared between toons, so bring more and break the system.

End of the day though, it doesn't matter.
Epic pass upcoming, and challenge system overhaul upcoming. A range and melée pass leading up to that.
Go play a class with more party friendliness then pure fighter or barbarian until those broken classes get fixed for the way they build quests, or be more selective in your parties. Maybe start some all melée runs.

Not that anyone will listen or care. After all we are all customers and therefore all right. Or something.

Sigh.

[Riksha]

if a epic mobs see a deth spell go off it should cast dw on itself like the eladrin in running with the devils.
it would also be nice if casters were forced to use buff removing spells like disjunction or greater dispell