Enough with the insta kills in epics?

[ORIGINALBAG0]

There is one very simple solution. In your LFM, state "1 arcane, 38 or lower dc."

Many, if not most, folks seemed perfectly content putting up LFMs prior to update 9 stating dc requirements. You still have that power.

Argh!

"You must spread more reputation before you can derp-a-derp."

I'll get you next time, Fin of clan Doodle! NEXT TIIIIIIIIIIME!!!!

[Fenrisulven6]

There is one very simple solution. In your LFM, state "1 arcane, 38 or lower dc."

Or just ban arcanes. Thats what I do.

[Impaqt]

lol... Mass hold and mindless chop chop chop or Instakill boredom...

Whats less boring?

What it comes down to is trash mobs in epics are time wasters. they are in there so we dont complete every EPic quest in 3 minutes. thats all..... how we end up killing them is of no consequence.

the real fix to balance the epic quests? add a few more orange and red named to every quest. make those mobs have a much higher chance of dropping scrolls.

[kmau]

I'm currently on a barbarian life and I find the occasional instakill from my fellows very convenient.

[dingal]

You think that haste/rage/mass hold or healing are thankful tasks cause you are a barbarian..arcanes and divines have fun killing mobs too, being relegated to support your mighty barbarian is not that fun at all..

Is epic in its current implementation perfect? No.
Is it better than before? Sure it is.
So, evolving from here is fine, reverting back to the boredom pre u9 no.

Is epic "better" than before? Absolutely not. It presents literally zero challenge and is infinitely easier than before.

I have come to love playing my caster but I've now got 2 extremely and 1 good geared melee that I almost never touch because it's pointless. I keep them on timer for raids just to go for loot but there's very little need for them except in TOD.

I run most of the epics I run nowadays with no melee at all, no divines 90% of the time. Casters can easily tank bosses so what's the point?

I don't want a nerf, I enjoy having a different playstyle. What I want to see is higher epic mob saves and more creative epic mob spells that make the quests more challenging. Then increased drop rates so we don't have to grind more challenging quests 10000000 times to get a shard or seal.

[dingal]

I'm currently on a barbarian life and I find the occasional instakill from my fellows very convenient.

Your fellows are doing it wrong

[Chai]

I don't understand the people who says that before the changes casters were just haste bots etc.
You do know that casters dominated epic quests even before u9, right?

In a group they were recruited for being mass hold bots. They were rarely recruited for DPS roles.

Solo they were perching and crit fishing.

Nowdays, even when some group leaders still try to take their spot in the group hostage only allowing CC DC 40+ casters into the group, and only recruiting one at that, casters still prove they can fulfill other roles, and keep up with the jonses while doing so.

The group leaders who have started thinking more outside the pre U9 box who recruit casters into DPS roles and have more than one in groups are finding this to be a boon.

[dingal]

In a group they were recruited for being mass hold bots. They were rarely recruited for DPS roles.

Solo they were perching and crit fishing.

Nowdays, even when some group leaders still try to take their spot in the group hostage only allowing CC DC 40+ casters into the group, and only recruiting one at that, casters still prove they can fulfill other roles, and keep up with the jonses while doing so.

The group leaders who have started thinking more outside the pre U9 box who recruit casters into DPS roles and have more than one in groups are finding this to be a boon.

I personally find that 6 or 12 is the perfect number depending on whether or not it's a quest or raid.

[Forzah]

First of all, I'm a bit tired of comments like: "Don't like it? Then don't run with a caster". Sure I can run without a caster, it's very doable in some of the easier epics. How does that solve the problem? I'm not gonna create groups specifically around not having a caster just for this: I want the quest to be done as fast as possible as well... but it should still remain challenging. I think Dingal (and some others) put it very well. The problem we are addressing here is broader and is that of the game becoming too easy.

Is epic "better" than before? Absolutely not. It presents literally zero challenge and is infinitely easier than before.

I have come to love playing my caster but I've now got 2 extremely and 1 good geared melee that I almost never touch because it's pointless. I keep them on timer for raids just to go for loot but there's very little need for them except in TOD.

I run most of the epics I run nowadays with no melee at all, no divines 90% of the time. Casters can easily tank bosses so what's the point?

I don't want a nerf, I enjoy having a different playstyle. What I want to see is higher epic mob saves and more creative epic mob spells that make the quests more challenging. Then increased drop rates so we don't have to grind more challenging quests 10000000 times to get a shard or seal.

This is exactly what I mean. And the suggestions Dingal comes up with are precisely what is needed.

[cdemeritt]

/not signed....

The mindless stunfest/mass hold of before....no thank you.

Yes nuking is easier now too, but before if you were not an evoker archmage, there was very little for you to do.

[pHo3nix]

Is epic "better" than before? Absolutely not. It presents literally zero challenge and is infinitely easier than before.

I have come to love playing my caster but I've now got 2 extremely and 1 good geared melee that I almost never touch because it's pointless. I keep them on timer for raids just to go for loot but there's very little need for them except in TOD.

I run most of the epics I run nowadays with no melee at all, no divines 90% of the time. Casters can easily tank bosses so what's the point?

I don't want a nerf, I enjoy having a different playstyle. What I want to see is higher epic mob saves and more creative epic mob spells that make the quests more challenging. Then increased drop rates so we don't have to grind more challenging quests 10000000 times to get a shard or seal.

Why it's easier? Maybe it's faster, but before 40+ enchantment DC=win, now 42+ necro DC=win, i don't see any difference except than now casters have a choice, before they got none. And now sorcs can nuke too, before in epic quests they just were gimped wizards unless they put a lot of work in their enchantment DC.
Or are you trying to say that beating on held mobs was a challenge?

[Aaxeyu]

I personally find that 6 or 12 is the perfect number depending on whether or not it's a quest or raid.

Some random pug leaders only want a few, or less, caster so they are obviously perfectly balanced!

[bigolbear]

ok i understand your upset your not getting kills but honestly a mele IS contributing by tying up the enemy while the arcanes and roges get the killing done - this is no diferent from lvls 1 to 19.

epic is fubar, i think deep down we all know this. What epic does is take your character and invalidate half of it - clerics are just healbots, casters were just crowd control and meles were just boss damage, rogues are either trap monkey or assassins as dps seems irelevant.

atleast they fixed it for casters now - sort of. a normal sorc cant CC in epic and a normal wiz cant dps.

Epic is ludicrous, turning everything up to 11 is not the way forward. Wana play a quest on epic then how about the dificulty is changed by having aditional objectives - tuff ones like 'dont let X die' and 'kill the enemy before the time is up'. Enemy casters on epic should be real killers, enemy meles should hit way harder - intead we have a virtual auto attack fest and the only reason instakills are so desireable is because its more efficient. Change THAT fact, not the ability to instakill.

To give my honest opinion: epic is ****. Most people I know playing epic are doing it for the tokens to TR, not for fun. The whole thing needs a thourough rework most notably the ability to set a varying range of dificulty from 'lvl 20 mode' to super super hard your never going to do this mode.

[cdemeritt]

Blanket things are bad. Instead of giving everyone the same "ward" ...

I still want to see epic mobs adjusted somewhat; like raise their highest save by another 3 or so. Make their strengths and weaknesses variable, but still bypassable. Give SOME of them actual deathblock, others actual FOM. Maybe base this on monster type and/or the quest(s) involved. Give a great many of them resists, some even elemental protection or absorption.

Not all of them the same accross the board - variety.

That should keep the single-tactic boring stuff minimized.

And make them randomly applied... when the mob spawns it rolls a d10 (or whatever) 1= FoM, 2=dispellable DW 3= Deathblock 4=resist/prot fire 5=resist/prot cold, etc. etc. so you never know just what is coming...

long felt this would be good at all levels/difficulties...

[nolaureltree000]

No thank you. Epics were awful before insta kills were allowed in. They limited the epic viability of some paths and made it a walk 20 feet, mass hold, repeat snore-fest. I don't see any reason why trash mobs shouldn't be able to be insta killed.

Even so its not terribly easy to insta kill on a caster. On my second life necro spec wiz that is fairly geared I needed to SLA enervention then energy drain to be able to reliably finger mobs. Without giving neg levels to mobs its pretty hit or miss for instakills.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

You said you that you have an epic geared barb OP, I wonder if you tried playing him (her?) to his (hers?) fullest potential.

Use you stunning blow. A stunned trash mob goes down before the arcane gets to them.
Use intimidate. Gather the mobs around you for a nice prep for DBF or CL or Otiluks or whatever.
Use supreme cleave. After the arcane softened them for you, this will probably finish them off.

Of course this could go both ways, and you might be softening them for the arcane, but so what? You will still definitely be contributing.

[KillEveryone]

I'm glad my caster can do more than just be a mass hold monkey.

I'm also glad that when I get my assassin rogue to epics, her PrEs third tier is going to be useful.

If we are going to "balance" epics, do we again add in those blanket immunities to where you lock out a classes Tier III Pre? Is it really fair to those players?

If we are going to "balace" epics by adding a higher save, do we add it to all spells....Epics were and are very easy with mass hold....or is it going to just be the death spells because the melee's feel left out that they can't kill anything before the caster and want the caster to mass hold for them.

If we are going to "balace" epics, they should also add much higher saves toward stunning blow since that is a reliable option for a melee type. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

If they are going to "balance" epics by adding a higher save, you then run the problem of locking out non-TRed caster types. Epics should be doable with a very well geared first lifer. So, we up the saves so that a first lifer can't land that mass hold as reliably or bypass the spell pen as reliably and the DDO population calls that player a noob and blacklists them telling them they have to go through several TRs just to be effective. This is also not fair to a portion of the population and if it is going to be required that a caster have several past lives, the caster players at that quest level will dwindle to where it is like waiting for a healer type to join a raid.

Instead of asking for nerf this on casters, the melee types need to ask for buffs and more effectiveness.

[Rodasch]

This community would whine and complain about being given a million dollars, tax-free. You'd complain that you wanted it in a different denomination of bills, or that it didn't all fit in your wallet, or that one of the bills was facing a different direction.

Seriously. Are you now unable to play a melee character whatsoever because they cannot do any damage? Does casters being able to instant kill monsters in epics keep you from swinging your swords at stuff? Or is it just that it's so much harder to beat on monsters in epics that aren't perma-held for you so you can do auto-crit with your heavy picks for outrageous damage and now you realize your prized melee builds really weren't all that uber in epics without a caster making you faster and granting you autocrits, and now that you've all built around that play style you don't know how to play when arcanes are actually competing for kills.

Instant kill spells don't just let us zone in and push one button to slay the zone. We have to target and cast, or gather and wail. Every instant death spell has a cool down timer.

Why don't you try sending the arcanes off to kill stuff one place and you go kill some stuff they're not gathering to wail or not insta-killing (1 every 30 seconds or so). You act like you are forced to run along in the shadow of the casters and beg for scraps. You're choosing to play in their shadow most times and bemoaning your choice as the game's fault.

Alter your play style to accomodate the changes, You're still perfectly able (if not moreso!) to kill stuff with your weapons in epics, but you'll kill more stuff if you aren't trying to kill the same monsters the casters are already killing or prepping to kill. Instakill is the new crowd control. Instead of mass hold, it's wail. Kill the stuff that's not being crowd controlled, and if you bite off more than you can chew, run your pack of monsters to a caster and let them wail your extras for you.

Adapt.

[~STERLIN1]

What you seek is not a challenge. It is the spotlight. A challenge is easily obtained by not buffing, removing various pieces of gear, making toons that are not optimised cookie cutter builds, etc. If it is challenge you seek you can create it at any turn and you can do it without impeding anyone elses enjoyment. As I said however "challenge" is not what you seek.

[Solmage]

Ok, let's remove insta kill. But then let's add immunity to holds, and DR 40/- to all trash. That should be fun, and it will make the quest feel EPIC!

Kidding aside..

There are many quests with plenty of orange names (echrono, f.ex) or super-high SR (most drow), and AI is already rather smart: if you don't kill an epic cleric within a second of seeing him, he deathwards himself and all his friends.

I'm not against tweaking some specific quests, but overall blanket changes?


Sorry, not signed.