Please Nerf Water Savant

[kafrielveddicus]

We still review game mechanic changes and such, and have more of an allowing ruleset, but the original question I had was....

Has there been a precident where a PD guild in DDO made a rule against enhancements or class based abilities? If not I think we are heading into new territory.

The reason I ask this is because there are several instances where we claimed certain things were OP up til now, but just kind of laid back and allowed it.

Examples?

Firewall. A wizard with 2 levels of rogue can solo the entire necro 2 chain more efficiently than an entire melee group with a healer can run it. They still can.

Better loot that can be statically acquired. I would argue that the korthos anger set + goggles is as powerful as sorcs SLA at low level. It allows toons to turn power attack on with barely a penalty - adding 10 points of damage to a two hander which is already doing mid 20s a swing = mid 30s per swing = 100 point crits at level 5. Its not as much overkill as the level 6 ice SLA, but one shotting kobolds is one shotting kobolds, and a melee can do it for free.

Archmage. 1 mana point for hypno. The only mob moving is the one being killed. Pull whatever you want fellas, I got the rest locked down. A level 6 wizard with 575 mana can buff and then cast hypno ~350-400 times, heh. I still use this in gianthold, and it still works.

Half orcs. ~10 damage potential per hit above most other melee, with no apparent penalty built in. Huge str totals.

Divine punishment. Just wait til you guys get a load of this one. Boss fights are now trivialized. Everyone else pike at the door while the FvS stacks DP on the mob and ducks out of harms way. Rinse, repeat. This ones a bit higher level, but if you havent seen it in action yet, when you do, youll see that it makes that 2 point ice SLA look weak. FvS have soloed devil assault on epic with it and blade barriers - no mana pots used.

Blade barrier. Now casts like a normal spell. Mob AI being what it is will run around and take damage from it until it dies. Ive run up a red alert in the vale then used one blade barrier to kill every spider and dog on my tail, heh.

I think a very legit question presents itself. Where do we draw the line on character ability restriction once it starts? Do we end up with a huge book of abilities that cannot be used, due to the fact that the game gets made easier for lower level gaming every update? How far does this rabbithole go?

I see the comments made alot that Turbine is making the lower level game easier and easier, and I dont disagree, however, each time an update comes out with some new ability or heck, theres a new class coming out soon, and its deemed too powerful, do we just put it off limits?

There has been no precedent that i know of, and i am sure PD Halls of Valhalla wont ban them, if we were going to ban anything it would have been firewall and blade barrier at our conception, as you can bet any of the accomplishments of permadeath guilds included a heavy dose of these. But as you have said there is certainly the factor of fun that needs to be involved. its just when i hear one of our communities guild leader requesting a nerf of something due to being way over-powered and unbalanced, it truly is my recommendation that he/she considers adding it to the ruleset, I believe there is already one guild that has banned eternal wands -> not because of over-powered but because of unlimited resources from these items, I on the other hand wouldnt have the patience to use an eternal wand thru a whole quest and cant even recall ever using the number of charges an eternal wand would have during an entire quest.

[Raithe]

Incorrect.

No I'm afraid you are the one who is incorrect. DDO is a niche game. It always has been, despite their attempts to make it seem mainstream. Every person who plays MMOs I've talked to in person knows what LOTRO is. When I mention DDO, they scratch their heads, every time.

As a business decision it makes a HUGE difference. Giving players cool stuff to play with then taking it away is not good for business. Bringing other things in line with those abilities is better, as it gives classes which dont shine as much some much needed attention, and makes players who play them feel they arent getting left behind.

Yes, it's bad for business to make colossal errors in game design. Once they are made, however, your particular choice for "fixing" them is also bad for business. You wind up spending 90% of your development cycle adjusting game mechanics and redesigning content instead of designing lots and lots of new content with new player interaction attributes.

I think that even the developers still working on DDO would recognize what I'm talking about.

Asking the designers to limit everyone else because your view doesnt agree with theirs is not only wrong, but its also a bad business decision.

And asking the developers to redesign content and update the other 9 classes just because you think its a better business decision does not make it so. You are wrong. Ask the developers if they think business was better before update 9 or after. Remember, they actually know the answer.

[Chai]

No I'm afraid you are the one who is incorrect. DDO is a niche game. It always has been, despite their attempts to make it seem mainstream. Every person who plays MMOs I've talked to in person knows what LOTRO is. When I mention DDO, they scratch their heads, every time.

Im talking about every MMO - not just this one. The same rules of business apply.

Sorry dude, but I am correct here. Nerfing is bad for business. Giving people cool powers to play with and then taking them away is bad for business. Players simply are not willing to invest time into developing toons to have them nerfed back to not being fun anymore. Sorcs and Wizards do not want to become buff/haste/hold bots again at the high end like they used to be.

How many games do you know of that went under due to making players too powerful? I know quite a few which shut down or are shutting down shortly due to nerfing classes into oblivion every time changes needed to be made. SWG is a perfect example of this.

The historical evidence of MMOs shows what I am saying to be correct. People dont have fun by building for something they like to play and then having it nerfed into oblivion. WHen their class is no longer fun to play they feel that their time invested was all for nothing. They have MORE fun when the other classes get their love and become as powerful as their own preferred class, so they start getting played more as well. I actually have more fun playing my melee toons nowdays with casters in the group, who are played by satisfied players who understand their only major contribution is not merely measurable in Mass hold DC.

Nerfing is a bad business decision, compared with bringing other classes in line.

And asking the developers to redesign content and update the other 9 classes just because you think its a better business decision does not make it so. You are wrong. Ask the developers if they think business was better before update 9 or after. Remember, they actually know the answer.

People arent quitting because sorcs are better nukers than they used to be. I bet more people quit after U5 than U9.

[Illiain]

just trolling around .

On topic: At end game, I just spam cone of cold and Otiluke's Freezing Sphere plus ice storm, works great in Shavarath...... with my wiz. Grab a bunch of mobs till yellow~red alert and AoE, then grab the next bunch.

Ok, just making sure. I don't want people running around with misinformation claiming FvS are overpowered now.

On the other hand, I wish they got it as a SLA for 2sp.

[danotmano1998]

People dont have fun by building for something they like to play and then having it nerfed into oblivion. WHen their class is no longer fun to play they feel that their time invested was all for nothing. They have MORE fun when the other classes get their love and become as powerful as their own preferred class, so they start getting played more as well.

Truer words have rarely been written.

[Ninety0ne]

Sorcerers are still so far below wizards this thread is unintentionally satirical. Niac's sla vs boom headshot FoD there's really no comparison. Also at low levels why take a single target sla (water) when you can take fire savant and move to water when the fire immune guys start showing up.

[parvo]

Yeah, but this would likely cross a line with many people. Are there any other examples we have to date where builds / classes / enhancements were disallowed? People who already built a successful sorc would not take that lightly.

I say play in tougher content at level 6+ This particular SLA is only really powerful at lower level.

I....a.g... hmm. I a..g.r.... I agree with Chai. Yes we can limit specific abilities, but I've never liked the idea. In MV, we don't have that many savants yet. The ones we have are powerful, but they are not blowing through level 15+ stuff on hard and elite.

For Mod nine, MV made simpler rules modifications. 1/2 rest shrines and more restricted trading. These have evened the field a bit.

BTW, Mo, just to show me wrong, turb did not nerf lightning bolt damage from kobolds. I predicted otherwise, but elite harbor with level two and three characters (even four) is more risky.

[Elaril]

Ok, just making sure. I don't want people running around with misinformation claiming FvS are overpowered now.

On the other hand, I wish they got it as a SLA for 2sp.

FVS ascencency costs 0 sp. So you could make the case that they already have something better.

[Duncani_Daho]

There has been no precedent that i know of, and i am sure PD Halls of Valhalla wont ban them, if we were going to ban anything it would have been firewall and blade barrier at our conception, as you can bet any of the accomplishments of permadeath guilds included a heavy dose of these. But as you have said there is certainly the factor of fun that needs to be involved. its just when i hear one of our communities guild leader requesting a nerf of something due to being way over-powered and unbalanced, it truly is my recommendation that he/she considers adding it to the ruleset, I believe there is already one guild that has banned eternal wands -> not because of over-powered but because of unlimited resources from these items, I on the other hand wouldnt have the patience to use an eternal wand thru a whole quest and cant even recall ever using the number of charges an eternal wand would have during an entire quest.

The Core banned a few abilities that are inherent to some races and classes. For example, we have had rules for over two years that enhancement-based raise dead is not allowed: high elves can't use their raise dead at any level, and the same goes for paladins and monks-- those classes are never allowed to use their enhancement abilities to raise dead.

The other abilities Chai mentions were on a wait-and-see basis. Firewall was never overpowered for us because spam casting of it meant the caster would soon be out of spell points. Radiant Servants definitely DID ease the spell point drought for us to a degree, but Archmages haven't been too ridiculous. Hypno got nerfed (and who complained about that???) and so it seemed that Wizards could still cast spells and be somewhat mindful of resource management in long quests (definitely couldn't keep maximize or empower on for long though!). However, Archmages obviously don't have it as rough as Mojejido did when he first arrived in The Core over two years ago: a level 14, 28-point elf wizard with aspirations toward arcane archer before he got wise. He dropped the feats for AA around level 9 and never looked back. He's never seen his stone but in the low to mid levels he ran out of spell points again and again and again, even when he was conserving mana by using only 1st level spells like ray of enfeeblement and firing his bow.

So Archmages were a good thing, but not overpowering. But Savants will put non-Savants on the sidelines in the level 7-13 quests. Maybe we could have a guild rule saying they were forbidden to take their prestige until level 12? I'm not sure.

[Duncani_Daho]

By the way, no one should be against nerfing IN PRINCIPLE. Things get introduced into the game and sometimes those things get nerfed. It is done for the good of the game-- more enjoyment for the greatest number of people. I'm not talking about permadeath, but just players in general.

Take this hypothetical. Have you heard the Dev's are bringing in Druids at long last? Well, at level 6, Druids in DDO will get this spell called ROOT STRANGLE. It costs 1 spell point if the character has the prestige, requiring feats: Toughness and Mental Toughness. And ROOT STRANGLE is an area of effect, no save, that permanently paralyzes all mobs in that area.

There is great buzz on Lamannia. Players say it's killer, Druids are awesome sauce, and they just can't wait. The Update goes live and the player base of DDO never sees a mob move again. It even works on bosses.

Ridiculous right? Well, that's as ridiculous to me as sorc savants are now in the game. But those who are against nerf in principle would have nothing to say. Such hypothetical Druids would suck the fun right out of the game.

Admit it, sometimes things SHOULD be nerfed.

[Master_of_None]

I would admit it, but I'm still in such shock over Parvo and Chai agreeing on something that I can't think of anything el--wait, what?

[Aaxeyu]

Roll one, or invite one to your group.

Asking for nerfs is stupid and pointless in a group- and goal-oriented game.

Please stop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFuMpYTyRjw

[Aaxeyu]

Directly nerfing players is practically the same as buffing mobs to "make the game harder". People who cares will recogonice that they have been nerfed.
For example, what's the difference between making all monsters take 0 damage from all spells, or reducing the damage players deal with all spells to 0?
There is no difference.

A real example would be back in around mod 5 when they made certain monsters in orchard immune to fire, that was considered a nerf to casters.

Admit it, sometimes things SHOULD be nerfed.

This. It's just silly to think otherwise. But I suppose some kids don't want their favourite toys taken away.

[parvo]

Im talking about every MMO - not just this one. The same rules of business apply.

Sorry dude, but I am correct here. Nerfing is bad for business. Giving people cool powers to play with and then taking them away is bad for business. Players simply are not willing to invest time into developing toons to have them nerfed back to not being fun anymore. Sorcs and Wizards do not want to become buff/haste/hold bots again at the high end like they used to be.

How many games do you know of that went under due to making players too powerful? I know quite a few which shut down or are shutting down shortly due to nerfing classes into oblivion every time changes needed to be made. SWG is a perfect example of this.

The historical evidence of MMOs shows what I am saying to be correct. People dont have fun by building for something they like to play and then having it nerfed into oblivion. WHen their class is no longer fun to play they feel that their time invested was all for nothing. They have MORE fun when the other classes get their love and become as powerful as their own preferred class, so they start getting played more as well. I actually have more fun playing my melee toons nowdays with casters in the group, who are played by satisfied players who understand their only major contribution is not merely measurable in Mass hold DC.

Nerfing is a bad business decision, compared with bringing other classes in line.



People arent quitting because sorcs are better nukers than they used to be. I bet more people quit after U5 than U9.

Turbine's nerfs have been very well done. While removing some functionality, the abilities remain.

[Beethoven]

I am actually not even sure and doubt its a general game unbalance, but rather emphasized by (most) PD rules. Sorcerer SLAs (and particularly Water Savant) are quite powerful. However, (outside of PD) there is also no shortage of melee builds running around and one shotting everything in early content.

My experience is gear makes a huge difference for melee toons already early in the game. Sorcerer/Wizards don't really have as much in the low levels nor do they need it. Their power comes mostly from build and playstyle. You need to keep in mind what's available to melee outside of PD. Take your usual Barb. Gear him up with gear from Chronoscope, wield a Carnifex or Hellstroke Greataxe and then throw a trinket from Crystal Cove on top. They are going to run around (and frequently do) one-shotting everything.

So, in other words: a water-savant has access to a save-or-die attack for everything in low (and well into mid-levels) with the only other limitation being that he only gets something like 300 of those. The melee build has unlimited no-save instakills with the only limitation being it is a "touch attack".

It's why I truly feel the imbalance is really only that significant in PD where most guilds have rules against handing gear down from existing to new toon and often also against repeatedly grinding one and the same quest until they got all the gear they need/want from there. The way the game currently is, it hurts melee builds far more than casters and thus casters become even more powerful (by comparison) in PD than in general.

End-game things change. Water Savants commonly have the highest boss dps but are frequently in beat in overall dps by air savants. Earth Savants also got stuff going for them and finally Wizards (Palemaster and Archmages) will beat them in effectiveness against trash mobs. What has fallen behind some are melee's, but I find the better solution would be to show them some love in future updates again.

[Chai]

Turbine's nerfs have been very well done. While removing some functionality, the abilities remain.

I disagree.

They gimped an entire combat style until the later levels. Rangers and rogues do more damage with a two hander until ~level 11+ which fails. They took the other combat style whose strength was moving while fighting and made it so you have to stand still to get ~75% of your base damage in glances. They nerfed ranger splashes people had built for years on. The nerfs pigeonholed classes who used to have alot more going for them. The abilities did NOT remain.

I will agree Turbine has not failed on the level of SWG, but they have nerfed quite a few things over the years which made players have to scrap toons and rebuild, which is never a good business decision. Players felt the previous two years of building that toon was for nada.

And no, the abilities dont remain, in anything other than name only. Some of them were changed to the point where its not even the same thing. but hey, you can buy feat swaps and LRs in the store....

[Chai]

Directly nerfing players is practically the same as buffing mobs to "make the game harder". People who cares will recogonice that they have been nerfed.
For example, what's the difference between making all monsters take 0 damage from all spells, or reducing the damage players deal with all spells to 0?
There is no difference.

There is a HUGE difference.

You have no further to look than the impact the nerfs had on the "monster" build you posted videos of back in the day. Its no where near the same level of effectiveness it used to be. But hey, they took mob HP down a bit so its no big deal that some people took a number of years to build and gear one, only to find it is now much less effective in reletion to other builds right?

I dont feel the majority of players agree with your literal assessment in regards to the impact nerfs have on the time they spent building for something only to have it be made much less effective. The quantification doesnt come in points of damage it can deal however, but in hours of time spent building an effective toon, only to have it be less effective after an update. Players then feel that time was spent for nothing.

Sorcs do not wish to become what they used to be all over again, haste, buff, and CC bots, simply because the rest of us cant handle the fact that they can dish out appropriate amounts of damage compared to the content they play in at level. People enjoy playing sorcs again in high end content. This is what happens when the devs find a disparity in a class and bring that class up to everyone elses level, rather than nerfing, which is bringing other classes down to the level of the class with the disparity.

So yes, there is a difference, but not using the method you are using to quantify that difference - damage. The quantification of the difference is the number of player hours spent building something they enjoy playing continuing to be effective, rather than nerfing it into uselessness, and making those players feel like they wasted all that time just to have their build redefined for them, in such a way that is not fun for them any more.

[Aaxeyu]

There is a HUGE difference.

You have no further to look than the impact the nerfs had on the "monster" build you posted videos of back in the day. Its no where near the same level of effectiveness it used to be. But hey, they took mob HP down a bit so its no big deal that some people took a number of years to build and gear one, only to find it is now much less effective in reletion to other builds right?

I dont feel the majority of players agree with your literal assessment in regards to the impact nerfs have on the time they spent building for something only to have it be made much less effective. The quantification doesnt come in points of damage it can deal however, but in hours of time spent building an effective toon, only to have it be less effective after an update. Players then feel that time was spent for nothing.

What I'm saying is that there's no difference whether people have their toons made less effective by a direct nerf or a change to the "enviorment" that indirectly nerf their toon. They will feel like they have "spent time for nothing" either way.

[Chai]

What I'm saying is that there's no difference whether people have their toons made less effective by a direct nerf or a change to the "enviorment" that indirectly nerf their toon. They will feel like they have "spent time for nothing" either way.

Naaaaa. Nerfing doesnt have the same impact as adjusting the environment on player morale.

A good example of this is epics 1.0 - where the trash mobs were made immune to everything but three tactics or so. My 2 year old builds at that point were still functioning as I built them, it was just the mobs couldnt be attacked with most of the tactics I built for. I felt epics were ********, but my build still functioned as it used to. All the work I put in is still relevant, just not in certain quests on certain difficulties. D&D heads are used to this as the game is situational after all.

Hold that up to the example of the U5 combat nerf, where rangers went from a decent DPS class to a mediocre DPS class who people currently play because they like utility. Not only does tempest 3 not net what it used to, but 6 level melee ranger splashes just got smoked, and ended up having an attack rate less than a just-off-the-boat toon previous to the nerf. Level 1 without twf feat used to attack more often then a level 20 with all three of those feats does now.

The players found the awesome combinations, built for them, geared for them, and got it all taken away. Not the same as making adjustments to the environment to disallow certain things.

Not to mention, water savants are not the perching crit fishing firewallers of old. They actually have to work for it and play effectively, which cant merely be quantified with DPS numbers and stated to be too powerful.

[Duncani_Daho]

I could be wrong, but I anticipate that player morale will be hurt most by a game that is becoming too easy. Divine Punishment, maximized and empored melf's acid arrow, you name it-- completing quests as a means to an end (LOOT!) will never satisfy for long.

I never said it before, but I'm really seeing a need for a special server. It should have some sort of severe death penalty (not sure what that is yet), make earning any and all xp difficult (though not impossible), kinda like the equivilent of running harbor elites with level 2's-- its definitely possible to git er done, but you gotta play smart. Only problem is, I can't think of a hardcore server that would have any place for the savants.