Exotic Weapons Improvments

[Requiro]

<snip>

Please, Do some math about Scimitar/Rapier vs Longsword. Because there is almost the same advantage like Khopesh vs Scimitars. If you want to be consequent, you should try convince us that Scimitars are also overpowered...

Meh... I will do math for you...

Scimitar/Rapier (S/R) vs Longsword (Long)
Weapons: LitII + 6 seeker.

+dmg	S/R	Long	Diff	+ %
0	37,9	36,3	1,6	4
10	50,4	47,8	2,6	5
20	62,9	59,3	3,6	6
30	75,4	70,8	4,6	6
40	87,9	82,3	5,6	7
50	100,4	93,8	6,6	7
60	112,9	105,3	7,6	7
70	125,4	116,8	8,6	7
80	137,9	128,3	9,6	7
90	150,4	129,8	10,6	8
100	162,9	151,3	11,6	8

There really is nothing wrong with kopesh.

<snip>

Men... I really advice you read my proposal first

(Or you are guy that use Khopesh without feat... hmm... )

The problem is with the whole weapon line up as a whole.
<snip>

Do you have any proposal how "fix" it?

<snip>And being totally gimped at fighting 100% fort isn't a good thing either, even if they're a relatively small part of the end-game.

<snip>

What about undeads?

[dkyle]

No. because 100% of the time your change obsoletes longswords.
If you have no exotic proficiecy it has the same stats as a longsword. if you have the proficency then it is better.

So you should always carry/use khopesh over a longsword from 1st level. And that's bad.

I am assuming that the -4 penalty for non-proficiency would still exist. So the Longsword would still be better.

The change to Khopesh is about making non-proficiency a non-option for gaining its' feat-like benefits, without spending the feat.

What about undeads?

Undead are a "relatively small" part of the endgame.

We've got Epic Wiz-king, the Abbott (where DPS is an afterthought), and SOS, and that's about it. A few giant skeles in the sub and a few other minor enemies.

A few 100% constructs, like the EVoN3 Marut, or Crateos.

Compare to all the Devils we have (Shroud, VoD, ToD, EChrono, EDA), and 0% fort enemies (Lailat, Velah, etc.)

[Requiro]

<snip>

Undead are a "relatively small" part of the endgame.

<snip>

Yes I know I'm just saying that there is a lot more 100% fortification mobs in game overall, not only in end game.

[dkyle]

Yes I know I'm just saying that there is a lot more 100% fortification mobs in game overall, not only in end game.

I specified end-game originally.

I don't really care that much about weapon balance outside of end-game.

[KillEveryone]

Yes I know I'm just saying that there is a lot more 100% fortification mobs in game overall, not only in end game.

Power of a weapon is seen much more at endgame.

Since there are not many 100% fort critters at end game, why bother still. You are going to balance for all the content but people will still skip anything that reduces fort because it isn't necessary.

Basically, why take a weapon that has a benefit that may see 5% of the players playing life? After cap, what do you really do then? You can TR and re-run the grind or you can grind out gear from quests which have critters that doesn't have enough fort to bother. Just power through with your DPS weapon and you are golden.

Going to run lowbee content with your capped character? No one is going to worry about having to deal with fort.

BS may be a good leveling weapon but, at cap people will still take the weapon that puts out the most DPS that they can fit into the build.

There are only a few good weapons in the game. As I stated the whole line up is borked. I don't have a way to fix it...yet....but to actually make the whole line up of exotics worth taking, you need to fix the whole line up.

If you buff exotics too much, why use a martial weapon then? Scimitar would get bonuses if you are elf but beyond that, unless you can't fit it in your build then why bother with martial?

There is no problem with kopesh. People percieve a problem because it is a good weapon but it isn't the weapon. It is the weapon line as a whole. There are only a few good weapon types worth using and part of the problem is the game mechanics. Fix the whole system and you will be able to balance exotics.

[Requiro]

<snip>As I stated the whole line up is borked. I don't have a way to fix it...yet....<snip>

So what are you talking about? Try find solution and then we can talk. I don't see any broken part in weapons right now. Really! There is always one weapon better then other in different situations. But this is not place to talk about it. Create your own thread, where you can put your filling about "broken parts".

If you buff exotics too much, why use a martial weapon then? Scimitar would get bonuses if you are elf but beyond that, unless you can't fit it in your build then why bother with martial?

I don't buff them too much (see post no 2). Khopesh should be for Max STR build. Daxe for Dwarfs and Average STR build, and Bsword only for 100% fortification mobs.

And why using Martial Weapons? Easy: for free feat. In this game there is no difference if you use Scimitar or Khopesh. You will still complete any quest. The only difference is in time. Some people like to be maximum DPS zergers and do quest in 20 min. Others like fun and role and do quest in 30 min.

I post my proposal only for improvements to game itself. More option in game = more fun overall.

[KillEveryone]

So what are you talking about? Try find solution and then we can talk. I don't see any broken part in weapons right now. Really! There is always one weapon better then other in different situations. But this is not place to talk about it. Create your own thread, where you can put your filling about "broken parts".



I don't buff them too much (see post no 2). Khopesh should be for Max STR build. Daxe for Dwarfs and Average STR build, and Bsword only for 100% fortification mobs.

And why using Martial Weapons? Easy: for free feat. In this game there is no difference if you use Scimitar or Khopesh. You will still complete any quest. The only difference is in time. Some people like to be maximum DPS zergers and do quest in 20 min. Others like fun and role and do quest in 30 min.

I post my proposal only for improvements to game itself. More option in game = more fun overall.

You still are not offering any more options. Since kopesh will still be king DPS and there are no real heavy fort critters...some have fort but it doesn't really matter enought to worry...why go through coding to change things?

People will still go for kopesh unless dwarf or drow/elf then they want dwarf or elf/drow enhancements.

You are only looking at a small part of the problem. You haven't really looked at the whole issue of weapons in general compared to what is actually in the higher levels where most of the capped characters are going to be spending their time.

Martial weapons again. If you are dwarf, you'll get the Daxe, elf will have the scimitar enhancements, drow gets the rapier enhancements. So we have other races then. Assuming we are all going to be TWF, if you have the extra feats to spend, you'll still take kopesh. If not, we are still looking at scimatars and rapiers.

Beyond flavor, who is going to actually take bastard sword for fort reduction when it isn't going to do any good for a character running around in high level content? It will be good for some leveling but not much beyond that.

Ranged with the crossbows? Some rogues builds would use them but anything else isn't going to spend a feat for that unless they are a fighter and they will still carry a regular bow or returner for whatever levers need to be shot because they won't be using ranged.

Shirken? Again ranged.

Ranged combat isn't going to be helped by either of these buffs.

Kamas. Monks would be buffed here but this will again not be worth taking.

If someone still wants max DPS, they will still be taking Kopesh because the game is DPS. This is why the whole weapon line up is broken. Beyond flavor builds, people will still gravitate toward the best DPS they can get so we will have all this work that doesn't get used.

[Riablo]

If someone still wants max DPS, they will still be taking Kopesh because the game is DPS. This is why the whole weapon line up is broken. Beyond flavor builds, people will still gravitate toward the best DPS they can get so we will have all this work that doesn't get used.

This is essentially correct however it overlooks a key factor. The purpose of this suggestion is to increase the usefulness of non khopesh exotics. At the moment, the Bastard Sword and Dwarven Axe only see use in specific circumstances outside of flavour builds. The use of other exotics is encouraged in the suggestion via making khopeshes inaccessible to builds that cannot take the feat and increasing the performance of other exotics in 50-100% fort scenarios.

At the end of the day, min-maxers will still flock to the highest DPS weapon (even if it was 1 extra damage point) however if players could select other exotics without shooting themselves in the foot too much (via increasing the tactical usefulness of other exotics), the suggestion would have served its purpose. No one is saying the proposal is would 100% solve everything, it wouldn’t. It would however make things a lot better and this suggestion itself is probably the best khopesh/bastard sword fix I’ve read in the 2 years I’ve been browsing these forums.

[Requiro]

You still are not offering any more options <snip>

For ranged: I change only Shuriken. Rest are the same (Great Crossbow will get this ability in U11)

For Kamas: Monks get ability to have nice, centered GS weapon (better then long or shortsword, almost same as Scimitar). And it is light weapon. It can't do the same damage like rest of Exotics.

Daxe: Now if you want be DPS Dwarf you take Khopesh anyway. Because of math: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=50 With my changes Daxe will be a little better then Khopesh in some situation with free feat (for Dwarf). On the rest... well... Khopesh will be still better.

Bsword: Ability to do almost the same damage like Khopesh when mobs have 50% fortification, and much more when 100%, AND Glacial Blows made them very useful weapon. That sword will be king against any Undead mobs. (Glacial are not blocked by Fortification). On the other hand against non fortification mobs will be week.

That is nice option for me. If you don’t like weapons like we have in DDO, I think that you don’t like DnD at all. That system in almost perfect copy from DnD.

[KillEveryone]

That is nice option for me. If you don’t like weapons like we have in DDO, I think that you don’t like DnD at all. That system in almost perfect copy from DnD.

Really?

I've been playing DnD since 70s.

Almost perfect copy. LOL.

[Requiro]

<snip>I'm still going to /not sign.

You haven't shown any buffing of exotics is going to improve the game.

Yes I do (post 104). But you want change the whole weapon system (but don't know how), that's why you don't see any improvements.

You haven't proven that any of those buffs will be useful beyond any niche build.

You want change the whole game. I try do it by little steps. For now: Khopesh for everyone. With my changes: Dwarf with Daxe, (not gimp) S&B Bastard Sword, Monk Kamas, rest Khopesh. Other weapons should be adjusted by unique loot, and Enhancements.

Any of the ranged stuff really isn't going to help that whole ranged problem.

Improvements to ranged combat is completely different story. I wrote about it somewhere else. What I do here is improvement to shuriken itself. For Drows and Monks this weapon will be much better then any other throwing weapon.

The game really needs to move beyond DPS to make what few weapons we have more balanced.

Wohoo... Great idea. If you have any suggestion I'm going to listen. If not... Meh....

First of all, I like the idea of "If you haven't taken the Feat, you don't get the benefits." better then just the -4 pen.

Thanks. IMHO without proficiency feat you should have much more penalty, like -10 to hit, no critical at all, +50% chance to damage weapon.

<snip> This would open up the S&B fighting style give more love to BSwords and DAxes with their glancing blows that the Khopesh does not have.

In my proposal Daxe don't have Glancing Blows any more.

[KillEveryone]

Yes I do (post 104). But you want change the whole weapon system (but don't know how), that's why you don't see any improvements.

There are no improvements because you haven't improved them. Who is actually going to take any other weapon beyond kopesh if they can fit it in? This is how it is currently and even with your changes, it will still be the same. There are no improvements.

You want change the whole game. I try do it by little steps. For now: Khopesh for everyone. With my changes: Dwarf with Daxe, (not gimp) S&B Bastard Sword, Monk Kamas, rest Khopesh. Other weapons should be adjusted by unique loot, and Enhancements.

I want to see all the weapons become more useful. Currently, it is exotics such as kopesh or dwarven axe if they can be fit in the build. With your changes it will still be the same. There are some good daggers in the game that are unique loot but people don't use them because that weapon isn't a very good weapon so adjusting other weapons by unique loot isn't going to help them.

Improvements to ranged combat is completely different story. I wrote about it somewhere else. What I do here is improvement to shuriken itself. For Drows and Monks this weapon will be much better then any other throwing weapon.

Ranged just needs an overhaul. The changes to shruiken may help with drow and monk but do you actually believe they will be using ranged in combat?

Wohoo... Great idea. If you have any suggestion I'm going to listen. If not... Meh....

Meh to your meh. Your changes are not going to help either.

Thanks. IMHO without proficiency feat you should have much more penalty, like -10 to hit, no critical at all, +50% chance to damage weapon.

I can get behind having the feat do something beyond helping to hit but the whole system actually needs to be fixed, not just exotics.

Sky Blue.

[Cyr]

If the bastard sword fort reduction was a true reduction of -20% fort so that a normally 50% fort mob was 30% fort instead then I think I can get behind the bastard sword change part of this proposal.

I would have to do the full math, but I am fairly certain it would be superior for all/most 50% fort cases over a khopesh in a full rogue build over khopesh. That would provide an interesting additional niche for the bastard sword that would not compete with the existing S&B niche and compliment the choice in their builds also.

Breaking it down this would mean that khopesh would be the superior dps no if and or buts against 0% fort mobs, but would drop off in it's superiority as mob fort increased and build dependance on mob fort increased where bastard sword would take over.

Edit: And tying the crit multiplier bonus of a khopesh to the exotic feat sounds like a solution waiting for a problem. I just do not see all these builds running around with no prof. in khopesh using them. As it would add an extra check in code and fringe chance of nerfing someone's fringe build that clearly is not OP as it's not a common build at all I can't say that I can agree with changing that. Really I see no need to change khopesh and the approach of addressing the junk status of other exotics by buffing them is the proper tact to take.

[Scraap]

Given that
a- one of the major arguments against the worth of S&B vs twf is damage mitigation over damage output loss not equating to enough to justify the extra time spent
and
b- the biggest weakness in glancing is DR heavily impacting the proc without specific breakers per mob-type. After all, the very fact that you *get* a second set of numbers in and of it's self bypasses fort, to a degree, in those situations.

Perhaps one of the glancing enabled weapons could be given up to, say... 5 DR bypass?


As far as what it takes to improve the system as a whole, well... Right now, we've one accepted strategy for dealing with any given fight. Pile on and pour on raw DPS while the divine spams heals. IMO, exotics at a minimum should serve to amp up alternate strategies to the point where various approaches are valid.