What does TANK mean to you? Get real people!

[Nigo]

Is it just me or someone else also noticed that people posting their custom tank builds always talk about their turtle-AC and how well their build is supported with DPS to keep agro but never talk about how squishy , therefore useless, their so-called tank builds are.

I havent seen anyone with a really decent HP at lvl20 cap till now. They all end up in 600-700 hp range, which in my opinion is just trash HP for a tank to have. It is alot more funny when they add up "possible madstone triggerred CON bonus" to their buffed-up HP , yet forget about its +1 stacking dodge bonus to AC!

They all end up in 90ish AC yet they dont even consider litany trinket + pure good weapon will end in negative level for the toon as you either have to take a neutral toon with high UMD to use good aligned stuff or have a negative level.

They dont take into account that alchemical dodge bonus to shield and armor wont stack. They use every possible buff (yugoloth potions) still hardly hit 700 hp barrier.

A tank having 700ish HP at lvl20, entering Epic quests/raids would die after a spell/trip. With all that +3 exceptional bonuses and tomes and stuff , your toon still sux on HP. I see lots of ppl dying on hard Shroud runs cause they lack the hp to withstand spells/blades. Mostly paladins and monks (IMO monks are just plain joke). Does it matter what numbers you have on your Saves if you die in a single blow? No. Does it matter if you have Evasion Feat from 2 levels of monk or rogue if your aim is to have high AC with a mithral fullplate? No, as feat wont work above Light armor. Get real!

My definiton for a tank would be: A tank should be able to soak up lots of damage thanks to his/her huge HP bar, have decent AC (around 90), have a high DR (U9 made great improvements on that matter) and be able to generate enough DPS to keep agro.

As this part of the forum is reserved for custom builds, i want to hear about your opinion on my tank's build.(how well my build sux,etc,etc. i dont get offended by it if its an intellectual response)

My dwarven stalwart defender has;
Starting stats (32 pts build)

Strength 14
Dexterity 14
Constitution 20
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 8
Charisma 6

Used +1 INT tome at lvl4, +2 DEX tome at lvl7. Now grinding for +3 CON tome.

My little dwarf is now at lvl18. As a tank has to rely on gears, i made a list of my desired items for cap level. Requires alot of grinding. Just mentioned their more vital effects.

Goggles: 45 HP greensteel goggles (earth/earth/earth) with earthgrab. (already have it)
Boots: 6 exceptional CHA skills greensteel boots (air/air/air) with haste guard. (already have it, have to wait for 20th completion)
Belt: Epic Belt of Mroranon (Yellow Slot for Fear Immunity). (+7 STR, Toughness, Heavy Fort.)
Helm: Epic Chimera's Crown (Colorless Slot for +1 Exceptional DEX, Yellow Slot for Blindness Immunity, +5 Natural Armor Bonus, 25 SR)
Ring: Chattering Ring (must find it...) (+3 Dodge)
Ring: Epic Ring of the Buccaneer (i have tier-2, so no slots on it) (+7 DEX, +5 Protection, +2 Good Luck)
Necklace: Epic Hyena Claw Necklace (Yellow Slot for +6 CHA, Intimidate +11, Toughness, +7 CON)
Cloak: Epic Cloak of Night (have it)(Deathblock, +2 Dodge, Ghostly)
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw (Intimidate +5 (Stacks), Healing Amplification 30%)
Bracers: Epic Bracers of the Claw (Exceptional Constitution +2, Heavy Fortification)
Weapon: Aspect of Radiance II greensteel dwarven axe (+1 exceptional CON, +2 exceptional DEX, 10% fire absorption).
Armor: Cavalary Plate (i have tier-3, +1 alchemical dodge bonus, Slot for +2 Max DEX bonus, Superior False Life).
Shield: Levik's Defender (must find it...)(15 DR, 9 AC)
Trinket: Greater Nimble Trinket (have it)(+1 Dodge, Blurry)

So, i have +10 CON, +10 DEX, +7 STR, +6 CHA, +6 Dodge Bonus, +5 Natural Armor Bonus, +5 Protection, Toughness, Heavy Fortification, Deathblock, Good Luck +2, Intimidate +11, Intimidate +5 (stacks), +6 Exceptional CHA skills, Blurry, Ghostly, 10% Fire Absorption, 45 Stacking HP from greensteel item, Blindness/Fear Immunities.

With these equipments at level 20, my tank will have these modified stats:

Strength 14 + 7(item) + 1(tome) = 22
Dexterity 14 + 10(item) + 2(tome) = 26
Constitution 20 + 5(levels) + 3(tome, hopefully) + 10(item) = 38
Intelligence 12 + 1(tome) = 13
Wisdom 8
Charisma 6 + 6(item) = 12
As a result of:
Strength 22 (+6 Modifier)
Dexterity 26 (+8 Modifier)
Constitution 38 (+14 Modifier)
Intelligence 13 (+1 Modifier)
Wisdom 8 (-1 Modifier)
Charisma 12 (+1 Modifier)

Dwarven CON I and II adds 2 more CON. Stalwart III stance adds 4 more STR and CON.
HP
d10 + 14 (CON) per level. At level 20 = 480.
480 Base
20 Feat: Heroic Durability
10 Feat: Draconic Vitality
45 Greensteel
40 Superior False Life
20 Toughness (item)
80 Toughness Enhancements
154 Toughness Feats x7
20 Dwarven CON I and II
40 Stalwart Defender Superior Stance
=
860 HP just with the stance on.
20 Airship Buff for +2 CON
= 880
40 Yugoloth Potion
30 Demonic Shield
= 950
Plus, you can get Greater Heroism ,Aid etc to hit over 1000 HP.

AC
10 Base
16 Armor
9 Shield
6 Dodge
1 Misc. (Alchemical Dodge)
5 Natural
5 Deflection (protection)
5 Paladin's Aura (yes i can feed of them)
8 DEX bonus
4 Stalwart Stance
3 Stalwart III Prestige Class
= 72
5 Blocking
= 77
5 Action Boost
= 82
1 Haste
= 83
4 Airship Buffs ( 2 DEX buff = 1 more AC and you get 3 more AC from House Buffs)
= 87
(you name other buffs if i let any out)

[LeLoric]

Curious as to how you think you would hold aggro with a 22 str?

[Phidius]

...
My definiton for a tank would be: A tank should be able to soak up lots of damage thanks to his/her huge HP bar, have decent AC (around 90), have a high DR (U9 made great improvements on that matter) and be able to generate enough DPS to keep agro.
...

Pretty complicated. Here's my definition.

1. Grab agro (I don't care how)
2. Hold agro (keep in mind dying loses agro)

If you can do this with 15 HP and 10 AC, you're a tank.

...
Constitution 20 + 5(levels) + 3(tome, hopefully) + 10(item) = 38
...

Couldn't bring myself to read through the mountains of epic gear, but this caught my eye.

Wow, that last 80 HP sure is expensive. 10 build points and all 5 level ups...

Are you sure you'll be able to hold agro? I'm not keeping up with all the changes...

[stoopid_cowboy]

Turtle tanks are dead dood...

[Kourier]

Hell, are you going to be able to hit things?

[HallowedOne]

I see where your questioning comes from - I've seen so many "tanks" trying to play god against Horoth that I question the mentality of the vast majority of the players of this game.

But, you have to understand, a tank here needs to hold aggro against heavy DPS. You have to hold aggro agaisnt Barbs wielding eSoS and Claw sets, you have to hold aggro against rogues doing 200+ dmg each time they ypass Fortification, you have to hold aggro against Fighters wielding eSoS and eClaw set using Haste Boosts. Not to mention the stupidly high DPS a caster today can now generate.

And, sadly, your build won't hold it. You have put so much effort in survivability that you ignored that other important aspect of tanking. You have to deal enough damage on your main hand to make your aggro amplifiers generate more aggro than the DPS of the party.

But you are right, ignore the "omglolwatanub" posts. It's sometimes hard to people to read your intentions when they are also fed up with giving advice and beeing scorned at.

[LazyTigerLily]

Curious as to how you think you would hold aggro with a 22 str?

He wouldn't, he'd have to constantly be hitting the intimidate button, to take the agro back from the rogue who is out dpsing him

[Seamonkeysix]

The issue I have with your definition of "tank" is that you are taking away 1/6 or 1/12 of the overall DPS from your group or raid group. While you may be able to hold agro with intimidate, you won't be able to contribute to actually killing things from the DPS standpoint.

In thinking of the current end-game bosses, I don't see this build being all that useful. The AC isn't going to help you. Sure, 900 HP is going to be less of a drain on the healers, but the loss in DPS will add to the drain because of the extra time it will take to kill stuff.

Your makes me wonder if this is an ironic post and you understand that 900 HP and a "possible" AC in the 80s really isn't all that helpful to the party. In truth, I'd rather have a tank with 650 HP that hits like a mac-truck, has decent DR and incites the poo outta mobs way before one with 900 HP that doesn't hit them.

[HallowedOne]

The issue I have with your definition of "tank" is that you are taking away 1/6 or 1/12 of the overall DPS from your group or raid group. While you may be able to hold agro with intimidate, you won't be able to contribute to actually killing things from the DPS standpoint.

He doesn't need to do more DPS than the party - he needs to generate more Hate than them.

In thinking of the current end-game bosses, I don't see this build being all that useful. The AC isn't going to help you. Sure, 900 HP is going to be less of a drain on the healers, but the loss in DPS will add to the drain because of the extra time it will take to kill stuff.

That's true. The only one situation where an AC tank is useful is on Horoth, which is a shame and creates many mediocre conceptions.

Hopefully he'll think about making a more versatile build that will work for the rest of the content besides that only one, one that he would also eventually fail.

Your makes me wonder if this is an ironic post and you understand that 900 HP and a "possible" AC in the 80s really isn't all that helpful to the party. In truth, I'd rather have a tank with 650 HP that hits like a mac-truck, has decent DR and incites the poo outta mobs way before one with 900 HP that doesn't hit them.

Actually, you got me bugged now...

[Balkas]

What feats are you taking?

They dont take into account that alchemical dodge bonus to shield and armor wont stack.

I'm fairly certain they do stack.

Identical magnitude dodge bonuses from treasure do not stack in DDO. (With the exception of the Eldritch Ritual Shield/Armor improvements, when we renamed those to "Dodge". We'll rename those yet again to be clearer that those stack with everything but themselves.)

This is an intentional deviation from the basic D&D rules.

[Kourier]

What feats are you taking?



I'm fairly certain they do stack.

OH SNAP

Umm, his list says 7 toughnesses and it's at least 18 fighter (Probably 20). So that means he has 11 combat related feats left... That's actually not so bad O.o

Gotta bring up the accuracy question again though. What is your to-hit for epic quests?

Also, did you invest in healing amp?

[Kaeldur]

Arrogance not appreciated...

Go quest for real and come back, then let us know where you went wrong. I've seen more than enough great tanks with 600~700 hp. It's not all as simple as you want to make it be, player skills will always beat character stats.

About your build: Your DPS is gonna be horrible and you'll have a hard time hitting things. Unless your HP is gonna scare the boss to death... Sometimes you should stop and get a reality check, there are people who know more about the game than you, there's a reason certain builds are made the way they are. You are obviously entitled to create whatever build you wish and play it, I won't hold that against anyone, but to say that they're dumb and "not real tanks" is a whole different story.

[Angelus_dead]

A tank having 700ish HP at lvl20, entering Epic quests/raids would die after a spell/trip.

Newsflash: If 700 hp isn't enough then 950 hp usually won't save you either.

[Morlen]

Newsflash: If 700 hp isn't enough then 950 hp usually won't save you either.

Come now, it allows epic trash to sneeze on you one more time!

[uthanak69]

I quit reading at the part that said something about entering Epic quests. People need to stop using Epics has a way of judging the game and players. Not everyone even wants to play Epics.

[Angelus_dead]

People need to stop using Epics has a way of judging the game and players.

That is particularly true if the example character is only level 18 so far...

[HallowedOne]

I quit reading at the part that said something about entering Epic quests. People need to stop using Epics has a way of judging the game and players. Not everyone even wants to play Epics.

Why did he post Epic gear layout then?

[FrozenNova]

Ten of your AC only takes effect when
a) you're not generating any agro
b) you're not out of your 200 seconds of AC boost
Combined with the requirement of a full ac aura paladin (good luck finding one with less capacity to tank than you).

You might as well be a barbarian.
Fighting unarmed.
And even he'd have more DR..

[Cardtrick]

I'm fairly certain they do stack.

I actually think the OP is right. I read that post by Eladrin to mean that even though the alchemical bonus is called a dodge bonus, it stacks with a regular dodge bonus. But two alchemical bonuses (one on armor, one on shield) don't stack with each other. If they do, it would be the only example I know of in DDO of identically named effects stacking.

[Angelus_dead]

I actually think the OP is right. I read that post by Eladrin to mean that even though the alchemical bonus is called a dodge bonus, it stacks with a regular dodge bonus. But two alchemical bonuses (one on armor, one on shield) don't stack with each other. If they do, it would be the only example I know of in DDO of identically named effects stacking.

1. The OP is not right.
2. That is not a valid way to read the quote.
3. An alchemical bonus on armor and shield do stack with each other.
4. An alchemical bonus on armor and shield are not identically named effects.