What does TANK mean to you? Get real people!

[LordPiglet]

Curious as to how you think you would hold aggro with a 22 str?

I was wondering the same thing. Sounds like another person I can't power surge or boost with on my kensai while they're tanking. Or someone I won't run my fvs with on tod because they drag down dps and cost me resources

[MrWizard]

I imagine this is not a real thread, more like a joke thread. If it is not, my apologies.

OP is wrong, in my opinion, in just about everything he spent time typing.

I would not consider your thoughts or build a 'tank' for purposes of my party.


sorry, just my opinion

of course i think this is just a well played humor thread..in that case, you got almost everyone!

(yes, almost all wrong...alchemical bonuses on armor and shield do stack..)

[Astraghal]

My 1st life Dwarf Kensai III has 705 unbuffed HP and with a few easily sustainable buffs sits on 795 HP, often spiking up to 875 for minutes at a time, which is good enough for most tanking situations.

705 unbuffed
040 essence of desire
020 rage
020 ship buff
-----
785 sustainable self-buffed HP

040 madstone clicky (lasts about 4mins?)
-----
825 sustainable for ~4 minutes

After popping a Fireshield clicky and Titan's Grip, that's how I'll start off tanking Horoth, then when I've well and truly got aggro, I'll do a quick gear swap and add 10 more HP to the total.

010 greater stalwart trinket
-----
835 HP

After the Madstone effect wears off and I'm down to 795 sustainable HP, I'll start popping my Fireshield and Stoneskin clickies in between beating on Horoth. Once I get more pairs of Madstone Boots, I can use a Pale Lavender Ioun Stone to re-Madstone myself.

While 785-835 HP might not be ideal for Elite Horoth, I find it's good for almost every other tanking situation, especially in combination with Demonic Shield, Firestorm Greaves and a Cloak of Ice.

I didn't specifically build my Fighter as a tank, but I can reach those HP without compromising DPS and I maintain that any melee should be able to tank pretty much anything with some gear swapping.

Edit 1: I also have DR 5/Chaotic, 171% healing amplification and 20% extra threat, with a DT robe of 10% + 15% Incite + Disintegration Guard to stack on top of that and can usually hold aggro against all but the most geared and/or TR'd DPS apes.

[Phidius]

... For those having 650-700 hp, i suggest doing shroud on hard (i dont think you would dare elite anyway) and go ahead and tank him on part 3 and see the results yourself.

"A" for effort, "F" for comprehension. You might want to get a little more experience before "calling out" some of these folks.

When did people start "tanking" in the Shroud, anyway? I haven't been running it very much as I'm spending too much time in the Epic hamster wheel...

[Nigo]

Out of my fury for all those hate-tankers on other posts, i realized that i forgot to point out some serious matters with my build.
Starting stats (32 pts build)

Strength 14
Dexterity 14
Constitution 20
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 8
Charisma 6

Ending stats (Used 1 INT tome, 2 STR tome (which i havent atm), 2 DEX tome, 3 CON tome (i havent yet)

Hit points: 860 unbuffed, 880 with airship buff.
AC: 77 unbuffed-blocking, 78 if alchemical dodge bonuses stack from armor and shield.
Strength 30 +2 ship buff
Dexterity 26 +2 ship buff
Constitution 44 +2 ship buff
Intelligence 13 +2 ship buff
Wisdom 8 +2 ship buff
Charisma 12 +2 ship buff
---------------------------------------
This goes for the 2-level-monk-lovers for tank builds: i can dodge 2x (legend) monks without facing them with my shield as i can tank them both with my arse!

[LordPiglet]

The issue I have with your definition of "tank" is that you are taking away 1/6 or 1/12 of the overall DPS from your group or raid group. While you may be able to hold agro with intimidate, you won't be able to contribute to actually killing things from the DPS standpoint.

In thinking of the current end-game bosses, I don't see this build being all that useful. The AC isn't going to help you. Sure, 900 HP is going to be less of a drain on the healers, but the loss in DPS will add to the drain because of the extra time it will take to kill stuff.

Your makes me wonder if this is an ironic post and you understand that 900 HP and a "possible" AC in the 80s really isn't all that helpful to the party. In truth, I'd rather have a tank with 650 HP that hits like a mac-truck, has decent DR and incites the poo outta mobs way before one with 900 HP that doesn't hit them.

Or a 650 hp tank with massive heal amp over a 900 hp tank with none

Sorry my kensai runs 599 hp with permanent blur and (up to 719 depending on buffs). I can also run over 200% amp and 50 strength.

What does the op think most would prefer?

[Nigo]

I imagine this is not a real thread, more like a joke thread. If it is not, my apologies.

OP is wrong, in my opinion, in just about everything he spent time typing.

I would not consider your thoughts or build a 'tank' for purposes of my party.


sorry, just my opinion

of course i think this is just a well played humor thread..in that case, you got almost everyone!

(yes, almost all wrong...alchemical bonuses on armor and shield do stack..)

Well, tell me the difference between the maxed out STR : 48 and my fighter's STR: 32 in your own words then. I'm being wrong about what? a new update that just changed how alchemical dodge bonus stacks with another?

Almost all wrong? Explain where i was wrong.

[Zirun]

It doesn't matter how durable you are if the boss isn't targeting you.

And even if the boss is targeting you, having excess durability at the cost of damage and hate generation could very easily lead to a tougher time killing him because other players may have to limit their damage output so they don't take aggro.

Tanking is all about a balance between defense (so you don't die) and offense (so everybody else doesn't die). Judging by the other builds, posts, etc. other people have made, it seems you've gone a bit overboard with the defense at the cost of too much offense.

Just because a few peoples' tanks suck royally doesn't mean they all do. Some people don't know how to play or when to put the bow down (metaphorically speaking, heh). I'm sure you can also find some arcane casters that can tank raid bosses. Doesn't mean they all can, will, or won't explode if they try, but there are exceptions to every rule.

Except the rule that there are invariably some people that are ******** and don't know that 500hp is a liiiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit low for a tank.

[Braegan]

nvm

[LordPiglet]

"A" for effort, "F" for comprehension. You might want to get a little more experience before "calling out" some of these folks.

When did people start "tanking" in the Shroud, anyway? I haven't been running it very much as I'm spending too much time in the Epic hamster wheel...

I ran shroud on hard at 17, out dpsing all the melee's. We did just over a round in part 4, frankly it was so easy I didn't even realize we were on hard.

Besides , shroud is easy. I've solo'd a base on evon 6.

[Nigo]

My 1st life Dwarf Kensai III has 705 unbuffed HP and with a few easily sustainable buffs sits on 795 HP, often spiking up to 875 for minutes at a time, which is good enough for most tanking situations.

705 unbuffed
040 essence of desire
020 rage
020 ship buff
-----
785 sustainable self-buffed HP

040 madstone clicky (lasts about 4mins?)
-----
825 sustainable for ~4 minutes

After popping a Fireshield clicky and Titan's Grip, that's how I'll start off tanking Horoth, then when I've well and truly got aggro, I'll do a quick gear swap and add 10 more HP to the total.

010 greater stalwart trinket
-----
835 HP

After the Madstone effect wears off and I'm down to 795 sustainable HP, I'll start popping my Fireshield and Stoneskin clickies in between beating on Horoth. Once I get more pairs of Madstone Boots, I can use a Pale Lavender Ioun stone to re-Madstone myself.

While 785-835 HP might not be ideal for Elite Horoth, I find it's good for almost every other tanking situation, especially in combination with Demonic Shield, Firestorm Greaves and a Cloak of Ice.

I didn't specifically build my Fighter as a tank, but I can reach those HP without compromising DPS and I maintain that any melee should be able to tank pretty much anything with some gear swapping.

I appreciate your post. I agree that a DPS melee should be able to endure some damage and be not so squishy. But people think that its the same about Tank builds aswell. Tanks dont have to hit as high as a kensai or barbarian and must endure more than 4 times damage that any other melee can.(using his AC,DR and shield's damage absorption)

[Nigo]

It doesn't matter how durable you are if the boss isn't targeting you.

And even if the boss is targeting you, having excess durability at the cost of damage and hate generation could very easily lead to a tougher time killing him because other players may have to limit their damage output so they don't take aggro.

Tanking is all about a balance between defense (so you don't die) and offense (so everybody else doesn't die). Judging by the other builds, posts, etc. other people have made, it seems you've gone a bit overboard with the defense at the cost of too much offense.

Just because a few peoples' tanks suck royally doesn't mean they all do. Some people don't know how to play or when to put the bow down (metaphorically speaking, heh). I'm sure you can also find some arcane casters that can tank raid bosses. Doesn't mean they all can, will, or won't explode if they try, but there are exceptions to every rule.

Except the rule that there are invariably some people that are ******** and don't know that 500hp is a liiiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit low for a tank.

Thank you for the kind post, mate. Well if you read my post above yours, you can clearly see that a maxed out STR of a stalwart defender is 16 STR more than mine, which is +8 damage and +8 attack and nothing more than that. So please dont say that i cant do much DPS with this toon than a person using a capped !half-orc stalwart defender! :P If ppl be logical about it and do the math, they'll see that my build is not that much of a meatbag.

[DrunkenBuddha]

I guess what people are saying if you can't maintain aggro, who cares if your hitpoints are 5 gagillion and you have 200 AC - what's the point? To be the last one standing in the raid before the wipe?

To me a tank is someone who has the boss's undivided attention. I don't care how they got it, hate, seamonkeys or whatever, but they gotta get it and keep it. If they lose it, they gotta get it back immediately.

Why? Because it prevents chaos. Chaos leads to wipes. Wipes lead to forum vents. And we don't need any more of that.

So I'm not seeing how your build keeps/maintains aggro. How do you keep the boss's attention? Sure it'll take a couple more swipes for him to take you down, but how are you preventing the boss from focusing his attention on others. And if you aren't then your DPS is subpar. So again - what's the point?

[Deathlos]

Thx for trying.. but, this is a big boy world. High Dps Matters, the Extra hate on the stalwart defenders line is broken.
So no, you cant just Intimi though everything.

you say you can attack though, yet at the same time you add your Blocking AC, make up your mind. i dont inculde blocking ac on my monk, since guess what, i dont block.

And, My tank monk, has 484 hp unbuffed. Has tanked VoD, Elite, Hound Elite, Epic chrono, ToD Suul Elite, ToD Horoth normal*i didnt plan it! pug tank sucked!* And done shroud elite about 5 times, without dieing.. except where you have to ya know? not to mention numerous epics. i Rarely die. and when i do, im usally one of the last to go down. Because, Skill > build. and guess what. I have a single epic item... epic chrono gloves.. doesnt add to my AC, but hey It helps me keep Hate agisnt the ESoS weilding barbs.

Just becuase you have had some bad experiances with bad tanks, doesnt mean that you have to have max in all Stats tanking abilities*well except dr, which you said a tank needs high of, yet have a low one when not blocking, yet you attack though all!* to tank well, i mean, a common occurrence is putting any old 500hp WF that has decent Dps to tank Suul No matter the difficulty! and guess what, it works. So, i say your tank fails since it is built on the premises that the user has no skill at all.

And tanking two monks with your arse... i can kill 5 of the useal dps monks in pvp, since guess what, monks are natural low to hit chars, anyone with a High AC can do it, Now try getting those monks fully raid buff and tanking with your arse... Not so easy is it? Psst. ToD x2 per monk, with the save, thats still 500x2 = you fully raid buff and temp hp dead

[Missing_Minds]

This is a tank.

[noinfo]

Oh man, I didn't read over it quite clearly enough and silly me, assumed you had a dr breaking weapon! What will you do for tower elite with over 30 damage off every swing?

Actually inablility to break DR only becomes an issue on actually hitting.

[Seamonkeysix]

Or a 650 hp tank with massive heal amp over a 900 hp tank with none

Sorry my kensai runs 599 hp with permanent blur and (up to 719 depending on buffs). I can also run over 200% amp and 50 strength.

What does the op think most would prefer?

Yep. Kinda what I was getting at. I run a 20 FvS as my primary end-game toon. I heal epics a lot. I would much rather heal a tank that keeps agro off the rest of the party, has decent healing amp, and actually gets the fight over with quickly.

I honestly don't even ask the main tank in most raids about HP or AC. If my blue bar ran out before the boss was dead, I might wonder what went wrong. If it didn't, you were a successful tank.

[sephiroth1084]

For one thing, there are epic monsters with AC over 65 (what's the current 'high'? 75 or so?), so in epics, which you brought up, increasing your to-hit is very important.

As for the difference in Str...how are you getting from your 22 (26 in stance) to 32? The issue here is that if you want to be tanking, you need to have aggro. Intimidate helps. Stance threat improvements help. Gear helps. Ultimately, though, all of that is working on your base, and if you aren't doing much damage you won't have aggro. That, or you'll force the rest of your group to gimp themselves just to satisfy your ego. Sure, there is a middle ground, where a tank just can't compete for aggro with the highest person in the group, and that person has to back off a bit, whether by slowing down their attacks or by removing some equipment, but when 2 or 3 people start pulling aggro, you generally need to stop tanking.

As for HP...if you have a 90 AC you'll get hit infrequently enough in melee for just about any HP to be sufficient. That leaves spells; a good Reflex save and proper buffs will reduce the impact of stuff like Meteor Swarm and Delayed Blast Fireball to manageable levels. The only really super-dangerous spells/effects that tanks need concern themselves with are a rolled 1 vs. Disintegrate while tanking Horoth, and the fire breath and ice shards that the Abishai Devastator throws out. 640 is usually enough for all of those, with 700-750 being the really ideal range to survive. I tank Horoth on elite with around 640 HP and only seldom succumb to a failed Disintegrate save. Sure, I'd like another 50 HP or so to turn that 'seldom' into a 'never', but my tank is a paladin, and can't afford more HP.

Nowhere have I seen the need for 1,000 HP, or even 900. I've tanked Horoth on elite on my barbarian with essentially 0 AC with 720 HP. It's a lot more comfortable at 820, which is where he sits when buffed, but even with no AC and a **** poor Reflex save and just enough healing amp to see green numbers on a WF, it's doable with less than 800. When you add good AC and saves (and healing amp) to the mix the required HP goes down considerably.

And, Shroud on hard? Hound on hard? These are your "proofs?" Don't make me laugh. We were completing these raids on elite when the cap was 16, there were no prestige enhancements, no TRs, no alchemical armor and shield rituals, no Dragontouched armor... and tanky characters typically had 450-600 HP. Some barbarians and a few fighters were up in the 700+ range, and a very few were in the 800-900 range. Sure, the population on the whole has gone weak, but that doesn't mean that The Shroud on hard is suddenly a difficult place to be, a proving ground.

The fact is that even on a defensively-minded character, there is simply no reason to be putting 5 level-ups in Con, and almost no reason to start with a 20 Con, especially when you want Dex, Int and could benefit from some Cha.

[Seamonkeysix]

In combat, tanks actually kill stuff. A lot of stuff. They don't sit there and get shot at and hope everybody else kills the stuff shooting at them.

[Nigo]

I guess what people are saying if you can't maintain aggro, who cares if your hitpoints are 5 gagillion and you have 200 AC - what's the point? To be the last one standing in the raid before the wipe?

To me a tank is someone who has the boss's undivided attention. I don't care how they got it, hate, seamonkeys or whatever, but they gotta get it and keep it. If they lose it, they gotta get it back immediately.

Why? Because it prevents chaos. Chaos leads to wipes. Wipes lead to forum vents. And we don't need any more of that.

So I'm not seeing how your build keeps/maintains aggro. How do you keep the boss's attention? Sure it'll take a couple more swipes for him to take you down, but how are you preventing the boss from focusing his attention on others. And if you aren't then your DPS is subpar. So again - what's the point?

You are very very right about what you are saying. I have to keep aggro to make myself useful. Therefore i am asking to you all about "how my DPS wont be enough with 32 STR?" and "how would you make your toon to be more effective as a DPS to hold the aggro?"

I mean, if half-orc stalwart defender is not a viable build and best defenders always come from dwarven race then what will be a dwarven stalwart defender's max STR and therefore max DPS? Can somebody do some math to prove that i dont pay attention to my DPS at all?!

A dwarf can have 18 base STR, so if your race will be dwarf:

Your max STR will be: 18 + 10(items) + 5(levels) + 3(ftr enchancement) + 2(ship) +4(stance) = 42.
My toon has 32 STR. Difference is 10 STR, which is +5 damage per swing and +5 attack bonus.
How does 5 damage per swing make my toon as useless as ppl replying this post mentioned?