Crafting Viability

[Alabore]

if it takes 100 paralyzers to make a paralyzer,
...
The ratios need to be adjusted.

I am not sure.
While you COULD disjoint holy to make holy, you would be much better off disjointing ardour, devotion, sustenance and so on.

The assumption you *need* to disjoint a paralyser to make a paralyser does not seem correct.
That is not how full crafting is supposed to work and tick under the hood.

You could craft a paralyser - you can't yet, if I'm reading the wiki right, btw... - without ever touching a paralyser.
You can craft holy without ever crunching a single holy weapon.
You can craft metalline by tearing true chaos, shattermantle and maiming down.

What matters is essence type, not the original item you stripped them from.

[LordDamax]

Pearl of power is my guess. Not really a named item as it drops as many different levels of power.

I dont understand why people still have it in their head that a POP is possibly not a named item just because it drops at varying levels.

Ever stop to think that maybe, just MAYBE, there are 10 DIFFERENT named items, called:
Pearl of Power I
Pearl of Power II
Pearl of Power III
Pearl of Power IV
Pearl of Power V
Pearl of Power VI
Pearl of Power VII
Pearl of Power VIII
Pearl of Power IX
Pearl of Power X

Just because it has an "of Power []" at the end doesnt mean it's the ONE AND ONLY random item in the game that's locked down to a set of 10 different suffixes.

There's 10 of them. Each is a named item.

Its not that hard.

[Malithar45]

Is a custom Holy Burst weapon worth 111k plat? Likely not. Even if I put that holy burst on a silver weapon, its still not likely worth 111k plat. Nevermind the cost and effort it takes to get to the level to be able to make a min level 8 weapon.

Depends. Would you pay 111k for a Holy Burst Silver Light Mace? I wouldn't, but maybe there's some mace spec build that could make use of it. How about a Holy Burst Silver Khopesh? Rapier? Great Axe? All of those go for much, MUCH more than 111k atm on Live. The benefits to this system are the customizable nature of it. You ever pull something awesome like a +4 Anarchic Burst Silver x of Pure Good? On par with Min II. But Min IIs, you can customize to whatever is useful to you. I pulled a short sword of the above nature awhile back. Sitting in my bank now though. Its an awesome weapon. However, short swords aren't anything amazingly useful.

Sure, it'll take many more mats to recreate that above weapon, or something much better, but thats the strength of the system. You work towards it. Is it going to be a long grind? Sure, we shouldn't have it any other way. There needs to be a grind IMO. If lvling is cake, if making things are cake, then what's the point of random gen items except to be broken down for this system? At least this way, many players may give up early in, or take their time to get to the desired level of crafting, giving the good random gen items a purpose, until the time comes that everyone has ground to the desired level.

At that point, what then? I'm sure we'll see new effects introduced at some point to keep the carrot infront of us. That doesn't mean we all need to zip there via lower mat requirements though. Its just like raiding, the one's ahead of the curve will be there waiting, while the one's behind either don't care or are to busy QQing on these very forums about how lvling it is so difficult.

And besides, you're comparing an items value in plat. Really? I'd dump max plat multiple times over if it meant getting my skills high enough to be able to craft any situationally useful weapon or item. Plat hasn't changed with this update, its still largely useless to the majority of the players (except for consumables and first timers.)

[LordDamax]

Depends. Would you pay 111k for a Holy Burst Silver Light Mace? I wouldn't, but maybe there's some mace spec build that could make use of it. How about a Holy Burst Silver Khopesh? Rapier? Great Axe? All of those go for much, MUCH more than 111k atm on Live. The benefits to this system are the customizable nature of it. You ever pull something awesome like a +4 Anarchic Burst Silver x of Pure Good? On par with Min II. But Min IIs, you can customize to whatever is useful to you. I pulled a short sword of the above nature awhile back. Sitting in my bank now though. Its an awesome weapon. However, short swords aren't anything amazingly useful.

Sure, it'll take many more mats to recreate that above weapon, or something much better, but thats the strength of the system. You work towards it. Is it going to be a long grind? Sure, we shouldn't have it any other way. There needs to be a grind IMO. If lvling is cake, if making things are cake, then what's the point of random gen items except to be broken down for this system? At least this way, many players may give up early in, or take their time to get to the desired level of crafting, giving the good random gen items a purpose, until the time comes that everyone has ground to the desired level.

At that point, what then? I'm sure we'll see new effects introduced at some point to keep the carrot infront of us. That doesn't mean we all need to zip there via lower mat requirements though. Its just like raiding, the one's ahead of the curve will be there waiting, while the one's behind either don't care or are to busy QQing on these very forums about how lvling it is so difficult.

And besides, you're comparing an items value in plat. Really? I'd dump max plat multiple times over if it meant getting my skills high enough to be able to craft any situationally useful weapon or item. Plat hasn't changed with this update, its still largely useless to the majority of the players (except for consumables and first timers.)

You can't go and take the exception, and use it to prove the rule. Yes, there will be SOME instances where it might be worth the expense, but that will be in the rare weapon type/material type combinations. But because that's the exception, you cant say it's balanced, because in those infrequent cases you'll be making those things.

[Book_O_Dragons]

The drop rate on small shards was more than doubled a couple of updates ago. Supreme Shards are now the bottleneck for players with a lot of trading power - Large Scales for everyone else.

Thanks never knew that. +1

I still think that the great and supreme shards should be craftable though.

EDIT: I need to spread the wealth even though I rarely plus anyone.

[vVAnjilaVv]

So far it seems like u can still get all the loot you will ever need by doing raids/epics and getting other stuff from quests in-game.

I really do not think this crafting system was meant to be a sub for items but rather a casual progression with the chance to accelerate it with store bought items.

I still am not seeing anything about this crafting that is an absolute requirement to be a successful player. I just see it as another option.......I mean if I can make some wicked item a year from now just by casually doing crafting.....it's still an option I didn't have before.

[wonkey]

I haven't read through the whole thread, and I haven't been to Lamaland for this, but from what I'm seeing, I think people have a different goal in mind for this crafting then the devs perhaps do.

My impression is that its not SUPPOSED to be a way to outfit your toon with a set of customized items. It's supposed to be a grind until you finally get to craft that item you've been looking for. It'll be quicker depending on what level item you have in mind.

For example, if you take every piece of vendor trash you turn up in a chest from levels 1-10, and you crunch 'em, as a new, 28-point build, with no other characters, can you get a single good level 10ish item out of it? (I play in a guild where we pretty much use what we find, so I'm thinking that's along the lines of a +2 keen adamantine greataxe of pure good, which would be a pretty sweet drop, probably better than anything my level 10 has.)

If so, that's a good system in my eyes. If you want more, grind away. The option is open.

If I'm way off on the random items you need to grind up for this, then I admit that I am wrong.

[Lyetisha]

Wonkey, while I appreciate your viewpoint, I have to say that it has indeed been stated what the purpose of crafting will be.

Fernando during the PAX interview said (in a nutshell) that we would be able to take an effect off of one weapon and put it on another. Period.

The debate currently raging is how we should best be able to accomplish that simple goal.

[wonkey]

Clearly, what Fernando said, if you take it at face value, doesn't square with the system we are seeing. So they changed it.

Which, to my mind, is a good thing.

The only way a 1:1 switch of a property to another item, even if you could only grab one property off equipment, would be way OP, and would destroy the loot system and have the devs scrambling to adjust the game to everyone being fully decked out in the best possible equipment within days.

The only way to avoid that would be to have a tremendous fail rate, which would just **** people off.

You CAN take effects off weapons and add them to others. It just takes a lot longer, and isn't so direct. Plus, we have the advantage of getting to crunch effects we don't want to get ones that we do.

Trying to describe the intent of what the devs have done, I think, you get very little from Fernando's single statement.

[dkyle]

Fernando during the PAX interview said (in a nutshell) that we would be able to take an effect off of one weapon and put it on another. Period.

He was summarizing. And possibly wrong. He's not a Dev, after all.

[goblean]

My thoughts:
I was extremely excited when I first heard it explained in the PAX interview. Now that I have seen it on Lammania I am disappointed and already bored of it.
The best way I can think to sum it up is "trapmaking". Lots of time grinding parts, for little return. Maybe, throw in some extra grind for the levels.
This is in no way a casual player type thing, as I have heard explained. This reminds me of Mabar in a way as well. The response to those that may want to craft something decent on their lowbie is "just hop on your level 20 and do it". The cove event was a breath of fresh air. I had just rolled up a new toon and could consistently find groups at the low levels. Everyone could participate at any level, I don't think this is the case in the current implementation of crafting.

Suggestions:
1. Bump up the size of bags to the next capacity. There are hundreds of added ingredients and collectables with no real addition to storage.
2. If the current implementation stays the same, allow deconstruction of named items. I don't see a reason why this can't be done under the current system.
3. Allow us to get materials from all parts of the deconstruction.
4. Implement the system where you can pull pure good off a weapon and put that onto another one, as described from PAX.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Fernando during the PAX interview said (in a nutshell) that we would be able to take an effect off of one weapon and put it on another. Period.

That's exactly what you can do now.......you can take a holy burst off of one weapon....and after many decons you can put that same effect back on a blank weapon.

I'm actually trying to remember exactly what Fernando said in that interview......Wonkey is right tho, we all pretty much had in mind the same thing when we saw that interview of how we thought and hoped crafting was going to work......and if it would have been implemented that way there would have had to been a large fail rate.

If what I quoted from you is exactly what Fernando said...then there was no lie, only a misinterpretation of how we hoped it was going to work.

Sometimes I am almost afraid to play this game because it's taking on more than a form of just fun and entertainment and seeming more like Wall Street.

Really this kind of adds in an element of LoTRO's crafting.....where your probably going to have to rely somewhat on people just cashing in on there essences while the few people who really wanna make something killer will be buying them all....I mean seriously....I still think some players are way to bent on what gear they have........some nice gear is awesome....every possible slot filled in with Epic/Raid gear is a conquest....no ones gonna feel pity for someone seeking that much power.....because they don't really need it anyways.

Sometimes I am almost afraid to play this game because it's taking on more than a form of just fun and entertainment and seeming more like Wall Street. This game is afterall....FREE....it's not an exclusive sub only game anymore....any RL money you put into this game is completely by your choice...well it was when it was sub only as well....but now you can play it without spending a penny.

[dkyle]

The best way I can think to sum it up is "trapmaking". Lots of time grinding parts, for little return. Maybe, throw in some extra grind for the levels.

Lots of grinding? Perhaps. But little return? There's some amazing gear possible from this. Far more potent than those traps.

Suggestions:
1. Bump up the size of bags to the next capacity. There are hundreds of added ingredients and collectables with no real addition to storage.

Yes. Requiring the new "Crafters" bag to meaningfully participate would be unfortunate.

4. Implement the system where you can pull pure good off a weapon and put that onto another one, as described from PAX.

You're leaving out the part of what it would cost. The cost could easily require just as much grind as this system does.

Taking Pure Good of one item, and putting it on another, with negligible additional cost would be absurdly over-powered. Especially if you can exceed the one prefix, one suffix rule.

[Malithar45]

You can't go and take the exception, and use it to prove the rule. Yes, there will be SOME instances where it might be worth the expense, but that will be in the rare weapon type/material type combinations. But because that's the exception, you cant say it's balanced, because in those infrequent cases you'll be making those things.

Not seeing the logic here. As you said, we're making these items, yet you're saying since we're making them (the top end ones) its not balanced because the rest is junk?

I did take the exception and set it as the rule, because in my mind, that's what it will be used for. Who's going to use this system to make more vendor junk in the long run? You're going to end up making the best random gen items you're capable of, whether you're stepping into Shroud for the first time ever armed with some +3 Holy Silver x's of L/EOB, you're a veteran with GS flowing out of your ears, going into eToD with +5 Holy Burst Silver x's of GL/EOB, etc. These are the exceptional items, the one's people will be gunning to make.

Consolidation and optimization of items is what will come of the system. Some gets a neck with a large guild slot on it, they're going to (if possible) craft +6 Cha and +15 Haggle to it so they're not losing any haggle when switching it out. Someone gets a belt with a large slot? +6 Con and GFL (again, if possible, don't know ML increases yet myself).

You're saying those things are the exceptions and that the system isn't balanced. So, what should it be balanced against? Seems balanced enough IMO. Its not a quick lvl up system, it'll be a grind, it'll take time. All the better, IMO.

[MrkGrismer]

It has been added to the general treasure table so it will begin appearing in game. It will also appear in some specific places (I think Three Barrel Cove and a few others that I can't recall). There is already one craftable trinket that appears in the game as it is.

The reason it was put in the store was for convenience. If the description says its a store-only item, that is an error.

Could you clarify that the 'it' you are referring to is the general 'blank' for crafting trinkets and NOT the shard of power? There seems to be some general confusion on this subject.

I assume the above means that the general blank trinket from the store is being added to the general loot tables in ADDITION to the shard of power being made craftable, and continuing to be only available where it currently is available.

[Solmage]

You still need collectibles. Turning the question on it's head, what do you expect to be for sale in the store?
Just content, cosmetics and the like?. Personally, I like the store making available materials which obviate grinding
content. All the crafting materials seem to be available from loot or from deconstructing items. All the store is
doing is providing a short cut to those whose time is worth more to them than the $ replacement. They do have
balance issues with this IMO but the fundamental principle is sound.

...and this is exactly what ruins the game for many, and what we were promised would never happen. Why not just add raid loot straight to the DDO store while we're at it. Why not also some XP packs: 100k exp for 500 pts while you're at it too.

[MadFloyd]

So far it seems like u can still get all the loot you will ever need by doing raids/epics and getting other stuff from quests in-game.

I really do not think this crafting system was meant to be a sub for items but rather a casual progression with the chance to accelerate it with store bought items.

I still am not seeing anything about this crafting that is an absolute requirement to be a successful player. I just see it as another option.......I mean if I can make some wicked item a year from now just by casually doing crafting.....it's still an option I didn't have before.

I think this is a fair statement.

[pjw]

...can make some wicked item a year from now just by casually doing crafting...

Well, let me know how many items you intend to deconstruct and at what level (very roughly) each week (casually) and I'll give you an estimate of how many weeks it will take to construct something wicked...

[Lyetisha]

The debate currently raging is how we should best be able to accomplish that simple goal.

Look between this post and my former post, in this thread, and you'll see that the above quote is true. =)

[ImFour20]

while there may be a few who go the TP route. it's not like thousands of people aren't asking for plat sinks in the game.

no you dont have to purchase TP, yes you can buy junk loot on the AH. this probably wont be a big deal for the bigger servers, but im thinking the AH on the smaller servers will be semi-bare for a while.