DDO Reboot

[NadgersFishtoaster]

I found that in every edition of D&D that I played there was supplemental material for level 21+. I found that the important characteristic of when a campaign ended was when the PC's wanted it to end, the DM wanted it to end, or the PC's died.

Out of curiousity what is the alternative you propose? From what I read it looks like the game should basically be over when you hit 20 in your mind...

In the campaigns I've been in there has always been the element of danger, no easily resurrections and a lot of focus on story and content. Campaigns lasted for years and in some cases spanned decades and counties but few reached characters reached what you've probably become used to calling "cap" - except due to AD&D racial limits and due to the OD&D level limit of 3, before it transformed into both AD&D and D&D.

Also at times how parties were wiped, causing a whole strand of the campaign to be forced to restart from level 1. Such is the way of classic D&D.

That extra material you mention was generally provided for more munchin players, who wanted even cooler and more powerful ways to be excessive. This is the realm of the DBZ fans and the level-or-two-an-evening-session people although I'm sure that these P&P players were playing the kind of gaming that they ultimately chose to play.

The soberest post 20th rules were, in my humble opinion, working on apotheosis as character seek to leave the mundane, mortal conflicts behind them. For otherwise what does a 20th level classic D&D player do other than try to act in a civilised manner and get used to his or her role as a major strategic asset in mature campaign.

To map this to DDO? With a 20th level character I'd seek to find meaningful things to do while trying to avoid the temptations and frustrations of a Skinner Box.

Note that in the above I mentioned the term content. In your proposal you wanted content, lots of it, but there was no mention of how it would be paid for. We afforded our content in our campaigns because our special effects budget was infinite, our money on figures well-spent and we wrote it ourselves. Each of the people who could DM, would DM, and we all sought to share the load.

If you want DDO to suggest such a massive increase in content I expect you to calculate out how Turbine can afford it all of this extra work and how much you are suggesting that they risk following your suggestions.

As for the rest I refer you to previous plea ...

People who want to play something blander, and simpler, can play WoW at the moment or be able to wait a short while for the D&D4 game to be released. I'm also led to believe that RuneScape has a very high level cap too.

However please don't try to ruin this corner of the Internet that has escaped this trend for blander, easier, endless games.

[EKKM]

I'm not a big fan of the epic levels in DnD and DDO. Rather than port existng characters I' rather see a new city in Eberron set as the Hub on a whole new campaign.

Ideally this time the power level of items could be lowered and the power of enhancements could be lowered. I think this would fix a lot of the balancing issues turbine is having in higher level content (80 STR, really?).

[wonkey]

I am thinking something along the lines of the following.

A) Initial Nexus point introduced (probably Sigil) This would be a whole new city that could and would be expanded over time. This would serve as a jumping off point to other settings as it's primary purpose at first.

B) Small Locations in the major worlds that the Nexus connects to. These are 'quest hubs' like stormreach is. FR should be someplace iconic like a ward in Waterdeep. Each quest hub starts as basically an adventure pack. "The Trouble in Undermountain" could be the first FR pack for example. This certainly would feel scarce at first.

C) Overtime each setting is focused on in detail with minor content expansions for the additional settings during this time. During these big passes you develop more of a game world that feels like it is full with content spread a little more through the level ranges.

Remember that DDO is basically a game of instances. The intial quest hubs should provide a strong sense of connection to the setting. Ravenloft should be very creepy. Sigil will look pretty interesting if done like the source books....

The idea here is not to try and have each setting as a 'starting' zone, but more of a destination until they have reached a critical mass to support that place as a 'starting' zone. The story line should lead you to the other planes/settings from Eberron or Sigil. All the existing planar hubs (Amarath/Vale) should be accessable from Sigil also tying them as much to Sigil as Eberron. Other outer/inner plane adventure could start in Sigil or FR if they have FR storylines for example (like a shadow plane set of adventures based upon the Harper's enemies there...).

Hopefully in this manner the lack of tons of content in a particular setting does not cause it to feel empty anymore then any other place you travel to in DDO currently.

Yeah, but think about it. Aside for the other issues I mentioned, think of what you have just said about the level of content.
Sure, its ok to have a few quests in the desert, a few in gianthold, etc. But would people REALLY be happy with, after essentially the development time of 5 packs (say a couple months each, so going on a year), you'd get 4 quests in Krynn, 4 quests in Eberron, 4 in the Forgotten Realms, 4 in Ravenloft, and 4 in Sigil (of course, this development time is just for the quests. Getting the mechanics, classes, races, etc. [and you'd have only 1/5 of the classes/races per realm] with balance would take a hell of a lot longer)? Every year, each world would get, say, 2 or so more quests, and a handful of other improvements because the devs have to spend more time on cross-realm issues.
Oh, and if you want to be able to start in any of these worlds, ALL these quests would be low level at first, with the levels creeping up slowly, as you want to put a bit in each realm.

Compare that to 20 new quests in this virgin territory of Xendrik, with intertwined stories, and more stuff like classes than you'd get in the other option, because sticking to Eberron is less complicated. And the same every year.

Which feels like an emptier game to you?

I know which one I'd pick

EDIT: rereading, I see you addressed the starting zone thing by saying it'll come later, and trying to alleviate the emptiness by interconnecting things. But I still think most of the points are valid. The complexity of trying to do each of the realms true-to-form would slow down content considerably for what I feel is not much gain.
Even interconnecting the realms, besides for the high likelihood of just getting messy, as the realms are, and should, remain distinct entities (too much interaction, and you may as well just stick to one setting again) will still leave each realm rather empty, with content added very slowly, as its divided among all settings.

[Cyr]

That extra material you mention was generally provided for more munchin players, who wanted even cooler and more powerful ways to be excessive. This is the realm of the DBZ fans and the level-or-two-an-evening-session people although I'm sure that these P&P players were playing the kind of gaming that they ultimately chose to play.

I do not find your derogatory statements about players who play differently then you choose to be particularly persuasive or logical.

Your milleage clearly varies, but I found that when playing long term campaigns with hundreds of campaign sessions it was fairly difficult not to have the PC's run into someone above level 20 or even have the PC's advance to that level. This didn't make us DBZ watching kids power leveling willy nilly. It just made us players who played a lot of pnp. You know just like those who have been sitting at the level 20 cap in DDO.

[Cyr]

Yeah, but think about it. Aside for the other issues I mentioned, think of what you have just said about the level of content.
Sure, its ok to have a few quests in the desert, a few in gianthold, etc. But would people REALLY be happy with, after essentially the development time of 5 packs (say a couple months each, so going on a year), you'd get 4 quests in Krynn, 4 quests in Eberron, 4 in the Forgotten Realms, 4 in Ravenloft, and 4 in Sigil (of course, this development time is just for the quests. Getting the mechanics, classes, races, etc. [and you'd have only 1/5 of the classes/races per realm] with balance would take a hell of a lot longer)? Every year, each world would get, say, 2 or so more quests, and a handful of other improvements because the devs have to spend more time on cross-realm issues.
Oh, and if you want to be able to start in any of these worlds, ALL these quests would be low level at first, with the levels creeping up slowly, as you want to put a bit in each realm.

Compare that to 20 new quests in this virgin territory of Xendrik, with intertwined stories, and more stuff like classes than you'd get in the other option, because sticking to Eberron is less complicated. And the same every year.

Which feels like an emptier game to you?

I know which one I'd pick

Yeah, I would certainly not have low level content to start in those areas.

It would actually be high level content there to start because that is what the game needs now.

I see zero reason why they would want to create all new races and classes for the new settings at first. Are there a whole lot of different fighter classes that are systematically different then those in eberron in FR, Ravenloft.... Are elves super different on the different worlds or is it really just a few tweaks that could be reflected in the enhancment system when they got to that point.

I also agree that it would seem emptier then a more densly packed new hub on Eberron, but that would leave the game in Eberron with it's lore that I can't even be bothered to read because it is not compelling enough. I'm sure Turbine picked Eberron because it was empty and they could make up their own stuff, but that didn't help them when because they didn't have a whole bunch of really talented people working on lore. It's not really their fault it's hard to compete with a bunch of best selling author's, but really if you have a rolls royce on one hand or some guys drawing of a car on the other hand which one are you going to pick?

Pound for pound I would go for a quest line based upon an established and well beloved settings elements everytime. Why have a d&d game when you are not using it's great lore and existing module elements? Turbine didn't make this mistake with LOTRO it's got tons of lore and that is by far the best part of the game.

[timetorun177]

No. I play THIS game because I love THIS game. I don't want to play a new game with the same name. I just want this one fixed.

[FoxCourier]

Having examined it... you don't want to update this game. You want them to create a game on the ghost of this one at it's barest concept, but what you really want is a new game entirely with completely new and different systems.

I'm not entirely sure I can agree that it's a valid suggestion for this game on that merit, though.

[wonkey]

Not really a major point, but, seeing as I now see that you envision this as an expansion to the game, keeping the game as it is with tweaking, and then adding more content to other settings rather than elsewhere on Xendrik, I should point out that giving access to other realms from Eberron is specifically against Eberron lore, from what I've read on these forums (I've only read one Ebberon book so far, myself).

Like Keith Baker, DDO seems to be trying to move away from established lore. That's why they put us on Xendrik, when they could have put us on Khorvaire. We're here, as pioneers, to establish our own lore. Some will love that, some won't.

Do I think they could put some work into this? Sure. That's related to the comment I made about perhaps adding some more persistent content, where feasible. And do some more interconnected plot lines, with powerful forces and agencies involved.

The lack of lore, I think, is not about lack of skill. It's not about pitting the Turbine team against past authors. It's because Eberron is young, and relatively unknown, especially the part we're on.
DDO is still growing strong. Hopefully, The Serpentine table will come to match the Harpers, etc.

The one thing that I think would satisfy some people, without going all the way to a new setting, would be expanding some quests onto Khorvaire, which is your more typical setting, with competing country-states, and plenty of intrigue.
DDO is currently restricted to a continent that is largely empty of major civilizations, and the frontier feeling is a bit different. I kinda like it, but I could definitely go for some more standard stuff too. I think they're perhaps moving a bit in that direction with the new Droamm packs, by putting in a competing country-state, as it were. Maybe we'll see some expansion along these lines.

[Aaxeyu]

The graphics are getting old too...
New/better ingame music would aslo be great.

[Brennie]

Having examined it... you don't want to update this game. You want them to create a game on the ghost of this one at it's barest concept, but what you really want is a new game entirely with completely new and different systems.

I'm not entirely sure I can agree that it's a valid suggestion for this game on that merit, though.

After reading your OP, i have to agree with the above sentiments. The OP read as "Keep everything, just change everything too". Your propositions are, ultimatly, asking for an entirely new game. I'd be similar to asking for my City of Heroes characters and game world to be transferred over to Champions Online.

However, as a "If someone could just wave a magic wand" wish, i almost completely agree with you. DDO is a fun game, and functional. It has its bugs, like all MMOs, and it has it high points and low points, again like all MMOs (But it tends to be more obvious in DDO, since content is broken up into quests which are easily pointed out as "Great" or "Horrible"), however, it does have some ultimately broken aspects (Armor Class in the level 10+ world for example) and in many places it feels like its held together by duct tape, super glue, and good intentions. The afore-mentioned AC is sort of patched together by allowing meaningful AC only if you make very specirfic character builds and grind out very specific (And arguably overpowered) gear.

If i ever get a Genie to grant me three wishes that can only relate to gaming (Cause Geek Geneis exist too, y'know) I might just read off the OP preceded by an "I wish...". Then I'll wish that games based off movies and movies based off games didn't automatically suck.

[Thuriaz]

I think everyone is up for some more content, and perhaps expanding.

Likewise epics need an overhaul, however I still hold to the basic stance that the SYSTEM(3.5) is not broken as much as the QUESTS are. Likewise I think with attack speed being what it is, movement speed being what it is, and casting speed being what it is a lot of 3.5 mechanics that worked on a "Round to round basis" fail. Casting speed is ridiculously slow. Attack speed is likewise obscenely fast. Movement speed is just silly. These things were not scaled from 3.5 so we are looking at rules imbalances. Correcting that is simple, re-balance attack speed vs cast speed either in favor of faster casting or in favor of slower attacking (I'd recommend the former over the latter).

Also, for what it's worth, once past level 20 a D&D character would focus more on fighting Gods, Demi Gods, and things of that nature. Your a powerhouse, we should be seeing epics revamped not with "Tougher monsters" but with NEW monsters, monsters that are Epicly Powerful for good reason, but that are SCALED to be comparable to level 20 DDO players.

The reason the monster manual breaks down past level 20 is simple, past level 20 in 3.5 there are very few CR20 monsters. You can apply some templates to monsters, or even apply character level increases up to 20 for them, to boost the CR in their favor.

Furthermore, Min/Maxers in 3.5 always have a weakness. The wizard with not but 80HP is a prime target in a fist fight without time to fire off his spells. Likewise the fighter who's AC is in the 90's in 3.5 is probably an easy target for a nice big juicy AOE spell that will wipe his HP faster than you can say "Wish Spell". The balance issues come in when DM's try to run a group that should be fighting gods against kobolds.

In DDO, the problem is that our Kobolds at level 20 turn into gods and we all have trouble understanding how that happened.

[RJBsComputer]

What you ask for is a Universe. Unfortunately, what you ask for would be so computer hardware heavy, that you would need a Cray Super-computer to run the whole thing hoping for as little lag as possible. Plus, a program that big would be very hard to debug.

[SaisMatters]

I'm sure Turbine has many, many ideas that they would LOVE to implement. The problem isn't Turbine but WotC.
Turbine can only do stuff based on A) Eberron. B) 3.5 d+d
a conversation between the two for change would probally go something like this----
Turbine to Wotc "hey, can we do this?"
Wotc replies "NO"
Turbine asks "How about this?"
Wotc laughs "NO"
Turbine begs " This would be a great idea"
Wotc shows them the door and says don't call us, we'll call you.

[Cyr]

Having examined it... you don't want to update this game. You want them to create a game on the ghost of this one at it's barest concept, but what you really want is a new game entirely with completely new and different systems.

Nonsense.

Your 20th level human FB Barb would have the same attack sequence, same to hit, same AC, same saving throws, same enhancements, same gear...and the mobs you fought would have the same stats they had before. The dungeons you ran would be the same dungeons you ran before.

There are three major pillars of this suggestion (which I am the first to admit has about as much chance of happening as me winning the lotterry)...

* The new game worlds coming in...this would be done like they are adventure packs. Essentially you step through a portal in Sigil into the FR and go to the quest hub for Undermountain. This part is perhaps the least likely part of any of my suggestions here as it would require more cash going to WotC from Turbine and some serious negotiations. Basically this is the game growing laterally to include more stuff from d&d ( just like now when they release a new adventure pack, class, or race it's just opening it up to have stuff based on FR or whatever).

* Stuff that needs to get done for future scaling. This is so as characters and monsters can keep on getting stronger. It matters not if character scaling is through loot, TRs, epic levels or some other system. This addresses various systems that right now don't work at the top end (where scaling is the most) or that will inevitable break with enough scaling. AC is the system where this is most easily seen currently. After GH non-AC builds start to reach the point where a 0 AC is the same as the highest AC they can reasonably reach (for casual or new players this happens faster). One of the main stats on a character essentially becomes meaningless. This makes moderate AC's meaningless along with all the items that help AC, but are not top AC. Basically this creates it's own min/max paradigm where you either dump it completely or max it out. My suggestions to fix these sorts of things have to do with altering how these things are rolled (ie there are more then 20 possible rolls) because that is at the heart of why these things break. Sidetrack: Pnp d20 system is great because it's really hard to calculate or roll statistics by hand. A computer is really good at this sort of thing though.

* Housekeeping stuff. Lots of this stuff is basically stuff that got put into the game to do one thing, but doesn't really work right or was a band aid fix at best. I would expect lots of disagreements over how and what needs to be fixed in these categories. This would also include suggestions having to do with entirely development (ie behind the scenes) tools and practices to increase content produced and decrease bugs.

By the way thank you all for your responses and interest this is a fun thought experiment if nothing else.

[Cyr]

I'm sure Turbine has many, many ideas that they would LOVE to implement. The problem isn't Turbine but WotC.
Turbine can only do stuff based on A) Eberron. B) 3.5 d+d
a conversation between the two for change would probally go something like this----
Turbine to Wotc "hey, can we do this?"
Wotc replies "NO"
Turbine asks "How about this?"
Wotc laughs "NO"
Turbine begs " This would be a great idea"
Wotc shows them the door and says don't call us, we'll call you.

Amusing.

However, if you bothered reading the suggestion you might have noticed the expanded rights part of the suggestion. I am well aware of the current license. It is foolishness for anyone to think this would not cost Turbine and I never stated that I thought otherwise.

The key here would be if Turbine could reach an arangment that they believed would make them more money then they would have made sticking exclusively with the Eberron IP after the extra cost of an expanded license was factored in.

[Cyr]

However, as a "If someone could just wave a magic wand" wish, i almost completely agree with you.

This is about as good a description of my suggestion as has been made so far.

In practical terms this suggestion has lots of issues that would have to be overcome by a really talented team.

Some of the big practical issues.

* Cost/Benefit Analysis coming out on the positive side for the expanded license based upon whatever WotC wants in return. I suspect WotC would want alot more then Turbine would be willing to give for it's most valuable property Forgotten Realm.

* Development resources for the many things to implement or adjust.

* Overcoming inset resistance to change within a corporate structure. Never underestimate this one as it is both general change and each individuals little castle that can cause issue.

* More hardware to support more robust data storage and new instances expected on increased load particularly for the higher expected demand new adventure packs in popular d&d settings.

* Changing corporate culture to approach development of DDO from a long term perspective.

* New developer needed to handle the transition time so the current game does not wither on the vine.

[budalic]

In DDO, the problem is that our Kobolds at level 20 turn into gods and we all have trouble understanding how that happened.

Heard about Pun Pun? (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun...acter_Build%29). It's a kobold that could become god at lvl 14 (if i recall correctly) when it appeared, and the char op crew has gotten it to lvl 5, lvl 3 and, in the end, lvl 1. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...haracter._EVER. - Wizards of the Coast forums broke older posts at one point, so it isn't really readable atm.) Enjoy.

Also, I'm not sure you played same 3.5e I did. Because wizard from your example would be a god and fighter would cry in the corner as soon as they hit lvl 7. Perhaps even earlier. The 3.5e math really does break at one point, and that doesn't even take overpowered spells (both arcane and divine) into account.

[SaisMatters]

Amusing.

However, if you bothered reading the suggestion you might have noticed the expanded rights part of the suggestion. I am well aware of the current license. It is foolishness for anyone to think this would not cost Turbine and I never stated that I thought otherwise.

The key here would be if Turbine could reach an arangment that they believed would make them more money then they would have made sticking exclusively with the Eberron IP after the extra cost of an expanded license was factored in.

Let me put it to you another way. There is ZERO chance of Turbine reaching any agreement for more licences of other D+D based worlds owned by WOTC . WOTC doesn't put all there eggs in one basket. I'm sure Turbine would of loved to be part of developing an mmo for Forgotten Realms, but they'll never get that chance now since the license has gone elsewhere to develope Neverwinter. Also, I very much doubt WOTC has any desire to develope anything under 3.5 rules anymore. Its old, and they want stuff based on the new shiny 4.0 rules.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I don't understand why people think the current game is broken.
I don't understand why people think 3.5 is broken.
I don't understand why peopl ethink 3.5 Epic is broken.

Any DDO2 would almost certainly have to be 4.0 rules.
And I don't like 4.0.

I certainly do not want to spend any money on 4. books, just so I can understand the rules my game is supposed to be following.

I liked 3.5. A lot. I like that this game follows 3.5.
And I like how they have changed it to make it work for a live action MMO.

I do not like everything they have done or agree with all of the choices. Especially where they did not follow 3.5 rules. (prestige classes)
But I understand most of their reasons.

At the slow rate that they release content, I really do not want to throw away all that we have now and start over. I have invested a lot of time here. I'm not done yet.
This game isn't done yet. It has so much potential to grow.
(give me my Druids!!!!!!!)

IMO, a redo would be a step backwards. A lot of steps backwards.

[NadgersFishtoaster]

I do not find your derogatory statements about players who play differently then you choose to be particularly persuasive or logical.

Your milleage clearly varies, but I found that when playing long term campaigns with hundreds of campaign sessions it was fairly difficult not to have the PC's run into someone above level 20 or even have the PC's advance to that level. This didn't make us DBZ watching kids power leveling willy nilly. It just made us players who played a lot of pnp. You know just like those who have been sitting at the level 20 cap in DDO.

I note that you ignored that I clearly stated that this style of play wasn't bad and I was careful to state that this kind of play is understandable. You are the one labelling DBZ fans as kids, for example, which isn't very mature of you.

However the point I was making, that you again chose to ignore, was that essentially that expecting D&D3.5 play to extend indefinitely is unwise. Those who have been sitting at the level 20 cap in DDO need to try and understand this.

The tinkering to DDO you are proposing, and your demands that other people spend money on things that you're asking for, probably won't achieve your aims.