DDO Reboot

[Cyr]

This is one of those 'big' suggestions so those who don't like walls of text should skip right over it. It is also one that would take significant developer resources and a lot of new blood over at Turbine HQ. As such it's one of those very long shot ideas for ever seeing the light of day. So onto the suggestion.

I propose a 'reboot' of DDO. Essentially this would be 'DDO2' with fully transferable characters from DDO 1 and almost all the content from DDO1 being still usuable.

The main points of the reboot follow:

* Expanded and long term license to D & D properties in an MMO setting. This would include the various campaign settings and suplementals in D & D. FR, Greyhawk, and dragonlance are all classic D&D settings that have broad appeal to legacy gamers. They also have strong lore and classic sub-settings associated with them. Planescape provides a perfect setting to integrate various worlds and lore into a single game. Ravenloft and Dark Sun provide another asset with their strong themes. Ebberron which we have been kicking around in for the past few years was a new setting with no name appeal that really had as it's main appeal a more psuedo tech feel with robots for the younger kids as a selling point. There is no reason (besides the intellectual rights) that a DDO MMO could not and should not include the various settings given enough developer resources. In this way the appeal of DDO would be much wider due to it's inclusion of the various settings and their widely differing feels.

* Legacy characters and content would carry over into the 'new' game. Essentially one day ddo would go down and the reboot would come up the next day. No two game system required or wanted here.

* Introduction of 'world/plane' rules in a wider sense. Instead of a tack on buff that does very little allow drastic alterations to the rules based upon the dungeon where appropriate. This would also include stuff like 'mythal' rules where certain spells might be more powerful or unusable for example.

* Elimination or rebalancing of various tacked on mechanics added to DDO. Let's face it most of the tacked on systems in DDO don't work right or have serious negative consequences. Dungeon Alert makes little game sense, requires hand crafted adjustments to it if it actually is to work to some degree in certain dungeons, and makes trivial mobs and dungeons slower and more 'grindy'. Dungeon Scaling actually creates a reverse incentive to grouping and would need serious adjustments to not have this largely negative effect on the game. Grazing hits was a bizzare juxtaposition to fix AC without actually addressing the real issues with it. TR's encourage grind >> challenge and need lots of work on their basic mechanic of leveling to fix this dynamic. Epic content seems to be without a clear vision, has tons of ill thought out special rules, and frankly is set up as a grind until you bleed mechanic.

* Long term fixes that allow for long term scaling of various systems that in classic D&D break down. These include AC, saving throws (have not yet hit this point, but will with continued scaling), skill checks, and ability checks. Many of these we have not hit the point of no return on yet, but with further scaling we will see more and more issues. Essentially at the heart of the issue is the d20 system. Statistical distrubitions or other creative methods that allow for no 'falling off the dice' with more gradual loss of effectiveness will be needed here. All this of course is about leveling beyond level 20.

* Fixes for badly implemented basic mechanics or mechanics in classic D&D are not very well thought out. These include ranged combat (specific powers/PrE's...are band aids and not helpful in the long term), large scale immunities on specific mobs (red/purple named this stuff is useless all of a sudden issue that we have seen lots of suggestions about how to address in specific cases), random loot tables (due to implementation random chest loot is horrible beyond a certain point and there are tons of posts to explain why this is), non scaling or too gradual scaling in some item classes, the concept of acceptably bad loot (needs to be eliminated completely...no named loot should be bad for it's level as then it is merely a waste of development resources), lesser utility of certain ability scores (int, cha, dex), xp rewards and the diminishing rewards for higher level quests. That is a laundry list of stuff that really has some basic design issues surrounding them. Often times they are issues that developed due to developer expedience or worries (ranged combat can't be good because people might exploit our bad geometry for example). Other times it is stuff that carried over from basic D&D into an online MMO badly (cha matters more in a roleplaying game then in a computer game...). Some of this will be easy to do...most not so much.

* Fixing spell casting. This point concerns the basic mismatch of utility of certain spell types compared to others such as instant damage to DoT power houses as well as the vast and unnaceptable mismatch between spells of the same type. For example, Acid Cloud does horrible damage compared to Fire Wall yet one is higher level then the other and they are both DoT type spells... Lot's of ways to address these things that have been discussed on the forums over the years.

* Refocuse of the game away from Ebberron to a wider view of the DDO universe over time.

* Robust back up methods and automatic corrections of lost data from bugs. Lost items still might happen, but they would get restored automatically every X days instead of dispearing into the ether forever. This is a big one when it comes to long term customer satisfaction and also identify these pesky bugs so you can fix them.

* 'Hand Crafted' no longer... This concerns the development of powerful data structures within code and development suites that encourage the re-usability of code and ease of entering new things into the game. Instead of hard coding in new enhancements the process should be as simple as filling in some data base fields (new extra unique abilities would be coded in still, but in a manner that new uses of them or altered uses of them would again just require a data base entry). Lots of good stuff here that can be done all in the effort to create a drastically streamlined and less error prone path from concept to implementation of new content.

* Calculated statistics. Nothing in game should be implemented based upon a 'this feels right' attitude. Math should drive the decision making process when it comes to dungeon design, ability design, item design, and rebalancing of any sort. To help this process along powerful math based evaluation programs should be developed to evaluate existing conditions as well as any proposed new development effort. Math based goals should be established for design efforts. If TWF is seen as doing too much dps the developers should know exactly what dps is done by different builds with different gear and in different content. They then should be able to determine exactly what their desired goals are. These goals and metrics should be the go to explanations when explaining new stuff coming into the game. With scripts meant to gather/calculate all sorts of interesting data the developers can quickly see the exact math behind their goals. This is not by any means limited to the systems team. These tools would be incredibly powerful in the hands of dungeon designers, particularly if statistical data about average completion times and such was included in a manner that would allow the designers to extrapolite (or even better have the scripts do it for them) these expected numbers based upon their current dungeon setups throughout the design process. As a huge part of this all this data for the current live version should be available to the players, some in game itself (like dps with current gear setup versus certain mob types) and others through an expanded interface of the wiki and MyDDO.

Lots of these things will require tons of work. Many of them will make DDO into a game that has a potential lifespan drastically longer then otherwise by addressing game mechanics that have scaling issues and increasing the efficiency of development by requiring less work to essentially be redone. The conversion to the hybrid system of payment revolutionized DDO's finances. I think DDO would do well to reboot the rest of the game. DDO2 should be DDO: + and not an entirely new game wasting most of the development effort to date.

[Stormanne]

They could make use of the Ravenloft realm as a nexus between the varied realities that exist in D&D.

[Memnir]

They could make use of the Ravenloft realm as a nexus between the varied realities that exist in D&D.

Sigil would make more sense, imho. And, it'd be a pretty good gateway to each of the Inner/Outer Planes as well.


But then, I've always had a fondness for Planescape.

[Impaqt]

DDO is set in Eberron because Turbine has a License for Eberron.

Turbine does NOT have a FR license.

Turbine does not have a Ravenloft License.

The Licensing/Business aspect of DDO is not something you can just "Change"

[samthedagger]

I am rather flabbergasted by your proposal. I can't even begin to comprehend the numerous logistical and game balance issues this kind of thing would pose. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that if Turbine develops another D&D-based MMO it will have nothing to do with DDO whatsoever. Other than offering perhaps a small financial incentive for existing DDO players to move over to the "new" D&D MMO, I can't imagine any other tie-in making sense. What you propose would use up vast business resources for comparatively little gain. I know you think opening up DDO to more settings would expand the appeal of DDO, but I can assure you that anyone who has any interest in the concept of D&D as an MMO is already playing the game or has tried it and decided it is not for them. Making versions based in different settings would bring in such minuscule numbers of players that it isn't even worth considering. TSR's attempt to profit off numerous game worlds at once is a large part of what drove them into near-bankruptcy. I can't imagine it would do anything positive for DDO.

[Stormanne]

DDO is set in Eberron because Turbine has a License for Eberron.

Turbine does NOT have a FR license.

Turbine does not have a Ravenloft License.

The Licensing/Business aspect of DDO is not something you can just "Change"

That is a logistical problem that falls under common sense. We KNOW they do not have the license for those particular realms and know that that is something that can "just change" without some serious work on the legal side of things. This is a suggestion that is more supposition than proposition. At least how I read it.

[Cyr]

DDO is set in Eberron because Turbine has a License for Eberron.

Turbine does NOT have a FR license.

Turbine does not have a Ravenloft License.

The Licensing/Business aspect of DDO is not something you can just "Change"

I figured me stating that they should expand their licenses would by common sense imply that they would of course have to actually negotate and pay for the rights to the various game worlds and products they do not currently possess...

[Cyr]

I know you think opening up DDO to more settings would expand the appeal of DDO, but I can assure you that anyone who has any interest in the concept of D&D as an MMO is already playing the game or has tried it and decided it is not for them. Making versions based in different settings would bring in such minuscule numbers of players that it isn't even worth considering. .

Yes, most players who have an interest in a D&D specific MMO have tried out DDO already. Many of those have decided it was not for them. More then a few of these decisions were based upon considerations that it didn't 'feel' like D&D without any of the iconic D&D settings.

This suggestion is not about making multiple versions of DDO. It is about creating ONE version of DDO that allows access to the multiple settings with the same toons.

Another key of this suggestion is that it is not only to address D&D 'nerds' (myself included) with it's new settings to explore. It is that the campaign setting of Eberron only creates one 'theme' without a strong lore background. Other campaign settings provide different feels to them along with the incredibly important background of strong lore that sold more then a few books. It's not just because some D&D players miss the FR, it's because some players of any type like a dark and creepy game (ravenloft), while others enjoy classic fantasy with strong lore (FR), and others just want to explore random stuff (Planescape). More importantly it's because some players like a little bit of everything.

As to the whole planescape/ravenloft based concept I'm not sure why you couldn't have both as a nexus of sorts. Both are vastly different with their themes and Sigil would be a no brainer jumping off point with Ravenloft leading to/from more 'horror' themed places like the necropolis in Eberron.

[Impaqt]

I figured me stating that they should expand their licenses would by common sense imply that they would of course have to actually negotate and pay for the rights to the various game worlds and products they do not currently possess...

WotC has never issued multiple Licenses for the same IP/Game type.

[KreepyKritter]

I have just one niggling little detail that I can't really get behind here... While I enjoy a lot of the other D&D realms/worlds/settings (Ravenloft, hello), I don't really see the need for such a massive expansion. As it is, DDO in its current incarnation has only barely scratched the surface of one corner of one continent on one planet. There is far too much to be explored and investigated in Eberron to justify expanding to OTHER worlds/planes/settings. The core classes haven't even been fully fleshed out yet.

Aside from this, I can see the long term solution you're shooting at, but I don't expect it needs to be done as a reboot, the way you describe it. There have been a lot of band-aid/OMFG IT IZ BORKED! MUZT FIGZ NAOW! type corrections (TWF nerf? DA? Grazing hit?) getting slung out. As short term fixes, I understand the need for these kinds of things, but they fail to address the actual issue. Sadly, to do that may very well take the kind of wide-scale tinkering Cyr describes, though it might mean going without an update for 6-12 months while said tinkering is completed...

I think, given the overall loyalty of the majority of DDO players, most of us would be satisfied playing without an update, if we knew the next BIG effort from the Development Team would mean a HUGE, game wide, fix of issues that have been harped on for years at a time. Though I doubt the return on the investment, required for the kind of expansion of the game world itself mentioned in the OP, would justify all that work. Better to fix what is already there, than make an even bigger mess.

[Cyr]

WotC has never issued multiple Licenses for the same IP/Game type.

Yes, and that would be the long shot part of this. WotC cares about two things money and the value of their IPs. I would think that Turbine would have to let the FR property be sold freely by WotC in non-MMO form for WotC to part with it's MMO rights. WotC probably doesn't expect multiple D&D based MMO's to exist at the same time so that part of the consideration would largely be just how much more they can get from Turbine for the other properties use withint DDO. In the end it all depends on what type of deal Turbine offers them and how they view MMO/other types of games compared to say MMO/novels.

[waterboytkd]

Although it would be great to see these changes, I don't think it could be done with a revamping of DDO. They would have to make a new game. I say this mostly with respect to the scaling correction. D&D 3.5 was broken. Especially at high levels. Especially when you went beyond 20th level. Characters who focused on having a good AC would get their AC to high enough levels that nothing level-appropriate could hit them except on a 20. And things that could hit them with more frequency would hit everyone else on everything except a 1. Damage-focused characters could get their damages so high that they'd kill most non-dragon badguys in 1 round. Spellcasters could get their DCs to the point that badguys just couldn't make the saves (which was instant-kills for spells like Finger and Wail).

The reasons for this was because as players kept playing, they kept gaining more and more bonuses to whatever it was they were trying to max out, and the die roll just couldn't keep up. In order to balance 3.5, DMs had to handcraft monsters by adjusting the base stats given in the MMs so that they'd be a challenge to the party without obsoleting someones abilities. It was a nightmare for the DMs.

The balance and scaling you suggest did eventually come into being...when they did 4th edition. And 4th edition was not just a "here's the little ways you can change your 3.5 stuff to make it 4th." It was a total overhaul. It was a totally different game. But, the good folks at WotC used math to make it so that things would stay balanced from levels 1 to 30. They limited the types of bonuses you could gain to AC, to Attack, to Damage, so that people who were trying to max out one of those factors would only be beating the others by maybe 20% (+4). They designed the game so that the die roll would always matter to some degree.

If Turbine ever did to a massive overhaul like you're suggesting, I think (and am probably going to get flamed for this) they would do much better just making DDO2 and using the 4th ed rule set. I also believe that the 4th ed rules set is much more suited for being ported into an MMO, as it was designed so that all classes would have an equal participation in combat, regardless of "role-playing abilities," and, I feel, took a lot of design from existing MMO concepts (like Fighters being tanks, so 4th ed Fighters get actual abilities to make bad guys focus on them).

All that said, I doubt they will put the time/effort/money into cannibalizing their current DDO revenue stream with a DDO2, but if they do, I would vote for Planescape. It would allow them to also incorporate the other settings players love (license pending, obviously). Part of character creation could be choosing a home world (Eberron, Faerun, Athas, Ansalon [or whatever the Dragonlance world is called], or Sigil), and the korthos-esque beginning would be getting to know your world a bit and then getting sent off to Sigil. Sigil would be like the marketplace--a hub for all the other adventures you can do. Instead of going off to different regions of a continent, you would be sent off to different worlds. And because they would be starting off with a plethora of early game content (if you didn't choose Faerun as your starting world, you could still find your way there, do the intro quests, and learn about it while earning some useful/unique early game loot and xp), they could focus a lot of their later development on mid- to late-game content.

With that book done, it's time for me to end this post.

[Wren666]

Sigil would make more sense, imho. And, it'd be a pretty good gateway to each of the Inner/Outer Planes as well.


But then, I've always had a fondness for Planescape.

Marry me.

[Cyr]

4th edition...

Yeah, a main thrust of this is to avoid wasting the work put into DDO and going to yet another edition. AC is broken because people fall off the dice. In a computer game you don't have to make the 'dice' like you do in a hand calculated real world dice rolling game. Amazing thing is that you can fix AC by altering how AC is rolled. There are more then a few suggestions about how this can be accomplished in other threads. Similar ideas can be applied to saving throw rolls and other rolls to keep DDO able to scale beyond where normal D&D starts to break down.

[NadgersFishtoaster]

/unsigned

D&D3.5 is not broken for the rules were written with the assumption that characters will retire at level 20. At 20th characters are such formidable combatants that keeping providing challenges become harder and harder, especially when they are assembled in diverse parties, but again this a feature not a bug.

Within classic D&D 20th level is where you travel to rather than stay indefinitely.

Games like WoW has this "play forever" element written into them. However the cost is that they are homogenised and therefore made blander in the process.

In a D&D3.5 textured environment if a character discovers that the opponents he is fighting can hit *almost* any AC then he or she works out a way to deal with it rather than seeking to change the universe itself. A D&D player worth his or her salt sits down and works the best design, and the best tactics, for such a situation.

For such is a D&D3.5 environment's distinctiveness.

People who want to play something blander, and simpler, can play WoW at the moment or be able to wait a short while for the D&D4 game to be released. I'm also led to believe that RuneScape has a very high level cap too.

However please don't try to ruin this corner of the Internet that has escaped this trend for blander, easier, endless games.

[Cyr]

Within classic D&D 20th level is where you travel to rather than stay indefinitely.

I found that in every edition of D&D that I played there was supplemental material for level 21+. I found that the important characteristic of when a campaign ended was when the PC's wanted it to end, the DM wanted it to end, or the PC's died.

Out of curiousity what is the alternative you propose? From what I read it looks like the game should basically be over when you hit 20 in your mind...

[wonkey]

I think multiple settings, which a lot of people are dying for, would be disastrous for the game. Not only would it be difficult to obtain, and costly, using resources better spent elsewhere, but it would, by necessity, mean that each setting would be very sparse initially, and grow slowly, as resources spent growing the game would be divided amongst all the settings.
Sure, some of the load could be shared, but a lot of it could not. You's also get people complaining that there wasn't enough variation between the settings, and it won't reflect their dreams, because the developers, almost by necessity, are sure to try sharing as much as possible from realm to realm.

And, while there is what to be said for lore, and that would certainly bring in some players who wouldn't come otherwise, I think one of the reasons (besides for it probably being easier to get a liscence for) they picked Eberron, and specifically Xendrik, was BECAUSE the lore is so sparse. The book is wide open for them and us to carve out this little corner for our own story. And that freedom and potential is great, in my opinion.

If they could build in some more persistent content, via events or similar, so that our characters could actively drive the story of DDO, THAT would be awesome!

[donfilibuster]

I propose a 'reboot' of DDO. Essentially this would be 'DDO2' with fully transferable characters from DDO 1 and almost all the content from DDO1 being still usuable.

Sadly it's hard to hope for fully transferable accounts when they are out to make you buy colors.

[Cyr]

it would, by necessity, mean that each setting would be very sparse initially, and grow slowly, as resources spent growing the game would be divided amongst all the settings.
Sure, some of the load could be shared, but a lot of it could not. You's also get people complaining that there wasn't enough variation between the settings, and it won't reflect their dreams, because the developers, almost by necessity, are sure to try sharing as much as possible from realm to realm.

I am thinking something along the lines of the following.

A) Initial Nexus point introduced (probably Sigil) This would be a whole new city that could and would be expanded over time. This would serve as a jumping off point to other settings as it's primary purpose at first.

B) Small Locations in the major worlds that the Nexus connects to. These are 'quest hubs' like stormreach is. FR should be someplace iconic like a ward in Waterdeep. Each quest hub starts as basically an adventure pack. "The Trouble in Undermountain" could be the first FR pack for example. This certainly would feel scarce at first.

C) Overtime each setting is focused on in detail with minor content expansions for the additional settings during this time. During these big passes you develop more of a game world that feels like it is full with content spread a little more through the level ranges.

Remember that DDO is basically a game of instances. The intial quest hubs should provide a strong sense of connection to the setting. Ravenloft should be very creepy. Sigil will look pretty interesting if done like the source books....

The idea here is not to try and have each setting as a 'starting' zone, but more of a destination until they have reached a critical mass to support that place as a 'starting' zone. The story line should lead you to the other planes/settings from Eberron or Sigil. All the existing planar hubs (Amarath/Vale) should be accessable from Sigil also tying them as much to Sigil as Eberron. Other outer/inner plane adventure could start in Sigil or FR if they have FR storylines for example (like a shadow plane set of adventures based upon the Harper's enemies there...).

Hopefully in this manner the lack of tons of content in a particular setting does not cause it to feel empty anymore then any other place you travel to in DDO currently.

[Cyr]

Sadly it's hard to hope for fully transferable accounts when they are out to make you buy colors.

lol yup you certainly have a point.

On the plus side for them if they do allow those fully transferable accounts they can shut down DDO1, keep the existing dungeons (aka adventure packs), and not worry about losing any existing customers.