DDO Reboot

[Uska]

would never work any ddo2 would be done with 4E and none of our gear or characters would be compatible nor would I be with such a game.

[Uska]

lol yup you certainly have a point.

On the plus side for them if they do allow those fully transferable accounts they can shut down DDO1, keep the existing dungeons (aka adventure packs), and not worry about losing any existing customers.

yes they would I know many that would leave in a skinny minute as I saw something like that happen with SWG when it went NGE and the game went to hell on a hot rail

[Uska]

Heard about Pun Pun? (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Pun-Pun...acter_Build%29). It's a kobold that could become god at lvl 14 (if i recall correctly) when it appeared, and the char op crew has gotten it to lvl 5, lvl 3 and, in the end, lvl 1. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thre...haracter._EVER. - Wizards of the Coast forums broke older posts at one point, so it isn't really readable atm.) Enjoy.

Also, I'm not sure you played same 3.5e I did. Because wizard from your example would be a god and fighter would cry in the corner as soon as they hit lvl 7. Perhaps even earlier. The 3.5e math really does break at one point, and that doesn't even take overpowered spells (both arcane and divine) into account.

pun pun could never happen in a properly ran game and never would have happend in mine as I didnt allow optional books only the core 3.

[Thuriaz]

Also, I'm not sure you played same 3.5e I did. Because wizard from your example would be a god and fighter would cry in the corner as soon as they hit lvl 7. Perhaps even earlier. The 3.5e math really does break at one point, and that doesn't even take overpowered spells (both arcane and divine) into account.

Actually never heard about Pun Pun, my experience though in D&D 3.5 certainly did see how divine and arcane casters could be over powered ASSUMING they got the first attack. Lets look at the hypothetical - AT Level D&D - level 7 caster.

Stats: At best, assuming rolling 3d6 for stats.
Str:8
Dex: 12
Con:18
Wis:6
Int:18
Cha:10

That's a fairly nromal spread for a wizard. Lets look at what that means at level 7.

Assuming an average roll of 3 on the D4 for HP that would be 49HP.

Now, an unprepared battle starts up, how good will the initiative rolls be for this wizard compared to a capable Dual Wielding Fighter? Factor in combat techniques like stunning blow, factor in movement speed, the fact that the fighter will likely not miss, and then chance for a critical, will our wizard even get a chance to make an attack? What happens if he gets bull rushed and is prone? Or Tripped?

My old DM and good friend put it best "Fully prepared, aware of the danger coming toward him, having had time to take precautions a wizard is the most dangerous thing in D&D. Caught unaware, or unprepared, or even prepared but by surprise or on an unlucky roll and it doesn't take very much to kill them."

Mind you, the other side of all of that is true. If a wizard in the party decides he just wants to nuke one of the tin can's in the party there is very little stopping them.

[budalic]

Now, an unprepared battle starts up, how good will the initiative rolls be for this wizard compared to a capable Dual Wielding Fighter? Factor in combat techniques like stunning blow, factor in movement speed, the fact that the fighter will likely not miss, and then chance for a critical, will our wizard even get a chance to make an attack? What happens if he gets bull rushed and is prone? Or Tripped?

My old DM and good friend put it best "Fully prepared, aware of the danger coming toward him, having had time to take precautions a wizard is the most dangerous thing in D&D. Caught unaware, or unprepared, or even prepared but by surprise or on an unlucky roll and it doesn't take very much to kill them."

Mind you, the other side of all of that is true. If a wizard in the party decides he just wants to nuke one of the tin can's in the party there is very little stopping them.

Since you're discussing core only stuff, I think wizard will have improved initiative at this point. But yes, core-only wizard could be killed at this point. Still, out of the range fight would see wizard wining 9/10 cases. Hell, simple polymorph would alow wizard to beat fighter in area which fighter is specialised in. So it comes down to preparedness of the character, and wizard should be about preparation more that any other class. After lvl 11 wizard gets contigency, so it isn't that much trouble anyway.
And dual-wielding is for rogues. Fighter would be better of with two-handed weapon and specialising in charging and tripping. Just sayin'

But your fighter would be screwed if attacking unprepared cleric anyway. Cleric with divine power is plainly better in all cases at this level. He can outmelee fighter with all the buffs, and he can outcast fighter with spell as simple as hold person.

As for pun-pun, it isn't about casting, it's about taking other monster abilities - more about stuff like wild shape. Pun pun (and the broken wild shape feature and polymorph spells) is the main reason 4e dropped stuff like that.