Battle Cleric Build Critique...

[elfforce1]

Currently I'm working on finishing up maybe 1 or 2 gs items before I tr on my cleric, having played with some bad battle clerics and knowing that there is a general negative feeling towards them, I took up the challenge of creating a descent one, my goal for this character is to first be able to fill the heal-bot role with the only disadvantages being fewer spell points, spell dc and the number of turns and second being able to fill the melee role with the only disadvantages being less bab/attack and less melee boosting enhancements/feats compared to the other melee classes. Also of note on this build is the lack of concentration and the focus on jump, playing my current cleric I rarely ever turn off quicken and keep running into situations where the jump skill is useful, so that's my reasoning behind that decision. I also chose warforged over human because I like them better than the other races so that decision was more of a flavor one. Oh btw, I will be using a +2 wisdom tomb on this build so with my +6 wisdom item I'll reach 20wisdom. Now I would like for you guys to go over my build and post any feedback, right now I think it's good enough, but I could be wrong and would love to hear your thoughts before I tr.

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Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(1 Fighter \ 2 Monk \ 17 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 374
Spell Points: 1056 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 21
Reflex: 7
Will: 14

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    21
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         20                    22
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom               12                    12
Charisma              6                     6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance              -1                     0
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         5                     6
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                0                     2
Heal                  1                     3
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate           -2                    -2
Jump                  5                    28
Listen                1                     1
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     0
Spot                  1                     1
Swim                  3                     5
Tumble               n/a                    1
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 4 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Cleric)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Cleric)


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Fighter Item Defense I
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness IV
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend III
Enhancement: Warforged Inscribed Armor I

Thanks for all your replies they are greatly appreciated. Fyi, I did not include any equipment, because there's always new stuff coming out, but right now I currently have a completed mineral 2 greatsword and am working on my CO goggles, I also have Torin's Choker and Belt of the Seven Ideals so I'll have potency without having to carry a potency weapon.

[AtomicMew]

dbl post

[AtomicMew]

1) I don't think you need inscribed armor, since cleric's don't receive arcane spell failure. (Could be wrong, I don't play WF).

2) Monk 2 doesn't really give you anything, besides 2 extra feats... you aren't making use of evasion. I think you are far better off doing 18/2 cleric/fighter, for hitting the 15 BAB breakpoint unbuffed and for hitting the radiant aura breakpoint (when it finally gets fixed). Either way, you'd want to drop empower spell, because with such low wisdom, you simply won't be casting offensive spells effectively. Personally, I would even drop maximize as well and pick up IC:Slashing.

3) As for concentration - that's still needed to use wands/scrolls, so it's pretty important. Jump is not important, because you can always ask your arcane to cast jump spell on you when the quest requires it. (That's what they're there for, afterall.)

[Shaftronics]

From my own experiences with a Warforged FvS, a Clonk and a classic Battle THF Battle Cleric, I'll do what I can.

Why 2 levels of monk, if I may ask? Feats? The Wisdom bonus to AC? Just wondering.

The THF Feat line isn't really worth taking if you're not supposed to gain too much aggro and just wanted to help out with DPS, in my opinion as playing one. Also, with 6 Charisma, you won't be able to get Divine Might I, which requires 14 Cha. For the uninitiated, that's the pre-requisite to the Cleric PrE, Radiant Servant.

Divine spells are different from Arcane ones, in that you can cast them even in Heavy armor. You won't need Inscribed Armor, and you could actually take the Adamantine Body armor feat, though that would affect your jump slightly.

As the above poster said as well, you might wanna drop Maximize and go with IC: Slashing. Makes quite the difference with DPS and crit-based effects on your weapons, if you have any. Empowered for Blade Barrier, I guess?

But yeah... Other than the points above, you could really drop the entire THF Line for 3 spare feats. An additional toughness, if you want.

Otherwise, it would really be much easier just making a Warforged FvS, if you want to fight while fulfilling a healbot role, and if you're not utilizing the advantages of the Cleric class, like its PrE. Also, Favored Souls get Jump as a class skill even, which is what you were looking for.

[AtomicMew]

The THF Feat line isn't really worth taking if you're not supposed to gain too much aggro and just wanted to help out with DPS, in my opinion as playing one. Also, with 6 Charisma, you won't be able to get Divine Might I, which requires 14 Cha. For the uninitiated, that's the pre-requisite to the Cleric PrE, Radiant Servant.

You don't need Divine Might for radiant servant.

[Shaftronics]

That was true when it was FIRST released. I was shocked to know it was changed though.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhan...iant_Servant_I

Trust me, I -just -made my Clonk.

[elfforce1]

Thanks for the responses guys. In response to the above posts, I want cleric to be my primary class and warforged to be my race, those aren't changing. I have a mineral greatsword, it has keen, so I don't need ic:slashing and I tend to solo so I kinda already have agro to begin with. I was going with only 17 cleric levels so I could fit in feats from the other classes monk/fighter. The cleric18/other class 2, is a good combo and I was already thinking of that, but haven't finally decided yet. Also a quick question, does BAB of 15 really differ that greatly from bab of 14 if I'm going to be using divine power anyways?

[Sibellya]

That was true when it was FIRST released. I was shocked to know it was changed though.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Enhan...iant_Servant_I

Trust me, I -just -made my Clonk.

Divine Might I was never a mandatory pre-req for the PrE. It was always 'one of...' any of the 'Divine X' Enhancements. Many people just took Divine Vitality I.

Dumping Concentration is a valid choice, but be warned that it makes it very difficult to complement your combat casting with scroll use. When healing a dedicated tank you will probably want to alternate between casting Heal and scrolling Heal in order to stretch your SP that much further. This is not a reliable option without concentration.

Regarding the build itself, I would recommend for a good Battle Cleric that you build a Half-Orc Cleric 18 / Fighter 2 instead. Neither WF or Monk 2 will really do much for you.

While WF synergise well with FvS you won't get much benefit out of being a WF Cleric; sure you get the often-raved about WF immunities (overrated IMO) but the cost is reduced divine healing. Lack of WF immunities is well and truly covered by your spell arsenal (Remove X, Panacea, Heal) and a fleshy with Quickened self-Heal is very durable. Half-Orc gets the full benefit of Divine Healing and will out-DPS the WF due to their TWF-related Enhancements, and you aren't limited to Greatswords only (Greataxe and Falchion are better in most situations).

Monk 2 gets you stances, two extra feats from a limited list, Wisdom bonus to AC and Evasion. You can't use Monk stances with a Greatsword, building for AC is useless unless you go all-out, and Evasion is only useful if you have the Reflex to back it up. I have played a low-Dex Clonk before and Evasion rarely triggered.

As a Cleric 18 / Fighter 2 you will have a total of 9 feats. I would recommend: Toughness, Extend, Empower Healing, Quicken, Maximise, Power Attack, Improved Critical, TWF, ITWF. You could swap Improved Critical for GTWF if you exclusively use Min II or Keen weapons.

[Shaftronics]

Ah, I stand corrected then.

Probably wonder what was going through my head when I made that Clonk then. Now I'll have to think of re-rolling 'em when I can, or a Lesser Heart of Wood...

Otherwise, as Sibellya said, a classic 18 Clr/2 Ftr Battle Cleric will do fine. Otherwise, you really might as well go for a Warforged FvS for its synergies.

[Helsdot]

... I want cleric to be my primary class and warforged to be my race, those aren't changing....

This is a pretty fateful decision. If you are dead-set on this combination, well, that's what you're going to do, but I would strongly council against it, especially if you plan to solo.



Dumping Charisma entirely can be painful for any Cleric. Not crippling, but painful, especially if you want to perform in melee. You lose DM and will have very few turns to use with Radiant Servant. Being WF and not an Arcane caster, you'll need all the healing output you can get. Losing both damage and healing is bit of a blow.

Losing DM costs you a significant damage boost in melee. DM3 (16 base Char) is +6 damage to every swing. That's a fair amount of damage.

I don't see a reason to go 1 Ftr/2 Mnk. I would guess you're using Fighter for extra feats, but Fighter gives you so much that you're not going to use. If you're going 2 Monk you gain stances and Evasion, but those will not work using the weapons you gain access to with Fighter Martial proficiency or the armor you gain access to with Fighter Heavy Armor proficiency (and shields are right out...). I'm not sure what else you would do, but there are other ways of picking up an extra feat. I know you don't want to, but you'd get an extra feat if you go Human, and you wouldn't have to take a level of a class you mostly won't use.

I don't see how your defenses will shape up. If you're going to be Evasion-based, you need a lot more Dex. If you're going to be AC-based, Monk isn't giving you a whole lot (Wisdom->AC conversion only goes so far) since you need to heap on some pretty heavy armor. Unfortunately trying to balance in the middle will mean that both your Evasion and AC defenses aren't all that strong. You'll have very good Fort and Will saves as well as immunities, but you'll be taking most physical hits right on the chin and will be healing yourself at reduced effectiveness with easily-interruptible heals (low Concentration). That sounds like a recipe for owchies.

Why so much Wis and Int? +2 Int for 2 skill points per level? You can buy boots and pots of Jump, but Concentration is a rarer commodity. Would it be so bad to keep some Jump clickies around and have 1 skill point per level to put in Con or Balance?



While a WF Cleric with this build might work out fine in PnP where you have a DM who can spin adventures that are uniquely suited for you and can twiddle monsters and numbers so you'll have fun and a good chance of success, DDO has all of its dungeons set already, so you aren't rewarded for actual roleplaying of odd builds. If you aren't optimized and solo a lot, you can have a lot of pain. I'd really recommend reconsidering a WF melee Cleric. If you're dead-set on a WF melee Cleric, I'd recommend first deciding on one type of defense, AC or Evasion, and going full-power to enhance it. If Evasion, buff Dex and consider TWF and Monk weapons over THF - if AC, consider leaving off Monk and possibly consider True Neutral (for Balanced armor and damage reduction). As a WF your self-healing will be gimpy, so you really need super-solid defenses. I'd also recommend trying to get up 14 to 16 base Cha to meet requirements for DM and extra turns for RS. If you're soloing you're going to need to really push the odds in your favor. I'd be very wary of running with no Concentration (especially when you need 1+ heals to land to heal the amount of 1 on another race).

Good luck.

[Sibellya]

Thanks for the responses guys. In response to the above posts, I want cleric to be my primary class and warforged to be my race, those aren't changing. I have a mineral greatsword, it has keen, so I don't need ic:slashing and I tend to solo so I kinda already have agro to begin with. I was going with only 17 cleric levels so I could fit in feats from the other classes monk/fighter. The cleric18/other class 2, is a good combo and I was already thinking of that, but haven't finally decided yet. Also a quick question, does BAB of 15 really differ that greatly from bab of 14 if I'm going to be using divine power anyways?

BAB 15 will give you a faster swing speed than BAB 14. Divine Power increases your To Hit but doesn't increase your swing speed to match the higher BAB.

If your heart is set on a WF Battlecleric swinging a Min II Greatsword then don't let anyone stop you. Your first priority should always be to enjoy what you're doing. That said, don't expect to get much love from PUGs and be ready to deal with a relatively long and difficult solo leveling process.

Go with Cleric 18 / Fighter 2. Starting stats should be max STR and CON and dump the rest. Your first level should be Cleric and the skill to raise is Concentration (trust me you will need it even with Quicken). Second level should be Fighter and raise your Balance (being knocked-down while soloing is typically game-over). Concentration is the skill to max out; eat a +2 INT tome at level 7 and increase Balance with your extra points after that. Feats in order should be Toughness, TWF, Extend, Empower Healing, Power Attack, Quicken, Maximise, ITWF, GTWF.

Good luck and have fun

[DrNuegebauer]

2 monk is ok for evasion - but you'd want a little bit more in the reflex save department (which you CAN get easily enough).

You can live without one of the 2HF line feats - why not ditch the fighter level and take a rogue level instead. You get some lock fun, and you get some UMD fun.

Start at 18 con - you still get to 485 hp very easily in basic gear (20+158+180+22+40+10+30+20+5)

From the 6 build points you save, put 4 to dex and 2 to int. 3 skill points per level (conc, UMD) and you can get to +5 dex bonus very easily (12+2tome+6item)

Then you have a reflex save that is worthwhile --> 10(levels) + 5(res) + 2(recitation) +4(holy aura) +5(stat) +4(GH) = 30 without ritual/haste.

The OTHER thing might be to sacrifice con back to 16 base and start on 14 wisdom. But that's for you to figure out I guess? you lose another 20 hp and gain a few more SP - but you'll have enough to heal away in the end anyhow I suppose.

IF you go this way (rogue in place of fighter) then I strongly recommend taking the Lord of Blades enhancement over the sovereign host one (unyielding sovereignty isn't worth it) - that way you can swing your minII greatsword!

I think it looks like a bit of fun! Enjoy

[Sibellya]

You might also like to consider splashing a level of Wizard. This would allow you to no-fail use various useful arcane wands to make your leveling experience much smoother; Repair wands to supplement your divine healing and defensive buffs including Shield, Blur and Stoneskin (which I believe should stack with WF DR as both are DR/Adamantine).

You can either substitute one Fighter level for a Wizard level (choose Quicken/Maximise as your bonus feat instead of Power Attack/ITWF/GTWF) or go for a 17/2/1 level split. The latter option gives you an extra feat, for which you could choose Improved Crit (if you ever decide to upgrade your Min II to Lit II) or something a little more esoteric like Quick Draw (to speed up Heal scroll usage) or Augment Summon (if you tend to 'solo' with Hirelings or summons).

[DrNuegebauer]

You might also like to consider splashing a level of Wizard. This would allow you to no-fail use various useful arcane wands to make your leveling experience much smoother; Repair wands to supplement your divine healing and defensive buffs including Shield, Blur and Stoneskin (which I believe should stack with WF DR as both are DR/Adamantine).

You can either substitute one Fighter level for a Wizard level (choose Quicken/Maximise as your bonus feat instead of Power Attack/ITWF/GTWF) or go for a 18/2/1 level split. The latter option gives you an extra feat, for which you could choose Improved Crit (if you ever decide to upgrade your Min II to Lit II) or something a little more esoteric like Quick Draw (to speed up Heal scroll usage) or Augment Summon (if you tend to 'solo' with Hirelings or summons).

HE already has the fighter level?

And on the wizard thing: no no no no! Take rogue and UMD (as above) if you want to use wands etc. Takes a little longer to get there, but sooo much more useful in the end.

[elfforce1]

Wow, thanks for the help guys, alot of you made some valid points and I'll probably rework it to make things synergize more. This is why I posted my build, so much more feedback than me, myself and I, lol.

[Inferno346]

18/2/1 level split.

I wish I could make 18/2/1 characters

[Sibellya]

HE already has the fighter level?

And on the wizard thing: no no no no! Take rogue and UMD (as above) if you want to use wands etc. Takes a little longer to get there, but sooo much more useful in the end.

How is he going to get useful UMD on this kind of build? Taking one level of Rogue (as first level presumably) will unlock UMD to 23 ranks but it will still take 2 skill points per Cleric or Fighter level to increase it by 1 rank. This build could never get to 23 ranks unless build points were redirected to INT and other, more critical, skills were sacrificed. Even with 23 ranks of UMD you're going to need a lot of specialised gear to get it to a useful level, especially with CHA as a dump-stat. Sure, he might have useful UMD at level 20 with a Cartouche, Shroud CHA-skills item and a Greater Heroism clicky but UMD is not going to make leveling this build any easier.

One level of Wizard gives him everything he would need UMD for at level 2 or 3 (whenever he takes it).

My bad about the 18/2/1, obviously I meant 17/2/1

[bigolbear]

I have a similar build my myself - same class distribution but its a dwarf and i have more even stats - dex is high enough to qualify for twf (with a tome) and wis was 16 starting.

One thing i can tell you for certain is that my reflex save (which is about 10 points higher than yours will be) is not good enough to have reliable evasion on hard or elite content, and truth be told evasion is unneeded on normal. The ac bonus from wisdom wont get the ac high enough to make a significant difference on hard and elite above lv 14 and again its unnecesary on normal.

Im planning on eventualy TR ing - and when i do ill be dropping the monk lvls.

Unless you realy need the feats id suggest fighter 1 cleric 19 or 2/19. or 1/2/17 barb/fighter/cleric for a more mobile warrior.

As a further alternative if you only plan on using greatswords why not make a pure cleric and pick up the weapon feat?

my experience of playing a battle clonk to lvl 20 is that you need a good wisdom and good dex and good gear like ac raid gear and save bonus stuff to make the AC and saves relaible. This wont leave enough stats/feats/gear slots to get a decent dps.

[FluffyCalico]

Since many of a clerics most potent dps and "battle" abilities are its spells the 12 wisdom is a bad choice as it will cripple your spell DCs...If you are tossing away every spell with a dc you don't need the larger selection that clerics can keep memed.

If you are trying to do a pure melee with self healing then make a fvs as they are far better at it especially since you are going wf whose DR stacks with FVS and grants them greatswords IE ESOS and more hp and better resists, and better jump, and more sp. The only disadvantage to fvs is the # of spells they can know and that they can't switch them at random...but you completely negated those as negatives when you went with 12 wisdom removing any need for any spell with a DC

[DrNuegebauer]

How is he going to get useful UMD on this kind of build? Taking one level of Rogue (as first level presumably) will unlock UMD to 23 ranks but it will still take 2 skill points per Cleric or Fighter level to increase it by 1 rank. This build could never get to 23 ranks unless build points were redirected to INT and other, more critical, skills were sacrificed. Even with 23 ranks of UMD you're going to need a lot of specialised gear to get it to a useful level, especially with CHA as a dump-stat. Sure, he might have useful UMD at level 20 with a Cartouche, Shroud CHA-skills item and a Greater Heroism clicky but UMD is not going to make leveling this build any easier.

One level of Wizard gives him everything he would need UMD for at level 2 or 3 (whenever he takes it).

My bad about the 18/2/1, obviously I meant 17/2/1

He's starting with 10 int. So by level 7 that's 3 skill points per level.

2xUMD 1xconc.

Prior to level 7 he has 4 ranks (1rogue) plus at least 6 other half ranks.
So worst case would be 20 UMD (the bonus monk skill points could bring that up to worst case 22).

6 base CHR +2 tome +2 cler +6 item = 16 (easy) = +3

20 UMD
3 chr
3 cartouche
4 GH (gird is easy to get at worst)
1 luck (voice standard)
5 GS con opp item (would make this surely - 6 is also possible)
2 skill boost

That's 38 - plenty for wands/ scrolls etc etc. That let's you use SCROLLS as well as wands. Scrolls are sooo much better (GT, teleport, GH, fireshield etc). And that 38 is a conservative number. +3 for full UMD (very possible); 1 more for HoGF; 1 more GS etc