The Golddigger

[dogonovo]

Opinions from a beginner so you milleage WILL vary =)

I took my lvl 14 CHA/CC/Heal based Spellsinger to Lamannia and LR'd him. STR 18 DEX 08 CON 16 WIS 08 INT 08 CHA 14, level ups in STR. Same feats he had but took Maximize instead of SF: Enchant and Power attack instead of Heighten, traded every CC spell in his spellbook for a utility/buff alternative. Effectively I traded CC/DCs for STR/dmg. Got Spellsinger II too obviously. Didnt change a single item in his equipment.

What I can say is that in areas/quests where before I had to be very careful and really worry about not using all my SP, now he can just enter, buff and rush. More survivability (due to MUCH faster killing), more improvements for the party (spell slots not occupied by CC spells, more SP for healing, etc) and definetly a better sense of contribution. Not that I personally didnt/dont like CC, but my limited experience in parties tells that CC is good to have (as most things are) but absolutely not a must. And by reading the forums I believe CC in epics is restricted to Irressistible (no save), Fascinate (no significant change in my DC) and spells that dont belong to the bard spell list (mass hold, mass comand, etc).

All in all I am happy, he can heal better than before, fight better than before and that darned oversized kobold in Mired In Kobolds will not laugh at the lonely bard entering her hoard chamber anymore ^^ (tho the second dragon still has bragging rights and at least 45% HP left...).


PS - Would love more experienced advice on the Empower Healing + Empower/Maximize. Which combination makes for more cost-efficient heals at lvl 20? Is one or the other (or both) particularly useful or a must have for parts of the game I havent experienced yet? Thanks already

[Aashrym]

PS - Would love more experienced advice on the Empower Healing + Empower/Maximize. Which combination makes for more cost-efficient heals at lvl 20? Is one or the other (or both) particularly useful or a must have for parts of the game I havent experienced yet? Thanks already

Empower healing is a little more SP efficient than maximize healing. Maximize healing gives bigger bursts and is more efficient than no feat and less efficient than empower healing. I normally run both on my healing spell singer, but if you are going to only select one maximize is the better choice for when faster healing becomes a priority.

You can consider empower spell instead of empower healing. It helps healing and greater shout damage if you decide to take it, but it is less SP efficient than either maximize or empower healing on it's own, where maximize will also help with healing and greater shout. IE maximize is better in this case if you are only taking 1 feat.

Hopefully that helps.

[dogonovo]

Thanks, but actually I am debating whether I should go for Emp Heal + Maximize OR Emp Heal + Empower Spell. Using two feats activated together Maximize costs more but I am not sure if it (Empower Healing + Maximize) is more SP efficient than the other alternative (Empower Heal + Empower Spell).

[Aashrym]

Thanks, but actually I am debating whether I should go for Emp Heal + Maximize OR Emp Heal + Empower Spell. Using two feats activated together Maximize costs more but I am not sure if it (Empower Healing + Maximize) is more SP efficient than the other alternative (Empower Heal + Empower Spell).

Empower Heal + Maximize Spell is more SP efficient than Empower Heal + Empower Spell AND gives you better burst healing. That is definitely better.

Edit: For clarification, I am referring to Cure Critical Wounds and higher level cure spells. Depending on level you may want to start with Empower heal first and take maximize after a bit.

[Irinis]

Actually, maximize and empower healing are equally efficient on a Bard because we don't get Heal or Mass Heal (which Maximize doesn't work on anyway). They are mathematically identical in terms of efficiency. Maximize is just bigger and that enables you to actually heal raids. It will also work on our one and only offensive spell, Greater Shout. (Whoop de do.)

If you can only take one, take Maximize. If you're taking more than that, you'll run out of SP very quickly on a non-max-CHA character and I haven't even bothered on my max CHA Spellsinger. Emp Heal + Emp is less efficient but would give you toggle options if you really want that. Personally I don't find it worth it. Now if we got actual offensive spells that worked, it'd be a different story. I'd be happy to trade some efficiency for being able to nuke. (Of course, that would make the Bard feat list even more tight than it already is... sigh.)

Dogonovo - Discoball is used in some epics and only works with a very high DC. My Diva build has only half the gear she needs for max DC, and they do still save sometimes. I had to equip a Greater Spell Focus: Enchant item to make it work at all at 36 CHA. Just got 38 CHA and still have to equip it. We'll see what happens at 40 and 42 CHA.

[Aashrym]

Empower Heal costs 20 SP for for the same amount of healing Maximize spell costs 25 SP for. Am I missing something I should be seeing?

And disco ball is awesome.

PS: Cure critical wounds, for example costs 25 SP base. So it's 25 SP to cast it once. Adding 50% twice=100% more HP for 20 SP, which is cheaper than casting it twice. Maximize costs 25 SP. So a single maximize costs the same as casting it twice but only takes 1 cast. The same SP, same healing, faster healing, more efficient at that point.

Any time the SP cost < the base cost a player will save SP by using the meta feat, with the exception for over healing. I run both empowered healing and maximize healing because it's cheaper for the HP/SP cost than not having them up and saves me SP. This gets better with mass cure light and mass cure moderate. 35 base SP twice would give less HP than spending the same 35 SP on both feats and casting the spell once.

Hopefully that helps.

Edit: For empowered healing or empowered spell to be SP efficient the feat needs to cost less than half of the base cost of the spell. For maximize to be SP efficient the base cost needs to be 30 or more. I thought I better be clearer on that part.

[BoBoDaClown]

My Diva build has only half the gear she needs for max DC, and they do still save sometimes. I had to equip a Greater Spell Focus: Enchant item to make it work at all at 36 CHA. Just got 38 CHA and still have to equip it. We'll see what happens at 40 and 42 CHA.

Interesting. WHat's your DC? 38? Once feat tokens go on sale I'm going to drop my spell focus enchant feats because I felt a DC of 40+ was a waste - this would leave me at 38+, have you found that not enough?

I tend to layer my disco balls with a mind fog (when I know the fight is coming up), which might grab the casters, but in all honestly I expect my ball to pick up the melees, and then I use Irresistible for the pesky casters.

[Irinis]

With 38 CHA, Greater Spell Focus: Enchant, Spellsong, and Staff of the Petitioner, 37 DC. They still save a bit more than I'd like. How are you getting 40+ DC?

[BoBoDaClown]

With 38 CHA, Greater Spell Focus: Enchant, Spellsong, and Staff of the Petitioner, 37 DC. They still save a bit more than I'd like. How are you getting 40+ DC?

Off the top of my head (and I don't usually do these calcs, so feel free to point out errors):

Cha:
18 Base
5 Level
9 Item (6+3)
4 Enhancements
3 Tome
2 Capstone
2 Yugo
---------
43
Situational Stuff:
+1 guild cha - use this frequently. Consider this reliable.
More Infrequently:
+1 -> +3 House D pots I tend to use the +1 pots (have heaps) when missing the guild buff to get me to 44. Only use the +2/+3s when needed/rarely/for fun.

So, normally running a 44 cha in a CC quest.

DC:
10 base
6 level
2 capstone
2 feats
2 weapon (spitter)
1 spellsong
17 cha bonus
------
40
Sometimes I grab a +1 guild enchant DC buff = 41.

Obviously missing key items (+7, +4tome, litany, +2 guild cha would be nice).

However, reason why I ask is I feel a DC of 40 is a little overkill. With my bard I tend to:
a) Heal in raids/epics. My Cha doesn't matter.
b) CC epics. Mobs rarely save (cept for high will ones of course).

So I was planning on dropping the two spell focus feats and my spell pen to pick up Empower Healing (to go with Maximise - yummy), and Power Attack and Improve Crit.

I was hoping this would make me a more rounded bard with very little CC sacrifice, but if you feel a DC of 37 (and note the difference between our DCs is basically buffs) isn't cutting it, then I'm a little hesitant about making the change.



p.s. Just looked up Staff of P - hmmmmmm yummy. That 10% sp discount stacks? I still haven't done abbot - really going to have to get onto that.