A little Talk about Rogues/multi classing/Skills/Solo

[Calebro]

I'm sorry. My mistake. You're obviously much more well versed in every possible style of play for every possible rogue build because of your 2 and a half months experience here.
I bow to your overwhelming wisdom.

[Kinesthetic]

I'm sorry. My mistake. You're obviously much more well versed in every possible style of play for every possible rogue build because of your 2 and a half months experience here.
I bow to your overwhelming wisdom.

Bahahaha and here comes the ad hominem.

DANCE PUPPET DANCE!

[Calebro]

Bahahaha and here comes the ad hominem.

DANCE PUPPET DANCE!

An ad hominem, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.[1] The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy.[2] The argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.

[Kinesthetic]

An ad hominem, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "to the man"), is an attempt to link the validity of a premise to a characteristic or belief of the person advocating the premise.[1] The ad hominem is a classic logical fallacy.[2] The argumentum ad hominem is not always fallacious, for in some instances questions of personal conduct, character, motives, etc., are legitimate and relevant to the issue.

Is that Wikipedia?

Please tell me it's not Wikipedia.

Been a while since I've had this much fun LOLOLOLOL!

[Calebro]

You're having so much fun because you're trolling.
Again I ask, why is it such a problem for certain people to let others play the way that they want?
Why do some people have a crusade against him building with Bluff and no Diplo?
What difference does it make to you that he spends ONE skill point per level in a different way than you want him to?

[Kinesthetic]

You're having so much fun because you're trolling.
Again I ask, why is it such a problem for certain people to let others play the way that they want?
Why do some people have a crusade against him building with Bluff and no Diplo?
What difference does it make to you that he spends ONE skill point per level in a different way than you want him to?

Wikipedia!

[Calebro]

Check your e-mail. I think you have a notification that there's an update to Gearscore.

[Kinesthetic]

Check your e-mail. I think you have a notification that there's an update to Gearscore.

What? But I've only played 2 and a half month! LOLOLOLOL!

[Aschbart]

I get tired when people tell me “switch out Bluff, Spots and get skill X or Y.”

I've yet to see whether or not bluff is helpful, but I already regret having neglected spot on my first two rogue-splash builds. I now have a clogue with just one level of rogue so far and I already *love* to be able to spot traps before I run into them and have an idea where to search for trap boxes, instead of repeatedly searching in the wrong places. Besides, there are so many hiden mobs, it is quite useful to spot these before they spot you.

The next problem I see in builds is too much “End Game Thinking”.

This term alone already annoys me. I've been playing for 10 months on and off and I now have ten characters at levels 6-14. Yes, not a single level 20, in fact far from it. I am an old time PnP player and I like the time I spend growing my character. To me this is a lot more satisfying than the idea of hanging around at max level, grinding the same content over and over to get better equipment. That is not the kind of game I'm looking for in a role playing game.

You will see a multi-class rogue’s character sheet boast max core rogue skill lvl20, but there’s a painful gap at lvl 2~6, or even 4~12. When they have sub-par core rogue party skill, again making them DPS toons, useless if a quest needs a rogue for hard traps or chest/doors.

I don't think these gaps are such a big issue, really. Most quests don't have very high DCs for traps and locks, and you can make up for some of the gaps with a good +skill item and a couple of skill boosting spells. As long as you keep Search on max, and Disable close to or also at max, you should be fine. And as stated above, if you can keep Spot close to max as well, you'd be even better

[shores11]

That's certainly...an opinion.

You claim to be annoyed when back-seat drivers tell you how to build your character and spend your skill points, so you promptly post here to tell other players how to spend their skill points? Seems a bit strange to me.

You interpret the OP's post as a presumption of telling others how to build their rogues. I do not see it that way, I see it as him informing us on how he does it not telling others how they should do it as well.

+1 for OP, I agree with your points.

[shores11]

Spot is good when you're new to a quest but even then there's always someone that knows where everything is.

Ouch, the bane of all poor rogues (in my opinion). "Hey everyone if you can tell me where the trap boxes are I'll search and disable them"

You can be an expert in all things rogue and still be one of the most deadly DPS charaters in DDO. All it requires is a little more play skill to handle your character the way rogues were intended by our D&D forefathers and founders.

I am offended when I am on my rogue (Harper) and players start jumping up like jumping beans or while I am in my search mode say the traps here (no ****, can't you see I'm searching). I am searching because I have already spotted it.

A Rogue's order of priorities in my OPINION:

1) Trapsmithing for the party
2) DPS
3) Scouting if needed

[Aschbart]

Solo. Skills. Multi-classing.

All these things are easily covered by keeping your skills balanced.

DD and Search: should always be max'd out.
OL: has some give but should be at 4 points.
UMD: should always be max'd out, once you can get high enough to UMD RR items of your level
Diplo: handy in a group situtation or to shuck agro onto a summoned pet, provided you have augment summoning, or you might not have bothered summoning it in the first place
Bluff: IMO this is a waste if you are gullible enough to believe that you're fine when you Get yourself Deception weapons: you'll have better results, by using bluff actively, especially with Improved THF
Spot: there is nothing wrong in keeping this skill max'd but most veterans who have done each quest 20+ times and know the location of each secret door, trap and trap box in their sleep don't.
Heal: Not a big fan of putting skill points into this
Repair: same as heal.

These are my thoughts about what a Rogue should really concern themselves with. But then I play my Rogue as a pure Tank.

I am, Rameses!

Corrections in green
Ok, haven't tried the bluff part myself just yet, just forwarding an impression from a THF rogue.

[Calebro]

Corrections in green
Ok, haven't tried the bluff part myself just yet, just forwarding an impression from a THF rogue.

And this, in a nutshell, is the exact problem that the OP started this thread over.
How on Earth can you claim to correct his thoughts?!?
No correction was needed.

[kamimitsu]

My take on skills:

These are roughly in order of preference.

• Search- Always MAX. If you can't find the box, you can't disable the trap.
  
• Disable Device - Always MAX. Friends don't let friends blow boxes.
  
• Open Lock - MAX unless skill point deprived. Currently, I know of no door or chest that has a high OL DC and is essential for quest completion (one could have argued Tear of Dhakaan Elite, but that's a non-issue now), so you can actually get away with just spending a handful of points and getting items here. However, updates are coming thick and fast, so I think future-proofing is warranted in this case.
  
• Use Magical Device - MAX (and grind for gear) until you can hit a no-fail Heal scroll. Wearing RR items is only the tip of the iceburg, no-fail Heal scroll is the business.
  
• Diplomacy - MAX unless you have a very unique build (roguebarian style). Avoiding aggro is important for your DPS. Diplo is a last restort, 'oh cr*p' button. Use sparingly.
  
• Spot - MAX if you stealth (bumping into hidden mobs is a sure way to end your stealth session). Also MAX if you are new to roguedom and/or dislike people jumping where the trap box is. If none of those conditions apply to you, you can drop it... but again, future-proofing against 'random trap' dungeons may be warranted. Monastery Elite really slows down if you have to check EVERY possible trap location.
  
• Hide - MAX if stealth is in your playstyle. I love stealth.
• Move Silently - Ditto.

Most rogues should be able to MAX all of the above, even with low INT. After that, decisions need to be made.

• Bluff - I've recently become a convert. Bluff is fantastic for pulling single mobs (not so much for the sneak attack it confers). If you solo much, this is a great skill to take.
  
• Balance - If going acrobat, it's not necessary (at endgame). Balance is helpful leveling up, but rogues should be fairly cognizant of aggro and position, so it's not a necessary skill. It's also worth putting a few points into, as it's not really an all or nothing situation.
  
• Tumble - Back when you could tumble through 'movement impairing' conditions (binding chains, slow, etc.) this skill was nice. Now, apart from use on the battlefield for breaking stealth and changing targets, it's just flash. Take a few ranks to open up the ability, but only devote full points if you like flippy moves or hate Feather Fall.
  
• Haggle - Nice to have if you don't already have a haggle toon. Personally, I'm too lazy to bother, but if you are just starting out, Plat might be an issue. You'll have to make a judgement call on this one.
  
• Jump - Getting over monsters and obstacles is a nice ability, but not nicer than most of the above. Not to mention that a friendly caster (or UMD ability) can give you a significant boost with the Jump spell.
  
• Listen - If you like some extra dungeon flavor, you can drop points here. But keep in mind that you are getting flavor when you could have had something useful.
  
• Swim - Swimming (so far) is such a minor concern that this skill is almost unnecessary. A guildie (and Crucible expert) told me that he finds the swim easier with LOW swim scores, as he has more time to get in position before the spikes get close. If the spell FLY is ever introduced to the game in earnest, Swim will be a far more attractive skill.
  
• Intimidate - If you need this skill, chances are you are building a very unique and specific build and have fully researched/considered all of the implications thereof. Otherwise, avoid like the plague.
  
• Heal - I'm not sure that this is a good choice on ANY build of any class.
  
• Repair - Ditto.
  
• Concentration - No thanks. Rogues are notoriously ADHD-ish. "So, there I was with my left hand on the pressure plate and my right hand on the door latch, tring to pick up the gem with my toes, when her FATHER walks in and... Oooooh! Unsecured coin purse at 3 o'clock!"
  
• Perform - Only if it added The Robot to my halfling breakdancing routine.

[Bodic]

One simple question so on those traps that are completely random of nature in placement your natural trap sense is going to save your arse uhm I think not. A Rogue has a grip of skill points the core ones are Disable device, Open Locks, Search, Spot, UMD, Balance at a bare minimum and that leaves a 8 int rog with choices to spend as they desire.

[shablala]

Why is it such a problem for you to let him play how he wants to? He obviously has a different playstyle than you do, and wants X, Y and Z in his build, while you're trying to tell him why A, B and C are better.
Well maybe they aren't better for HIM!

Maybe he'll eventually decide that you were correct, and that he wants A, B and C instead, but that isn't for you to decide.

It's just like in another thread where someone claimed to want a Finesse sneak attack focused trapmonkey DPS build, and someone came along and linked a pure Str based monk, claiming "You'll thank me later."
Ummmm...... no he probably won't, because that's not what HE WANTED!

Apparently you are one of those people who add no value to a thread. How in the freaking hell am I NOT letting him play how he wants? Am I sitting at his computer bashing him on the head every time he tries to roll a toon not to my liking? He can go roll a Rogue deepwood sniper pale master for all I care, no one here will stop him. And NO it is not "BETTER" for him to play a toon that will suffer. You my friend are actually doing him a disservice.

But, when someone starts a thread like the other one he did asking for advice or critique on a build, you bet your ass I will write what in "my opinion" is right, not what I think he wants to hear. Also when someone who knows nothing about a class and starts another thread like this one giving advice on how to play the class and how to build one and which feats, skills, enhancements are important and such, again, you bet your ass, I along with many others, will read it and quickly point out any HUGE flaws or misconceptions about the "advice" he is carelessly throwing out.

If you or the OP have no tolerance for other people's opinions, constructive criticism, and most importantly LOGIC, then why do you post on forums? Trolls in training?

[Calebro]

Apparently you are one of those people who add no value to a thread.

That's a funny thing to say considering I'm the only person that got a Thank You from the OP in that thread....

[shablala]

Reading comprehension FTW. I said "like another thread", meaning not that one.

The problem comes when people attempt to change the basic premise/concept of what the person wants because they think it's better.
Sure, it may be better for some, it may even be better for most, but you can't assume it's better for everyone. If someone requests a certain type of build that includes things that you don't think are effective, how can you say that they won't be effective in someone else's hands?

Bluff, which is the skill that started this all, has very few uses. No one is denying that. But claiming that it's useless only applies to the claimant's style. The OP wants Bluff for it's ability to pull single targets while running solo, rather than shooting something and pulling an entire room.
It's two different styles of play that require two different skill sets, so someone attempting to change his mind on Bluff only shows that this person doesn't understand what he wants from the build at all.
Since they don't understand what he wants, they try to change the concept entirely.

Like I said in the other thread, people are too busy trying to be heard that they stop listening.

His build had flaws, so attempt to rectify the errors instead of changing the concept to how you would play it.

The build I posted at the end of that thread: Would I play it? No.
Is it right for him? Hopefully.

Be a man and point the finger right at me and link the thread so everyone can see what you are talking about then decide if you are right or just a troll. I will do it for you...
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=268252

I think you are the one with the reading comprehension. No it is and wasnt(on the other thread) just about bluff. In fact in one of my posts I told him to KEEP bluff if he likes using it, but I guess you just trolled right passed it. Here are the other flaws in the build that I had every logical sense to criticize:
- Starting 8CON on a melee character. (disaster)
- blowing 4 feats on Toughness on an already feat starved class.
- blowing 2 feats on dragonmarks just to get the ability to DDoor
- 6monk/14rogue Ninja Spy to gain nothing of value and loose a ton of DPS
- Wanting to use shortswords and be centered, for badassness' sake (quoting him)
- Not considering more monk lvls to get ToD because he thinks his rogue skills will suffer and also doesnt want to save ki (ummmm whatever)
- Thinking a DC of 16 on unbalancing strike is sufficient
- Adept of the rain. (I guess cause a starting stat of 12STR was over the top, taking a str hit was no big deal)
- Etc...
Then he ends the post with:

Please give your input, the build is still In the works and still not sure if I rather pick up mechanic line later.

I will admit, it was a mistake on my part to was time giving advice to obviously one that didnt need it. I promise it wont happen again on any of his or your threads.

[Calebro]

I will admit, it was a mistake on my part to was time giving advice to obviously one that didnt need it. I promise it wont happen again on any of his or your threads.

Good. Thanks. Bye now.

[shablala]

That's a funny thing to say considering I'm the only person that got a Thank You from the OP in that thread....

Yea and an incompetent clueless politician also thanks all those who helped him take office. So what's your point?