This is RIDICULOUS

[wolflordnexus]

I ran Devils twice yesterday with three people, levels 15-17 I believe, to flag for Shroud and XP. I was on my spellsinger bard without much gear. My wife was on her Monk, and the third was a ranger on one run and a paladin on the other.(Both guildies) In both cases, he took about 1-2 minutes to kill. None of us had any particularly uber gear. Only one of the characters was a TR, and I don't know what he was using for weapons. No one else could have had a Greensteel weapon at all.

Based on the comments I've read, I want to point out a couple of things:

1. Three PCs and three Hirelings do not equal a full party. At best, 3 hirelings equal one very poor PC.
2. Telling you that you shouldn't expect to beat every quest the first time through doesn't mean a quest requires "endless repetition". You can make any statement seem silly by taking it to an extreme. Ex: "Fruit is good for you." "WHAT??? I can't eat nothing but fruit for the rest of my life!!!!"

If you are having trouble with a particular creature/quest/problem, the first response should not be to come on the forums and demand that it be made easier. Find the cause of the problem first, then determine what needs to be done. Accept that some things work better in some situations than others, some groups have a tougher time against some opponents, some weapons make killing particular mobs easier, etc. If you remove all challenges from the game, there won't be anything left except the grind.

The problem with this quest isn't that its to hard hell a decent build with a min2 eats the quest its that there are no other weapons in the game that bypass the DR. I went in my first time and was basically carried through by casters. Lamest quest ever I thought. Came out asked around hey what can I get to deal with the mobs in running with the devils. Was told I needed cold Iron + evil, of course I had never seen a weapon with these properties and was stupidly frustrated. No weapons are available to break dr on the mobs in this quest to my knowledge until after you have beaten it, and run several shrouds that is ridiculous. Call it the easy button or whatever you want to call it but get some evil weapons on the loot tables already. I have my min 2 now and the quest is cake but I was seriously not going to be carried through it twice, and of course my friends wanted to camp it. It's actually one of my favorite quests now that I'm you know an actual useful contributing member of the party.

[Visty]

The problem with this quest isn't that its to hard hell a decent build with a min2 eats the quest its that there are no other weapons in the game that bypass the DR. I went in my first time and was basically carried through by casters. Lamest quest ever I thought. Came out asked around hey what can I get to deal with the mobs in running with the devils. Was told I needed cold Iron + evil, of course I had never seen a weapon with these properties and was stupidly frustrated. No weapons are available to break dr on the mobs in this quest to my knowledge until after you have beaten it, and run several shrouds that is ridiculous. Call it the easy button or whatever you want to call it but get some evil weapons on the loot tables already. I have my min 2 now and the quest is cake but I was seriously not going to be carried through it twice, and of course my friends wanted to camp it. It's actually one of my favorite quests now that I'm you know an actual useful contributing member of the party.

get a metalline dream egde...metaline + aligned = all you need

[lightzz]

This thread has regressed into a cesspool of backbiting and foolishness and should be locked and deleted immediately.

It serves very little functional purpose other than to allow players to grief one another at this point.

If many of these posts are simply attempts at trolling, please /troll elsewhere... like ebaums

Man I knew Nazism had to show up here some time .... lol

[MarcusCleardawn]

All right, I want to lodge a complaint. Self-healing bosses need to be modded somehow. I had a full party (3 players, 3 hirelings, 2 hezrou AND AN EARTH ELEMENTAL) beating on that guy for HALF AN HOUR and we could NOT get him below 40% health. Every time he dropped below 50% he'd heal himself for 300+ points. He doesn't run out of SP. His stuff doesn't get damaged. HE doesn't have to make concentration checks. HE is immune to paralysis, blindness, instant death, energy drain, ANYTHING that would make it possible to take him down effectively.

Christ, just make it so that plain attrition can take down these bosses eventually. Have a gradually increasing cooldown on that heal. Have it occasionally fail to go off. SOMETHING. Infinite hp is just dumb.

Some thoughts:

In my experience, all of the self healing bosses are vulnerable to fire, so drop a maximized, extended, empowered fire wall, surround him and wait for him to cook.

I'm not sure about true rednamed bosses, but the paladin at the end of Devils can be tripped.

Hate to say it, but the only value I've found in hirelings is pulling levers and as a substitute to chugging pots between fights.

[shores11]

All right, I want to lodge a complaint. Self-healing bosses need to be modded somehow. I had a full party (3 players, 3 hirelings, 2 hezrou AND AN EARTH ELEMENTAL) beating on that guy for HALF AN HOUR and we could NOT get him below 40% health. Every time he dropped below 50% he'd heal himself for 300+ points. He doesn't run out of SP. His stuff doesn't get damaged. HE doesn't have to make concentration checks. HE is immune to paralysis, blindness, instant death, energy drain, ANYTHING that would make it possible to take him down effectively.

Christ, just make it so that plain attrition can take down these bosses eventually. Have a gradually increasing cooldown on that heal. Have it occasionally fail to go off. SOMETHING. Infinite hp is just dumb.

Let me get this right.

Instead of bringing your game up to the standard. You want to bring down the DDO game to your standards.

I hope the DDO developers don't listen to this request. Oh, I forgot just about every other gimping of the game request a player(s) has requested because things were just to hard has been implemented. So........you have a chance of getting this through.

I am still waiting for the easy click button on every dungeon's entry screen that has an option to complete quest right there, grant XP, grant loot. We can't be bothered with exploring or completing a quest.

[hecate355]

All right, I want to lodge a complaint. Self-healing bosses need to be modded somehow. I had a full party (3 players, 3 hirelings, 2 hezrou AND AN EARTH ELEMENTAL) beating on that guy for HALF AN HOUR and we could NOT get him below 40% health. Every time he dropped below 50% he'd heal himself for 300+ points. He doesn't run out of SP. His stuff doesn't get damaged. HE doesn't have to make concentration checks. HE is immune to paralysis, blindness, instant death, energy drain, ANYTHING that would make it possible to take him down effectively.

Christ, just make it so that plain attrition can take down these bosses eventually. Have a gradually increasing cooldown on that heal. Have it occasionally fail to go off. SOMETHING. Infinite hp is just dumb.

try real people, even average or below average of em are way better than any of those hezrous, elementals and whatsoever

i have had trouble trying to solo it on my melee capable fvs, i couldnt, yet i didnt come here to complain cause it only proves that clerics/fvs tend to be low dps, tried same with hireling cleric and dps fighter, and it worked just fine after i rolled few crits at right moment.

so its definitely not faulty by design, the quest

[Bloodstealer]

So you are thinking along the lines of "you must be at least this tall to access this content"...

The problem with that is that the player you are worried about messing up your raid isn't the guy who gets frustrated and waits a couple levels to try again, but the guy who pikes while someone else deals with it then comes to your raid with neither the knowledge, skills, nor equipment that were needed to get there.

Unfortunately u have hit the nail on the head - sometimes u just need to be that much bigger, whether it be levels, gear or experience and have that much more about you.

The game was not designed to be solo run from start to finish - this quest as has already been spat out several times now, was implemented when the toon cap rose to 16 - without all the nice tweaks, additives and lets face with a reduced choice of weaponery and spells. But hey presto even with less HP, fewer prestige lines and enhancements, lesser rated weapons etc etc we still managed it.
If you wanna try soloing the quest cos you can nowadays - or at least u think u can, then good luck to you... but when you find that cos u actually havent really tried the quest but... ur a die hard solist.. dont come back onto the forums winging its to tuff and u cant brk the guys DR or outkill his HP regen. Maybe cos ur not meant to in reality - hence grping with the correct balance of classes wins hands down.

If as you say you think someone is piking, then do summing about it. Even a grp with average DPS, a caster with firewall or a cleric with blades is no match for him, even if your melee toons are not getting full damage cos of his DR.

Then off course you get the other side of the solo coin - you may be lvl 20 or even TR'ed once or twice - does this make you uber beyond stopping - NO - you still need to have a decent idea of tactics, gear and yes ur skill and patience. If not then maybe go back to the drawing board and rethink your toon thro proporley.
This game is based around dice rolls and stats - if your stats dont match up, then no matter what the dice says you aint gunna be good enuff to solo everything. On the otherhand if you are sufficiently high enuff, with a decent build, have the gearing appropriate for the mobs and the experience to know how to handle the situation then solo questing this will be a walk in the park. Failure can only be measured by your own inadeqacy in this game - many others have done everything in this game without feeling the need to whine about it being too tuff.

Personally I think this game is being ruined by making things to darn easy to accomadate the 8yr olds and such that dont spend the time to learn the basics, understand quests or consider balancing their groups according to the quest needs. Their way is to simply come on here and vent their unhappiness that its too tuff, give me endless resources to help me or a nerf to overcome it like maybe in STK... ooh the flame room is way to hard can u put another trap box before the flames so we can run thro easy to the boss who by the way is too tuff as well can u knock out his DR so we dont need a tactic to overcome him.

Making the game so easy that you dont need to think is what reduces the lifespan of this game, because completion will be done so quickly that players will simply walk away and move onto another.

[theb]

try real people, even average or below average of em are way better than any of those hezrous, elementals and whatsoever

blasphemy it was AND AN EARTH ELEMENTAL don't you understand simple english

u may ask, what is AND AN EARTH ELEMENTAL? let me explain to you what that it is

...just the most awesome thing ever to have summoned to beat on stuff.

most awesome thing evar and if it couldn't solo the quest on ELITE that means the quest was BROKEN TURBINE pay attenshun to your customers and FIX MOB, FIX QUEST!!1

[tarikator]

I love Dungeons and Dragons. Always have and always will. However, DDO is a very poor implementation of the game I love. It is not bad, no, but the huge potential it has and not being used is very frustrating in my opinion.
I have played MMOs for the past 12 years (my first one was that very laggy, french "MANKIND" back in 1998) and the main I used to play was EVE (best mmo imo, only that it is a sci fi mmo and I need my fantasty fix as well lol).

DDO map extension is seriously limited. Even games like ASDA story (a hello kitty type of game, that actually was tons of fun playing just for laughs back in the day lol). Shaiya, (sorry fanboys) is still my favourite fantasy mmo! Why? Well, you get xp whenever you kill a mob, not just when you complete a quest. If you fail a quest in DDO you get almost no xp and none if you haven't even done the optionals (waste of time, and yeah, some of you will say you got experience. For the gamer who can't play ten hours per day, sorry, it is a waste).

Why am I playing DDO and not Shaiya? Well, shaiya's character items looks kinda suck There are no variety in armors for example and even if they do look cool, they all look the same for the same level armors. Same with the weapons, etc. However, when you put on a cape (cloak in DDO) you can see it, boots are individually shown on the toon, etc. DDO has fantastic variety which is awesome, however, boots, gloves, cloaks and bracers are not shown on your toon, no matter what you put on, and it all depends on your armor piece. Would also be nice to see from the armor piece itself what type of design/colours it has beforeyou actually put it on. Not a critical thing hey, but would be nice.

The bugs in this game are huge compared to every other game I have played. Just because the fanbase is ok with it, doesn't mean it doesn't have this huge amount of bugs.

The lag is the highest I have experienced in my mmo playing life. Don't even want to get started on the every morning lag which makes it nigh impossible to play for a lot of us.

Anyway, I really wish DDO could improve and make the game better for all its players. As prestorx said, I do think this game will not survive a long time without making some drastic changes in it. My main grief with this game? The constant grinding. It is boring, mind numbing and honestly puts me back so much it ain't funny. I wouldn't mind grinding wilderness areas if the mobs dropped the stuff to grind and also dropped real treasure and such. Calling collectible junk "treasure bag" is a joke and an insult in my humble opinion. First time I opened a treasure bag I was wow, goodie!! Loot! And then saw the garbage it had. Repeating over and over quests is not something that keeps your player base around for long. I have just played 4 months an average of 5 hours daily and am almost sickened with the game already. Especially with the shroud and vale. I haven't logged in to play for a few days now and I am not feeling like playing still. I am a premium player and have spent some cash on getting TP (have nothing against in game stores, I like them).

Wow, long text wall. I hope I am not judged based on just the first paragraph like someone did to someone else in the thread. If you want to judge my comment, at least do it after reading all of it :P

P.S. I really hope DDO shapes up soon.... I really hope....

[Visty]

Well, you get xp whenever you kill a mob, not just when you complete a quest. If you fail a quest in DDO you get almost no xp and none if you haven't even done the optionals (waste of time, and yeah, some of you will say you got experience. For the gamer who can't play ten hours per day, sorry, it is a waste).

theres a reason that they implemented it that way

Anyway, I really wish DDO could improve and make the game better for all its players. As prestorx said, I do think this game will not survive a long time without making some drastic changes in it. My main grief with this game? The constant grinding. It is boring, mind numbing and honestly puts me back so much it ain't funny. I wouldn't mind grinding wilderness areas if the mobs dropped the stuff to grind and also dropped real treasure and such. Calling collectible junk "treasure bag" is a joke and an insult in my humble opinion. First time I opened a treasure bag I was wow, goodie!! Loot! And then saw the garbage it had. Repeating over and over quests is not something that keeps your player base around for long. I have just played 4 months an average of 5 hours daily and am almost sickened with the game already. Especially with the shroud and vale. I haven't logged in to play for a few days now and I am not feeling like playing still. I am a premium player and have spent some cash on getting TP (have nothing against in game stores, I like them).
.

dont like the grind? dont do it

boy that was easy, wasnt it?

[tarikator]

.. ok, no grinding.. and guess what? No gaming either! One more player who leaves DDO, because without grinding your brain cells into dust, you can never get any of the cool gear and top stuff in the game. We all play role playing games to bring our toons higher and higher, for the customization of our toon (not much of that in DDO), and to be the best you can be. But DDO (and yours apparently) is to grind ad nauseam. Grinding is so bad in this game that they are being flat out being called time sinks in these forums. I have never seen such horrible time sinks in any game before. Not even in EVE that uses real time to learn new skills. And I played that game for over 3 years with two accounts....

Anyway, I am sure there is nothing I can say to change the minds or convince any of the fanboys, so I think I will just keep quiet from now on. Just remember, this game is everyone who plays it, not just the super duper uber vets from 4 years ago. You don't have to agree to what other people think, but you can't outright tell them to not do something if they don't like it. Because if I don't like it and my opinions arenot respected either, I will just quit playing. It is not like it is the only game out there you know. And you might not care if I quit the game, (why would you?) but if thousands like me quit, turbine and WB will unplug DDO and you will be left without your beloved game.
This is something I am seeing constantly in the forums, how old timers despise and just dismiss new players who have perfectly valid comments and complaints about the game, and how most of these new players arenot 8 year old noobs, but actually 40+ year olds who have played many mmos for over a decade and have come to DDO after it went FTP to check it out and give it a try.

Peace.

[Bloodstealer]

I love Dungeons and Dragons. Always have and always will. However, DDO is a very poor implementation of the game I love. It is not bad, no, but the huge potential it has and not being used is very frustrating in my opinion.
I have played MMOs for the past 12 years (my first one was that very laggy, french "MANKIND" back in 1998) and the main I used to play was EVE (best mmo imo, only that it is a sci fi mmo and I need my fantasty fix as well lol).

DDO map extension is seriously limited. Even games like ASDA story (a hello kitty type of game, that actually was tons of fun playing just for laughs back in the day lol). Shaiya, (sorry fanboys) is still my favourite fantasy mmo! Why? Well, you get xp whenever you kill a mob, not just when you complete a quest. If you fail a quest in DDO you get almost no xp and none if you haven't even done the optionals (waste of time, and yeah, some of you will say you got experience. For the gamer who can't play ten hours per day, sorry, it is a waste).

Why am I playing DDO and not Shaiya? Well, shaiya's character items looks kinda suck There are no variety in armors for example and even if they do look cool, they all look the same for the same level armors. Same with the weapons, etc. However, when you put on a cape (cloak in DDO) you can see it, boots are individually shown on the toon, etc. DDO has fantastic variety which is awesome, however, boots, gloves, cloaks and bracers are not shown on your toon, no matter what you put on, and it all depends on your armor piece. Would also be nice to see from the armor piece itself what type of design/colours it has beforeyou actually put it on. Not a critical thing hey, but would be nice.

The bugs in this game are huge compared to every other game I have played. Just because the fanbase is ok with it, doesn't mean it doesn't have this huge amount of bugs.

The lag is the highest I have experienced in my mmo playing life. Don't even want to get started on the every morning lag which makes it nigh impossible to play for a lot of us.

Anyway, I really wish DDO could improve and make the game better for all its players. As prestorx said, I do think this game will not survive a long time without making some drastic changes in it. My main grief with this game? The constant grinding. It is boring, mind numbing and honestly puts me back so much it ain't funny. I wouldn't mind grinding wilderness areas if the mobs dropped the stuff to grind and also dropped real treasure and such. Calling collectible junk "treasure bag" is a joke and an insult in my humble opinion. First time I opened a treasure bag I was wow, goodie!! Loot! And then saw the garbage it had. Repeating over and over quests is not something that keeps your player base around for long. I have just played 4 months an average of 5 hours daily and am almost sickened with the game already. Especially with the shroud and vale. I haven't logged in to play for a few days now and I am not feeling like playing still. I am a premium player and have spent some cash on getting TP (have nothing against in game stores, I like them).

Wow, long text wall. I hope I am not judged based on just the first paragraph like someone did to someone else in the thread. If you want to judge my comment, at least do it after reading all of it :P

P.S. I really hope DDO shapes up soon.... I really hope....

Firstly why are you bothering to grind explorers anyway - the collectables are what the game brought in many, many moons ago to allow new / low level toons to generate a small form of income by exchanging them for pots, items etc which u either kept or sold. If your grinding them to get these still then sadly you have missed the boat home.

Secondly its your choice whether you go P2P or F2P. Unfortunatley if you choose the latter then you have to put some time and effort in, in which to earn the right to earn points in which to unlock more content, so yes a fair degree of grinding is required (until you have all the packs and upgrades) - that grind is your choice no one elses.

Thirdly some things in any game have to be earned - XP is in fact a grind to level your toons - so why not take that away and we all start at lvl 20???. If you want to chase a rainbow then you need to jump on the rainbows tail and run with it - grinding for your Greensteels or your Tod boots or DT armour is the rainbow - if u want it then jump on the tail and get running. If you dont want it then move on and do something else - your choice again.

Lastly - every game has a grind of some sort, otherwise you start off with it all - go kill all - end of game - then what???

Re Lag - I play this from the UK and have had this argument on the EU forums many times over - I dont get any lag, maybe used to get a little DPS lag in Shroud or TOD but really not much to be overly concerned about. My latency is about 20ms worse than when I was playing on the EU servers and it makes next to no difference to me. However I know others get worse Lag - but then its a popular game played by many players globally. I dont think even Turbine could foresee how popular F2P has made the game, so catching up with the population demand will take some time (and nerfs apparently... err i hate that TWF nerf ) but you already have one new server, im sure that issue will be looked at further as more content comes into the game and if F2P keeps bringing in more players.

Re Bugs - dont think I have played an MMO that didnt have bugs and many are much worse -AOC springs to mind - many of the bugs in this game are so miniscual its hardly worth worrying about, others yes need to be sorted - but its a huge game and I am sure complex in its make up. So to just fix a bug may not be so easy as that portion of data around that bug may also then have a cascade effect on other areas of the game so it takes time. But yes in some of this I agree, some bugs have been existing in this game a long time, which yes can be a pain.

Re character looks / equipemt etc - hmmm seems a bit silly to say you think is makes the game poor - I mean PNP you only saw your own scrib sheets with numbers written down - but guess what it looks like toon pimping is slowly coming into the game cos after all pimping your toons is a revenue stream. But I agree that some of the basic things we have with toons like cloaks etc shud be made visable like a helm (or not if u wish), maybe even able to customise these like guild emblems etc. but its purely a gimmck nothing more - shud this really be a solid basis on which to cry out your dislike of the game ?

* - * Hmmm your opening line says you love DDO but then to finish off you say your sickened with the game and dont wanna even log in - well which is it to be play or leave - yep guess what you have another choice to make here dont you!

[Visty]

.. ok, no grinding.. and guess what? No gaming either! One more player who leaves DDO, because without grinding your brain cells into dust, you can never get any of the cool gear and top stuff in the game. We all play role playing games to bring our toons higher and higher, for the customization of our toon (not much of that in DDO), and to be the best you can be. But DDO (and yours apparently) is to grind ad nauseam. Grinding is so bad in this game that they are being flat out being called time sinks in these forums. I have never seen such horrible time sinks in any game before. Not even in EVE that uses real time to learn new skills. And I played that game for over 3 years with two accounts....

Anyway, I am sure there is nothing I can say to change the minds or convince any of the fanboys, so I think I will just keep quiet from now on. Just remember, this game is everyone who plays it, not just the super duper uber vets from 4 years ago. You don't have to agree to what other people think, but you can't outright tell them to not do something if they don't like it. Because if I don't like it and my opinions arenot respected either, I will just quit playing. It is not like it is the only game out there you know. And you might not care if I quit the game, (why would you?) but if thousands like me quit, turbine and WB will unplug DDO and you will be left without your beloved game.
This is something I am seeing constantly in the forums, how old timers despise and just dismiss new players who have perfectly valid comments and complaints about the game, and how most of these new players arenot 8 year old noobs, but actually 40+ year olds who have played many mmos for over a decade and have come to DDO after it went FTP to check it out and give it a try.

Peace.

so you mean you dont get everything handed to you just by logging in????

blasphemy, how could that ever be

dont let the door hit you on the way out

[systemstate]

Haha, six pages of posts in and the OP hasn't replied once.

[oweieie]

I think most of you are missing the point.

Personal anecdotes (I've beaten it solo, etc.) don't mean jack when it comes to the design of a quest. It is all statistics, ie. what percentage abandon it vs. complete it, what percentage abandon it after X minutes, etc. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in Turbine to see how well this quest does vs. other quests of the same level. I'd bet hard dollars that they see a significant abandonment rate and that most of those that abandon the quest do so right at the end.

You'll never get your abandonment rate down to zero, but you don't want it too high, either, or you drive people away from the quest (and the game if you have too many quests like this).

That stat of note is that devils is by far the most run quest in vale because it's easy, gives good XP and is MUCH faster than the other quests. TRs bottom out the XP on that one with door farming all the time, the other quests aren't so commonly run.

[lekkus]

I don't know why you're posting this Visty because even your post could be reported

"While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to: Name-calling or other insults."

thanks for the neg rep Visty

That stat of note is that devils is by far the most run quest in vale because it's easy, gives good XP and is MUCH faster than the other quests. TRs bottom out the XP on that one with door farming all the time, the other quests aren't so commonly run.

yup, they are quick runs that take less than 15 min, until you do it on elite. The trash is just as easy as normal/hard and then you hit a big wall.

[William_the_Bat]

That stat of note is that devils is by far the most run quest in vale because it's easy, gives good XP and is MUCH faster than the other quests. TRs bottom out the XP on that one with door farming all the time, the other quests aren't so commonly run.

It's easy... if you have a min II, or are a caster.

Otherwise it's frustrating.

Admittedly, some quests you just need the right tool for the job, but don't make the mistake of thinking just because your sorc can firewall the guy to death every time means that this challenge is -fun- for "differently abled" characters.

My problem isn't that this boss is hard, my problem is that he's either "easy" or "impossible" depending on having the right party.

Imagine the complaining on the forums if a non-raid quest -required- a lockpicker to complete. Then imagine some guy telling everyone to shut up and grind out some TP for a bell of opening, and some other guy saying it's an easy quest on his rogue.

[Bloodstealer]

thanks for the neg rep Visty

yup, they are quick runs that take less than 15 min, until you do it on elite. The trash is just as easy as normal/hard and then you hit a big wall.

-----

Eeek is this Leking from BDS guild on EU servers???
Well...
If it is - ur toons normally hit brick walls... normally starting in Korthos, im suprised you even make it to the Vale

If this isnt Leking then just ignore this

[Khanyth]

Which boss was so tough?

Did we ever find out?

[Visty]

thanks for the neg rep Visty

wasnt me
even said in the following post that i could care less if you have reported it or not

if i still can today, ill + you to make up for it

there ya go, 2nd green box