This is RIDICULOUS

[lekkus]

considering my post falls into none of the categories i have to ask: did you report me?

not that i would care, just want to know

lol no of course not but just that I had warnings myself for calling someone out in the same way

[Hydro]

Yay I got neg rep for my post way at the beggining!

I love Neg Rep, it means that I ****ed someone off enough that they felt they needed to tattle on me.

Lol the fun part is not only does it really not matter but I get to report that neg rep and it will probably get removed and the repper gets in trouble.

So neg rep on all you are going to do is getself banned!

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

Yay I got neg rep for my post way at the beggining!

I love Neg Rep, it means that I ****ed someone off enough that they felt they needed to tattle on me.

Lol the fun part is not only does it really not matter but I get to report that neg rep and it will probably get removed and the repper gets in trouble.

So neg rep on all you are going to do is getself banned!

What fantasy world are you living in? Reporting that you got neg rep expecting them to get banned.

That's just about the craziest thing I've seen posted on these boards.

[Bloodstealer]

[QUOTE=prestorx - Okay this is last post then I'm done wasting my time on this thread.


-----

eeekkk - was gunna quote the whole of your essay but remembered that the cube would probably eat mine with yours if I did
But.... Someone's got a bad case of the "I wish I cud do better, but how??" thing going on here.

Bottom line Prestorx is if you think its such a grind and not enjoyable, thats its not a successful game and all that bullomey then why stick around and play. Your obviously suffering everytime you log in - go play one of your arcade games.. i personally recommend pac-man... hmm wait running round eating dots i suppose cud be considered a grind.

I think what you fail to actaully realise is that most games, whether they are online, offline, arcade, platform w/e - are all just a grind.. high score grind, xp, plat, renown, favor, dots, fruit.... etc etc - ur just grinding something to achieve something else - DDO has had to move with the times globally and made a decision to support its product by introducing something that opened the game up to a wider community, and all indications seem to say they have got it right - not 100% but its got a hook.

Noone forces anyone to play the game, noone forces anyone to pay vip or buy TP's - everyone can do as they wish - if the grind is not for you or them - as i said, why stick around.

This thread was about someone failing to kill a relatively simple boss in a relatively simple quest, to gain their chees for flag or ingredient for GS blank - none actually wanted the VIP vs F2P vc succusses vs grind post with your added flavour of colourful, childish language.

[The-Last-Wolf]

I sometimes wonder when reading negative posts whether I am somehow playing a totally different game to the one the posters are.

As far as my experience has been, DDO has no requirement for "Grinding". You only grind if you choose to.

My current character has levelled up so fast, I have missed a ton of content. I'm at 17th and pretty much missed all of Gianthold, never touched Threnal, 3BC or Sorrowdusk. I have run Delara's 3 times, ADQ once, Vons twice, etc. etc. I am looking forward to 20th, so I can TR and then run some of the stuff I missed on the way up.

There is a plethora of gear, builds, options available that require no grinding at all. The AH makes getting hold of good to have/essential to own items you don't personally pull from chests easy (+6 stat items, hvy fort, False life, potency etc.). The Store provides even more choice if you wish to invest in your hobby a little more.

You only NEED to grind this game if you WANT to have the best possible build/gear character out there (I believe the term is uber l33t but don't quote me as I don't fully speak MMO yet). Please note, I have no issue with anyone who wishes to do that, it's their game and their fun

prestorx also seems to have missed a category for me (and strangely the majority of people I have met in game). That would be the ones who are generally happy, play without issue, pug without issue, occasionally shrug off the bad experience as learning curve. We occasionally moan about bad pugs, players, behaviour because we are human and sometimes need to let off some steam, but on the whole, we see this as purely a game/pastime/hobby.

As to the OP, I agree, it can be a tad soul destroying to get all the way through a quest to find you don't have the right tools (be that gear, spells, party, hireling, pots, twitch skills, tactics, etc.) to take down the final bad guy(s). Is that a bad thing? My personal opinion is no. I think it raises the bar, and provides a challenge to find the right tools to get the job done. This doesn't in my opinion require a "massive grindfest" and I don't believe anyone who knows this game would (or did) suggest so. Good luck on your next run.

Regards
Wolf

[Khanyth]

did we find out which quest/boss/whatever that was so ridiculous?

[sephiroth1084]

Yay I got neg rep for my post way at the beggining!

I love Neg Rep, it means that I ****ed someone off enough that they felt they needed to tattle on me.

Lol the fun part is not only does it really not matter but I get to report that neg rep and it will probably get removed and the repper gets in trouble.

So neg rep on all you are going to do is getself banned!

I almost want to give you neg rep just so you can get giddy over this silliness, but sadly I gave you pos rep on your monk post. Oh well, guess I'll have to neg you some other time.

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

I almost want to give you neg rep just so you can get giddy over this silliness, but sadly I gave you pos rep on your monk post. Oh well, guess I'll have to neg you some other time.

No kidding.. I've hit my limit for past 24 hrs.. but I'll be back tomorrow to hit that one!

[William_the_Bat]

Why is it a simple (if silly) rant about self-healing bosses becomes some huge "easy button" vs "elite no-life grinder" debate?

The problem with these particular types of bosses isn't that they are "hard", but that there is no way to kill them unless your DPS > some arbitrary X.

A "hard" boss is one that can and will kill off player characters. An annoying boss is one that can't hurt you, but you can't hurt it either.

If you go to a sporting event, and it ends in a tie, how do you feel? A little frustrated?

I'm all for "hard" bosses. If a boss kills you, you come back again, hopefully with better foreknowledge and strategy. If a boss fight ends in a stalemate, you don't come back. What's the point?

[7-day_Trial_Monkey]

If a boss fight ends in a stalemate, you don't come back. What's the point?

That's a very weird decision to make. You don't see any use in coming back with a firewaller if you didn't have one? Coming back with weps that can break dr if you didn't have one? Coming back with a greater bane to overcome the dr if you didn't have one? Coming back with a different party makeup to increase overall dps? Coming back after you gain another level or with an lfm with 1 or 2 higher level top end level?

Seriously, never come back is all you can come up with?

[William_the_Bat]

Maybe I should have listed all the circumstances under which you might come back.

1. you find someone(s) who can kill it for you
2. you wait until you are more powerful

But if you are a solo-monkey, or in a static group, or just plain frustrated after spending an hour trying different tactics to kill something that just isn't going to die without numbers 1 or 2, then it may be a while.

Yes, there are people who will see the self-healing boss as a challenge. There are also those who will see it as needlessly frustrating.

Your mileage may vary.

[CaseStringer]

... and you're not Shroud-ready, You'll be back again.
Or, NO GREENSTEEL for YOU!

[Vordax]

If a boss fight ends in a stalemate, you don't come back. What's the point?

Is this how you play all games? If you can't beat a boss in Dragon Age, or a scenario is Starcraft 2, etc the first time, do you give up? Or do you try to improve your character or your strategy and try it again at some later point?

Vordax

[theb]

Why is it a simple (if silly) rant about self-healing bosses becomes some huge "easy button" vs "elite no-life grinder" debate?

Because that quest is easy as **** on casual. If you survived the trip to the quest entrance you can beat it on casual unless you get a lobotomy some time during the quest. Anyone complaining casual is too easy and normal is too hard is a ****ing Goldilocks. People in this thread even advocated scaling down elite bosses to never be too much harder than their minions. That's selfishly trying to remove the challenge others enjoy so that their easy mission is no longer labeled "casual" but is instead labeled "elite". They want to **** up the game for others so that they can say they are beating DDO on elite, even though what they want elite to be is just as hard as normal is now, and they don't want to feel ******** because they can only beat it on a difficulty labeled "casual" so they want to make normal as easy as casual is now.

The problem with these particular types of bosses isn't that they are "hard", but that there is no way to kill them unless your DPS > some arbitrary X.

The problem with you is that that's the only way you can think of to beat these bosses when strategy and tactics go a lot farther.

A "hard" boss is one that can and will kill off player characters. An annoying boss is one that can't hurt you, but you can't hurt it either.

On normal difficulty, you get infinite shrine use. If this thread only mentioned retarding normal difficulty, that would be bad enough, since you rightly need favor to enter the Shroud, meaning you had to have at least piked through groups doing Vale quests on normal or Amrath, so you got to see what a successful group looks like. However, people who think normal is too hard are talking about changing hard and elite, which is absolutely mean spirited or selfish and is disgusting either way.

If you go to a sporting event, and it ends in a tie, how do you feel? A little frustrated?

You go to a "sporting event". You know it's fixed so that the home team wins. The home team wins, how do you feel?

[Bloodstealer]

Why is it a simple (if silly) rant about self-healing bosses becomes some huge "easy button" vs "elite no-life grinder" debate?

The problem with these particular types of bosses isn't that they are "hard", but that there is no way to kill them unless your DPS > some arbitrary X.

A "hard" boss is one that can and will kill off player characters. An annoying boss is one that can't hurt you, but you can't hurt it either.

If you go to a sporting event, and it ends in a tie, how do you feel? A little frustrated?

I'm all for "hard" bosses. If a boss kills you, you come back again, hopefully with better foreknowledge and strategy. If a boss fight ends in a stalemate, you don't come back. What's the point?

So if I understand you.. because you can't be bothered to try to beat the challenge of such a quest you decide what the heck im outta here and wont be coming back (at least for some time to come)... well ok your decision, but then you run off and try other even harder quest lets say in Amrath and low and behold you have the same issues there fighting bosses, so you apply your same strategy.
At this point u have neither flagged for shroud or TOD, you have not been able to build a GS weapon or some boots so you run off and grind all the easier quests over and over then come on here complaining the game becomes a grind fest, quests a re too hard, nerf the bosses, lower the quest difficulty oh and my personal favorite - how are players supposed to get to do some raids without BB's if its our first time runs and have no GS weapons or other BB's - well if you had taken the time in the first place to learn the quests previoulsy instead of quiting them and moving backwards you would.
Unfortunatley you display a very defeatist attitude so maybe this game is not for players like you.
Also a final note - as this game was designed predominantly with the group ethic not solo, then if you wanna go into a higher lvl quest with a couple of hireling and some rock cakes then expect to be separated from your arms and legs unless you have geared yourself up properly, know the correct tactics and have the necessasry skills in the game otherwise I would sticking to harbour quests a bit longer.

[William_the_Bat]

How does infinite shrine use help kill a boss that heals faster than you can DPS it on a melee?

Is there a strategy change that makes this completable that does not start with "bring a (insert class here)"

I've attempted to solo devils on normal on a level 15 KOTC TWF khopesh pally. (TR even) The problem isn't running out of resources, be it SP or HP or smite evils (hint: the boss in question is not evil!) the problem is the boss heals before he's even close to being dead, and can do so indefinitely. Even though there's very little danger to my character, it's impossible to finish off this one self-healing boss.

Sure, I can come back with someone(s) to kill him for me, but that's not really the point.

Since I don't have min IIs, there's not much I can do to beat this guy's DR until I grind the heck out of the shroud first, and of course I can't grind the shroud at all until I get the pie piece from Devils. I can't even buy an appropriate weapon on the AH, because you can't get cold iron + evil that way.

The only option is to gang up on the guy, if not just getting someone who can kill him for you.

Ganging up on him is all good and well, but if you are a die-hard soloist, or in a static group already attempting to gang up on him (complete with EARTH ELEMENTAL!), you may be running out of options.

I understand the desire to not "dumb down" the game. There needs to be challenges or what's the point? My contention is that of the various types of challenges, we should encourage "fun" challenges and minimize "unfun" challenges. It might technically be a challenge to, say, repeat misery's peak 1000 times for bragging rights, but few people would call that a "fun" challenge.

And of course we can always look back the the PnP DnD roots. A live DM would note the stalemate, and change something about the encounter to end the stalemate, either in the player's favor or against them, or just to shake things up a bit. DDO's AI, on the other hand, is too dumb to do anything as sophisticated as have the boss run out of spell points after 45 minutes of constant heals, let alone have the lawful good and intelligent boss start a conversation with his attacker about ending the stalemate in a civilized fashion.

[William_the_Bat]

...unless you have geared yourself up properly, know the correct tactics and have the necessasry skills in the game otherwise I would sticking to harbour quests a bit longer.

So you are thinking along the lines of "you must be at least this tall to access this content"...

The problem with that is that the player you are worried about messing up your raid isn't the guy who gets frustrated and waits a couple levels to try again, but the guy who pikes while someone else deals with it then comes to your raid with neither the knowledge, skills, nor equipment that were needed to get there.

[lightzz]

All right, I want to lodge a complaint. Self-healing bosses need to be modded somehow. I had a full party (3 players, 3 hirelings, 2 hezrou AND AN EARTH ELEMENTAL) beating on that guy for HALF AN HOUR and we could NOT get him below 40% health. Every time he dropped below 50% he'd heal himself for 300+ points. He doesn't run out of SP. His stuff doesn't get damaged. HE doesn't have to make concentration checks. HE is immune to paralysis, blindness, instant death, energy drain, ANYTHING that would make it possible to take him down effectively.

Christ, just make it so that plain attrition can take down these bosses eventually. Have a gradually increasing cooldown on that heal. Have it occasionally fail to go off. SOMETHING. Infinite hp is just dumb.

Yeah I agree this game is just a big Wal-Mart... Basically it feeds a large mass, and doesn’t care about specific things because it can ..... shower a problem with a ton of people that say "I like the way it is".... There are a ton of people that do not see things the way you do so they all crawl and pull you down into their fake world of "its okay" and man if you complain about **** I notice there are these people that come around that work their best not to eliminate a problem, but to stop you from complaining about it. hmmmm.... that sounds like a place I know...

But any way it is easier to stop you from complaining about a obvious problem, than for them to correct it....

I mean think about it if they corrected that problem how many children that don’t know about super fake situations would continue to pay and play...

All things run into the same problem eventually ... **** what are we going to do to many people are waking up...


It is kind of like the old quote " There was a king that walked around naked all the time but he told all his subjects that he had cloths on... So every one went around saying look at the emperors new cloths, at first every one would be in shock and think "what the heck is going on” but because they were under suppression they would just agree and go along.

So the emperor was actually wearing cloths because every was pressured into believing it....


So there is nothing wrong with the game its is not broken on many different levels ...lol

You just are not seeing the game the right way....



You don’t want to sell me death sticks.....

[gaki]

I think most of you are missing the point.

Personal anecdotes (I've beaten it solo, etc.) don't mean jack when it comes to the design of a quest. It is all statistics, ie. what percentage abandon it vs. complete it, what percentage abandon it after X minutes, etc. I'd love to be a fly on the wall in Turbine to see how well this quest does vs. other quests of the same level. I'd bet hard dollars that they see a significant abandonment rate and that most of those that abandon the quest do so right at the end.

You'll never get your abandonment rate down to zero, but you don't want it too high, either, or you drive people away from the quest (and the game if you have too many quests like this).

[Xeraphim]

This thread has regressed into a cesspool of backbiting and foolishness and should be locked and deleted immediately.

It serves very little functional purpose other than to allow players to grief one another at this point.

If many of these posts are simply attempts at trolling, please /troll elsewhere... like ebaums