D Door nerf?? Can anyone confirm

[Borror0]

Mobs cross webs 100% of the time, not conditionally. That's poor AI.
Firewall is no different in relation to the AI. Its simply dumb AI.
Both combo's are relying on the dumb AI.
Therefore they are identical.

"An elephant and the moon are both pretty heavy therefore they are identical." -Zaodan

[vVAnjilaVv]

"An elephant and the moon are both pretty heavy therefore they are identical." -Zaodan

What's the idea?...... making me spit out my tea!!!!!

[timewalker]

This will make casters actually learn how to survive and also not spam their spells all over the place. It will also compel even more people to make WF'ed casters

and forcing more people into the WF mold is good for the game how exactly.

i tend not to like min/maxed "forum approved" builds myself, do not get me wrong my casters have 14 con to start + all the gear and enhacements and toughness....i try for good hit points, but sometimes death happens.

but you are right about spell spamming, why use 200 sp when 73 will do


as to WF, i may be a little old school in this reguard....yes i know this is ebberon so dont take this personally.

/personal prefrence on
but for me WF are not D&D
/personal prefrence off

[Thrudh]

Firewall + DDoor is a tactic.
Web + Acid Blast is a tactic.

Firewall+DDoor is an exploit because you can kill monsters with zero danger to yourself...

Using a "safe-spot" is also an exploit... You may not get banned over it, but it is an exploit, and usually fixed by the devs sooner or later.

Firewall+DDoor is actually much worse than a "safe-spot" because you can do it over and over in many different rooms... It's a "safe-spot" you can create for yourself.

It's an exploit.

[Zaodan]

Zaodan, I think you're missing one important step there:

The enemies have a chance to break out of a Web.

They can't move (due to AI, engine design, whatever) if you've gone really far away all of a sudden.

So damage inside a web, yes tactic. But they can break free and attack you still (get out of the way and do damage). There is no chance of that happening with the DD Wall of Fire method. Hence...

J1NG

To quote The Emperor, "It is you who are mistaken... about a great, many things."

Ok, not a great many things, but one thing. And that is the fact that the monsters stand in the firewall after the caster has DDoor'd is yet another AI problem, no different than the AI problem of standing in firewalls in general, and no different than the AI problem of running directly into webs.

An AI problem, is an AI problem, is an AI problem.

And none of them constitute a DDO-terms-of-use-defined exploit. Yet, all of them give you, the player, an advantage in combat. Therefore, they are the same, conceptually (noting, as I did already that they are different due to them being different spells, and having different effects.)

I am saying they are identical ... whats the word... "ethically".

[vVAnjilaVv]

and forcing more people into the WF mold is good for the game how exactly.

It was a joke...hence the smiley face...lighten up huh....I'm sure you will still be able to play the game without "cheating" somehow.

[vVAnjilaVv]

and forcing more people into the WF mold is good for the game how exactly.

i tend not to like min/maxed "forum approved" builds myself, do not get me wrong my casters have 14 con to start + all the gear and enhacements and toughness....i try for good hit points, but sometimes death happens.

but you are right about spell spamming, why use 200 sp when 73 will do


as to WF, i may be a little old school in this reguard....yes i know this is ebberon so dont take this personally.

/personal prefrence on
but for me WF are not D&D
/personal prefrence off

Even WF'ed die, this just comes down to someone knowing what they are doing and knowing their limitations.

As for the personal preference comment.......WF are not D&D...well neither is a large portion of this game.

[Eladiun]

"An elephant and the moon are both pretty heavy therefore they are identical." -Zaodan

[arminius]

Personally I love this change, I hate playing with squishy casters that lay down an aoe or something similar, get a ton of aggro, get killed in two seconds and think there work is complete. I couldn't agree less with the caster being expected to lead the death count, to me that is just a substandard caster to begin with.

This will make casters actually learn how to survive and also not spam their spells all over the place. It will also compel even more people to make WF'ed casters

The DDoor disappearing as soon as the caster has gone thru it is lame tho, when I put up a ddoor I am not gonna wait for the rest of the party to get it together and go thru before I do, it will lead to my death waiting for them to get in a few last good swings.

I'm not talking about not managing aggro--that the caster manages his aggro is assumed. A caster who can't isn't helping the group at all. I'm talking about casters who help groups, therefore their general survivablity is assumed.

There is hardly a moment in a caster's day that isn't extremely risky. They have no AC, marginal reflex saves, and even the most brutish have fewer hitpoints than the average specimens of the other classes.

Just think about what it takes to cast Otto's Irresistable Dance--one of the most reliable spells at higher levels. You have to get right up in their teeth; for all practical purposes it may as well be a Touch spell. All it takes at touch range is one failed Trip, and you can be toast in 2 seconds, even fully displaced and stoneskinned and heavy forted and max con-ed and max balanced. But you do it nonetheless, because landing that Dance saves your Cleric, saves your Tank, saves your Rogue, saves everybody.

If all the walls and fogs and webs and balls I've cast around the room will disappear on my death, am I going to hesitate to get up in a devil's nuts to dance him? Yes, you bet I will. I'd be serving the party better by going into a corner and going afk.

[J1NG]

To quote The Emperor, "It is you who are mistaken... about a great, many things."

Ok, not a great many things, but one thing. And that is the fact that the monsters stand in the firewall after the caster has DDoor'd is yet another AI problem, no different than the AI problem of standing in firewalls in general, and no different than the AI problem of running directly into webs.

An AI problem, is an AI problem, is an AI problem.

And none of them constitute a DDO-terms-of-use-defined exploit. Yet, all of them give you, the player, an advantage in combat. Therefore, they are the same, conceptually (noting, as I did already that they are different due to them being different spells, and having different effects.)

I am saying they are identical ... whats the word... "ethically".

Is it an advantage? Yes.

Is it exploitative? That is, an exploit? Yes. Why? Because you can't do the same. If an enemy DD or teleports out and leaves you in a Wall of Fire, or Inferno, and you don't move. Fine. It's not an exploit, since both sides can do it.

It's clearly not the case here.

It's like saying I can commit any crime I like as an Ambassador on your soil as I'm protected by "Diplomatic Immunity". But you clearly can't as you're not under that "rule" (rule of being a player and not an AI). But we all know that's just another word for "exploit".

J1NG

[timewalker]

It was a joke...hence the smiley face...lighten up huh....I'm sure you will still be able to play the game without "cheating" somehow.

/perception check

roll 1 ...-12 = -11 FAILURE

sense joke FAILED/

sorry about that, i just get tired of hearing how i should play my casters WF.

and dont get me wrong im happy to see the exploity fw/dd go bye-bye, but im not happy with casters getting even more pidgonholed

[Missing_Minds]

To quote The Emperor, "It is you who are mistaken... about a great, many things."

The Emperor also has new clothes.

[Eladiun]

.:snip:.
If all the walls and fogs and webs and balls I've cast around the room will disappear on my death, am I going to hesitate to get up in a devil's nuts to dance him? Yes, you bet I will. I'd be serving the party better by going into a corner and going afk.

Well stated...

[Eladrin]

The lingering spell changes are intended to do several things:

Reward skilled gameplay
Dropping a maximized wall of fire and then dying in a second and a half isn't the optimal type of gameplay that we want to encourage. Nor is dropping a lingering AOE damage spell and then teleporting back to the dungeon entrance.

Casters that carefully choose when and where to cast their spells and work with their group should be rewarded. Losing lingering AOE's on death gives a strong incentive to stay alive.

Make monsters that use lingering spell effects less obnoxious to fight
How often have you cursed at a Sleet Storm that a monster left behind as a parting gift, a Blade Barrier, or even an Obscuring Mist in the waterworks? They all go away now on death.

Get more Aliens quotes into Voice Chat
Dimension Door has a several second pause before dissipating, but the caster will generally want to be the last one through, and has to live long enough for everyone to use it. This makes the "evac" a much more tactical choice, and puts some serious pressure on the rest of the group when your Wizard yells "Marines, we are LEAVING!"

[Eladiun]

Get more Aliens quotes into Voice Chat
Dimension Door has a several second pause before dissipating, but the caster will generally want to be the last one through, and has to live long enough for everyone to use it. This makes the "evac" a much more tactical choice, and puts some serious pressure on the rest of the group when your Wizard yells "Marines, we are LEAVING!"

I refuse... I will only use "Get to the Choppa!!!!"

Thanks for the feedback.

[Thrudh]

To quote The Emperor, "It is you who are mistaken... about a great, many things."

Ok, not a great many things, but one thing. And that is the fact that the monsters stand in the firewall after the caster has DDoor'd is yet another AI problem, no different than the AI problem of standing in firewalls in general, and no different than the AI problem of running directly into webs.

An AI problem, is an AI problem, is an AI problem.

And none of them constitute a DDO-terms-of-use-defined exploit. Yet, all of them give you, the player, an advantage in combat. Therefore, they are the same, conceptually (noting, as I did already that they are different due to them being different spells, and having different effects.)

I am saying they are identical ... whats the word... "ethically".

No, you're wrong... A monster can break out of a web, they cannot get to you if you ddoor..

Actions do not become wrong AFTER the devs make a change.... The devs make a change BECAUSE the actions were wrong to begin with.

Firewall-ddoor = exploit... hence the change.

[Eladrin]

I refuse... I will only use "Get to the Choppa!!!!"

Well played. Well played.

[vVAnjilaVv]

/perception check

roll 1 ...-12 = -11 FAILURE

sense joke FAILED/

sorry about that, i just get tired of hearing how i should play my casters WF.

and dont get me wrong im happy to see the exploity fw/dd go bye-bye, but im not happy with casters getting even more pidgonholed

Totally accepted....it happens easily on the forums....in fact I think you get an automatic -4 to your perception checks whenever it involves nerfs....ermm I mean fixes.

While I love my wf'ed's of all classes, my drow casters rock too.....it's about the only two races I will make a sorc/wiz in tho.........drow is max casting stat, wf'ed is a little lower DC but much higher survivability.

Humans are nice if u don't have drow unlocked or do not have access to WF'ed, but they just seem in between...the way I see it is either go for the max DC or the survivability. Of course it really comes down to what u want which many times helps you excel, no matter what your racial choice is.

[Zaodan]

Is it an advantage? Yes.

Is it exploitative? That is, an exploit? Yes. Why? Because you can't do the same.

According to the Terms of Use, its not an exploit.

I am not an idiot, I know there is a word in English "exploit" which has non-DDO-TOS meaning. And I know you're using that term. But, alas, we are in fact talking about DDO, and the TOS-meaning is what applies.

So, its not "An Exploit (tm)." And I've proven that, because I posted how to do it in this thread, and a mod has not edited it out, nor have they banned me, and that is EXACTLY what would happen if it was "An Exploit (tm)".

I will agree this is is more akin to Evasion in heavy armor. Just a problem with the design of DDO, and nothing at fault with the players who were evading in heavy armor. Turbine made a change, and no one was banned, nor was anyone prevented from saying on the forums "You can evade in heavy armor" when it worked. It was not "An Exploit (tm)" it was simply a design Turbine didnt like.

This change, however, seems unintended, but we don't know for sure. But even if it is, I think Turbine should make DDoor exempt from this change, since the nerf to Firewall will still nullify this tactic anyway.

[Thrudh]

am I going to hesitate to get up in a devil's nuts to dance him?

Best phrase of the month.